Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Joe Meiring  
#1 Posted : 15 March 2020 17:21:40(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
I recentky received some c track wifh really badly rusted centre studs. Outer rails are fine though. Can I use smooth emery paper/sanding sheets to remove the rust on the studs only? Do I have to coat the studs afterwards to stop/slow down further rusting? if so, What do i use?
thanx for any suggestions, Joe M
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Joe Meiring
Offline Copenhagen  
#2 Posted : 15 March 2020 20:33:10(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 50
Yes, you can use fine emery paper to remove the rust. When the rust is removed only ordinary track cleaning is needed (maybe combined with a stick of graphite carefully rubbed on problematic studs/pieces of track).
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by Copenhagen
Offline RayF  
#3 Posted : 15 March 2020 21:28:13(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,694
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Instead of emery paper I use a track cleaning rubber. It's enough to clean the very tip of the studs as that is all that's in contact with the sliders.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Joe Meiring  
#4 Posted : 15 March 2020 22:36:39(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Instead of emery paper I use a track cleaning rubber. It's enough to clean the very tip of the studs as that is all that's in contact with the sliders.

Thanks Ray...I have one of those track cleaning rubbers! Are you supposed to apply some sort of "sealer" on the studs to prevent further oxidation/rust after cleaning the studs?
The rails themselves look perfect after a good clean wifh my track cleaning car fitted with those cleaning pads!
Thanks, Joe
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Joe Meiring
Offline RayF  
#5 Posted : 15 March 2020 22:58:53(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,694
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Instead of emery paper I use a track cleaning rubber. It's enough to clean the very tip of the studs as that is all that's in contact with the sliders.

Thanks Ray...I have one of those track cleaning rubbers! Are you supposed to apply some sort of "sealer" on the studs to prevent further oxidation/rust after cleaning the studs?
The rails themselves look perfect after a good clean wifh my track cleaning car fitted with those cleaning pads!
Thanks, Joe


In my experience the best maintenance is to run trains regularly. The sliders will keep the ends of the studs nice and shiny!

I don't think you can apply any kind of sealer without blocking the electrical connection.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline jvuye  
#6 Posted : 15 March 2020 23:48:41(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,838
Location: South Western France
All good suggestions above.
I may just want to add a trick I've used since I had water deluge (plugged AC system...) raining on some of my tin plate coaches .
It was suggested to use the smoke fluid as a cleaner and rust blocker.
I was first a bit skeptical...but I had nothing to loose trying it...Wink
I can confirm it does both and the few affected vehicles are all doing fine today.
And now I'm also using it on C-track and K-track pukos, and when renovating M-track (as far as pre-war vintage!) for clean up.

They sell in relatively large containers, so it seems that the one I have will last a lifetime.

Hope this helps
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 8 users liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline Joe Meiring  
#7 Posted : 16 March 2020 07:22:32(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
All good suggestions above.
I may just want to add a trick I've used since I had water deluge (plugged AC system...) raining on some of my tin plate coaches .
It was suggested to use the smoke fluid as a cleaner and rust blocker.
I was first a bit skeptical...but I had nothing to loose trying it...Wink
I can confirm it does both and the few affected vehicles are all doing fine today.
And now I'm also using it on C-track and K-track pukos, and when renovating M-track (as far as pre-war vintage!) for clean up.

They sell in relatively large containers, so it seems that the one I have will last a lifetime.

Hope this helps

Oh great.... wil definitely try the smoke fluid!!.....
Thanx, Joe

Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Joe Meiring
Offline Drongo  
#8 Posted : 16 March 2020 12:56:04(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,054
Location: Sydney, NSW
This has been the bane of my model train experience. you mention that the outer rails haven't rusted and they need to carry the return current, so why in the hell don't they make the centre pukos out of the same metal ? Can anyone please explain this ? If someone mentions the cost factor, I'll scream - as the hobby costs a lot to start with, then why short charge the whole situation with one of the major components with a cheap part ?
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Website - www.simplesite.com/gregstrain
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Drongo
Offline AshleyH  
#9 Posted : 16 March 2020 13:39:33(UTC)
AshleyH

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 672
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset
The outer rails of track are made of rust free steel, presumably stainless steel.
I think that this would be too soft a metal for the centre studs, the friction wear from the solid pickup shoes would wear down the studs too quickly.
I guess it is not possible to have hardened rust proof steel, at least not at an economic price for mass production?
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by AshleyH
Offline kimballthurlow  
#10 Posted : 16 March 2020 23:29:24(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5,839
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
This has been the bane of my model train experience. you mention that the outer rails haven't rusted and they need to carry the return current, so why in the hell don't they make the centre pukos out of the same metal ? Can anyone please explain this ? If someone mentions the cost factor, I'll scream - as the hobby costs a lot to start with, then why short charge the whole situation with one of the major components with a cheap part ?


Hi Greg,

With my fairly rudimentary knowledge of the properties of metals, I think I have an answer.
I too have the same bane.

The centre pukos are made of what may be called black iron (which tarnishes easily).
Black iron is a fairly soft (usually sheeeted) metal at the low level of the elaborately transformed part of the manufacture spectrum.
This is not steel, or stainless steel, both of which are harder.
Rolling wheels can run on hard steel without destructive wear in the medium to long term, hence the use of stainless steel for the rails.

The Märklin slider pick-up is also made of soft metal, I believe mostly brass, but the later ones also seem to be a spring metal of some sort
Sliding along a soft metal reduces the wear of both the puko and the slider - soft on soft, if that makes sense.
And soft on soft is used to enhance the electrical conductivity of the two metals, which make contact over a very small surface area like 1mm square.

If you substitute stainless steel as the centre puko material, you would soon wear a groove (or worse - an elongated hole) in the pick-up slider.

Kimball

Edited by user 17 March 2020 03:54:50(UTC)  | Reason: enhanced some sense

HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline applor  
#11 Posted : 16 March 2020 23:54:31(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,494
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Keeping humidity low is critical in preventing rust and degradation of the centre stud - This means a de-humidifier in summer and wet weather for us Aussies.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by applor
Offline jvuye  
#12 Posted : 17 March 2020 01:33:06(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,838
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: AshleyH Go to Quoted Post
...
I guess it is not possible to have hardened rust proof steel, at least not at an economic price for mass production?


Yes. But at least they have been "blackened" by an electro-chemical plating process , which both provides a reasonable level of rust protection, all the while preserving electrical conductivity.
It also makes them less conspicuous when pointing in the middle of the track!

Cheers
Jacques

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline kimballthurlow  
#13 Posted : 17 March 2020 04:01:49(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5,839
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Yes, you can use fine emery paper to remove the rust. When the rust is removed only ordinary track cleaning is needed (maybe combined with a stick of graphite carefully rubbed on problematic studs/pieces of track).


Knowing how well graphite works as a lubricant, I phoned my local industrial supplier and enquired about said graphite stick.
The only graphite they sell is powdered (used by locksmiths for key and lock) or in bandage form used in some sort of linishing machine.

So I tried my carpenters pencil (made by Staedtler) and that seems to work OK on the C track pukos.
I will buy a couple more carpenters pencils. These are a flat broad (3mm) graphite stick embedded in wood, unlike the office pencil which is rounded 1-1.5mm graphite.
I believe the best graphite comes from Outer Mongolia.
If anyone asks me to investigate the source of this substance, I might be persuaded to travel there - for the right amount of remuneration of course.

Kimball

Edited by user 19 March 2020 21:08:06(UTC)  | Reason: spelling correction

HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline Joe Meiring  
#14 Posted : 17 March 2020 08:39:18(UTC)
Joe Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 93
Location: Fish Hoek, Cape Town
Thanx Kimball... Just waiting for the virus pandemic to subside then we off to holiday in Outer Mongolia!
😂😂
Medium digital C track layout with MS2: When I grow up I want to be a steam engine driver....
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Joe Meiring
Offline applor  
#15 Posted : 19 March 2020 06:22:31(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,494
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
You can buy Graphite sticks on ebay from China, cheap. That's where I got mine.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by applor
Offline Tom Jessop  
#16 Posted : 19 March 2020 21:49:19(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 836
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia





Try a Artist's supply shop for various size & hardness . I have seen ads for https://www.eckersleys.c.../index/state/Queensland/ They have some stores in other states especially the east coast of Oz , I have one about 4 kms from me .




Cheers Tom in Oz .
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Tom Jessop
Offline Dave Banks  
#17 Posted : 20 March 2020 00:32:15(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 971
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Tom thanks for that. The one on the Gold Coast in Labrador is only 5km away from me. I am going to give it a try.


D.A.Banks
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Dave Banks
Offline Tom Jessop  
#18 Posted : 20 March 2020 01:41:19(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 836
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia



Mans worst enemy is having to go shopping with SWMBO when the shops are fabric / sewing / dainty hobby stuff but always worthwhile once a blue moon to check it out with her as there are many things that could be used in building the layout , scenery etc at more sensible prices than our hobby stores .


Cheers Tom in Oz.
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by Tom Jessop
Offline kiwiAlan  
#19 Posted : 20 March 2020 09:37:40(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,153
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Tom Jessop Go to Quoted Post

Mans worst enemy is having to go shopping with SWMBO when the shops are fabric / sewing / dainty hobby stuff ...


I am glad to see that I am not the only one suffering this ...

But my youngest sister sent us this cartoon the other day ...

FB_IMG_1582486894475.jpg

thanks 3 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline Drongo  
#20 Posted : 22 March 2020 10:52:20(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,054
Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
This has been the bane of my model train experience. you mention that the outer rails haven't rusted and they need to carry the return current, so why in the hell don't they make the centre pukos out of the same metal ? Can anyone please explain this ? If someone mentions the cost factor, I'll scream - as the hobby costs a lot to start with, then why short charge the whole situation with one of the major components with a cheap part ?


Hi Greg,

With my fairly rudimentary knowledge of the properties of metals, I think I have an answer.
I too have the same bane.

The centre pukos are made of what may be called black iron (which tarnishes easily).
Black iron is a fairly soft (usually sheeeted) metal at the low level of the elaborately transformed part of the manufacture spectrum.
This is not steel, or stainless steel, both of which are harder.
Rolling wheels can run on hard steel without destructive wear in the medium to long term, hence the use of stainless steel for the rails.

The Märklin slider pick-up is also made of soft metal, I believe mostly brass, but the later ones also seem to be a spring metal of some sort
Sliding along a soft metal reduces the wear of both the puko and the slider - soft on soft, if that makes sense.
And soft on soft is used to enhance the electrical conductivity of the two metals, which make contact over a very small surface area like 1mm square.

If you substitute stainless steel as the centre puko material, you would soon wear a groove (or worse - an elongated hole) in the pick-up slider.

Kimball


Hi Kimball, thanks for the explanation. I understand exactly what you mean, however, spring steel for the pickup shoe is pretty hard, and if the pukos are made of spring steel, then it's spring steel on spring steel which is the same as soft on soft. The same hardness on each other won't change the degree of wear. Am I wrong ?

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Website - www.simplesite.com/gregstrain
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Drongo
Offline kiwiAlan  
#21 Posted : 23 March 2020 00:04:59(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,153
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post

Hi Kimball, thanks for the explanation. I understand exactly what you mean, however, spring steel for the pickup shoe is pretty hard, and if the pukos are made of spring steel, then it's spring steel on spring steel which is the same as soft on soft. The same hardness on each other won't change the degree of wear. Am I wrong ?

Regards
Greg


The pickup shoe slider has always been nickel plated brass in my experience.
Offline kimballthurlow  
#22 Posted : 23 March 2020 00:38:34(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5,839
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
...

Hi Kimball, thanks for the explanation. I understand exactly what you mean, however, spring steel for the pickup shoe is pretty hard, and if the pukos are made of spring steel, then it's spring steel on spring steel which is the same as soft on soft. The same hardness on each other won't change the degree of wear. Am I wrong ?

Regards
Greg


Hi Greg,
As Alan mentioned, the sliders were originally plated brass (likely).
So the plating was likely as hard (or harder than) the pukos, which is why so many collectors/users are interested in how badly the plating wears off.
In which case you replace the slider.

Yes spring steel would be harder than the pukos in my estimation.
Maybe that is the secret: the slider has to be "slightly" harder than the puko to maintain electrical continuity.

I am going to pursue the graphite stick or pencil - that appeals to me after preliminary tests.

regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline lewistrain  
#23 Posted : 24 March 2020 06:12:06(UTC)
lewistrain

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 73
Location: New South Wales, Sydney
Hey gents i purchased a large quantity of C track with rusty puckos and used Lanolin top and bottom (not WD40 or similar) to stop the rust and seal up the steel.
Then i went over the puckos with a track rubber, this has yielded excellent results.

A graphite stick as mentioned before is an awesome idea and also works very well after you have removed the rust with the rubber.

The lanolin is amazing at coating and protecting metals, it will dry out and leave a smooth protective film which shouldnt be a problem for dust in the future.

I applied this method to over 400 bits of track and am very happy with the results.

Please be sure to use lanolin and not WD or similar.

LOLOLOL they are just toys, grow up and play with them.
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by lewistrain
Offline Tom Jessop  
#24 Posted : 24 March 2020 21:42:42(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 836
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia



Is the Lanolin a paste or spray can dispenser & where did you buy it from ? I am up in Newcastle .


Cheers Tom in Oz .
Offline applor  
#25 Posted : 27 March 2020 00:15:37(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,494
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post

Yes spring steel would be harder than the pukos in my estimation.
Maybe that is the secret: the slider has to be "slightly" harder than the puko to maintain electrical continuity.

Kimball


My own fabricated sliders made with brass sheet work perfectly.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by applor
Offline lewistrain  
#26 Posted : 28 March 2020 03:48:01(UTC)
lewistrain

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 73
Location: New South Wales, Sydney
Originally Posted by: Tom Jessop Go to Quoted Post



Is the Lanolin a paste or spray can dispenser & where did you buy it from ? I am up in Newcastle .


Cheers Tom in Oz .


Tom you can score a spray tin of magic sheep grease (lanolin) from bunnings.

i am fairly certain blackwoods carries is and also many auto stores like repco, autobahn and supercheap.

if you want to see how well it work spray half a peice of rusty or clean steel in lanolin, then place it in salt water for a week. you will be able to clearly see the difference between sprayed and unsprayed.
LOLOLOL they are just toys, grow up and play with them.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by lewistrain
Jay
Offline Tom Jessop  
#27 Posted : 29 March 2020 07:42:00(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 836
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia


Looks like a trip to Bunnings then about 1 km up the rd at Boolaroo .
Offline Drongo  
#28 Posted : 30 March 2020 11:53:10(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,054
Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: Tom Jessop Go to Quoted Post


Looks like a trip to Bunnings then about 1 km up the rd at Boolaroo .


You better hurry Tom, aunty Gladys is planning on closing all Bunnings store in NSW.
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Website - www.simplesite.com/gregstrain
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Drongo
Offline Michael4  
#29 Posted : 30 March 2020 12:25:32(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 412
Location: England, South Coast
The brand 'Fluid Film' is lanolin based, it comes in cans or sprays. I have used it on classic cars (and boats) and it is very, very good at preventing rust.

BUT

It is meant to creep. In other words it will creep into welded seams or into wire rope and do a very effective job

It never dries. Well it must at some point but part of its success is that it stays liquid...ish.

HOWEVER

I would see it as industrial, fishermen use it on winches, the armed forces use it, farmers use it. Never tried it on a small scale.

It is common in the US, where it comes from, but hard to find in the UK. Not a clue about availability in Aus/NZ


thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Michael4
Offline Tom Jessop  
#30 Posted : 30 March 2020 12:47:13(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 836
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia



If Bunnings are closed for the play season I am sure my wife has some unwashed wool straight from the sheep some where hidden in her stash's. Might have to go sniffing around when she is out to see what I might find .
Offline DaleSchultz  
#31 Posted : 30 March 2020 15:45:46(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,398
really guys, please do not leave home to buy items. Dammit.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2020, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 1.067 seconds.