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Offline morsing  
#1 Posted : 01 October 2019 09:42:37(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Hi,

Are the points motors 74491 still so un-reliable that I really need to spend the effort measuring and cutting out holes under every point?

Thanks
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3
6m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline Danlake  
#2 Posted : 01 October 2019 09:58:33(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,448
Hi Morsing,

If you have modified the turnouts by shorting the shut off mechanism AND don't plan to ballast down the C tracks permanently I wouldn't bother.

If you have not modified the turnouts or are planning to screw/ballast the tracks I would make access holes.

Been running my layout the last 5 years (after having done the modifications) and have not had any failures so far.

Best Regards
Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline morsing  
#3 Posted : 01 October 2019 10:13:38(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Is there any downside to that fix?

I do plan to ballast is down. Would the fix mean I could still ballast without holes?

P.S. Apparantly I can't post in the next 19 seconds.
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3
6m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline Danlake  
#4 Posted : 01 October 2019 11:28:57(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,448
Only downside to doing the turnout modification is the risk of burning out the solenoids. Can’t really happened if you control them Digital, but if you operate it manually via a push button and accidentally kept it energised for 3-4 sec you may destroy it.

I would highly recommend to do the modification, and I know many other users here have done the same. And if you do so I wouldn’t bother making backup access holes in your baseboard.

Best Regards
Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline hxmiesa  
#5 Posted : 01 October 2019 14:12:51(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,726
Location: Spain
I would cut the holes. Now is the time to do so. Later, when everything is wired up and glued down, it will be much too difficult.
Of course it depends on how many points we are talking about; Maybe you can make the holes just where they are most needed.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline morsing  
#6 Posted : 01 October 2019 14:14:27(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire

I think you also lose feedback ability if you wanted to use that at some point.

So how big do the holes need to be? And shape?

Thanks
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3
6m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline michelvr  
#7 Posted : 01 October 2019 17:19:39(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Hello Morsing,

Make a template! You'll get the ideas from my picture, just create one like that and away you go! The template has to be narrower that the turnout, very important!


To make my life easier I created a template for the holes. Having the template make the job of lining up the locations very easily as I needed to make close to fifty of them. If you are not sure how to make them. 1. mark the location. 2. Drill two pilot holes. 3. With a jigsaw, saw out the whole. 4. Done!



DE6B2CC9-FECA-49E8-89B2-483C80DB83B1.jpeg2DC5BEAE-3D42-4BA7-B20D-69A4DFBA690F.jpeg
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Offline Thewolf  
#8 Posted : 01 October 2019 20:36:23(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,633
Location: Longueuil-Canada
Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post
Hello Morsing,

Make a template! You'll get the ideas from my picture, just create one like that and away you go! The template has to be narrower that the turnout, very important!


To make my life easier I created a template for the holes. Having the template make the job of lining up the locations very easily as I needed to make close to fifty of them. If you are not sure how to make them. 1. mark the location. 2. Drill two pilot holes. 3. With a jigsaw, saw out the whole. 4. Done!



DE6B2CC9-FECA-49E8-89B2-483C80DB83B1.jpeg2DC5BEAE-3D42-4BA7-B20D-69A4DFBA690F.jpeg


Hi Michel Cool

I suppose you have a valid reason not to use the internal decoders 74460-74461 -74462.

I would like to know what is the reason? A question of cost?

Thank you

Serge
Project Laurentides-Neudstadt-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
Offline Minok  
#9 Posted : 01 October 2019 21:51:09(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,049
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post

I think you also lose feedback ability if you wanted to use that at some point.

So how big do the holes need to be? And shape?

Thanks


Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post

DE6B2CC9-FECA-49E8-89B2-483C80DB83B1.jpeg


The template idea is good, but rather than cutting out the holes from the template in full, maybe just drill out the 4 corners of the trapezoid that is the template location. Then from below you can see where the hole would need to be, if ever you needed to cut it out (say with an oscillating saw) but if you don't need them you only have 4 holes per turnout in the baseboard.

If you ballast the c-track and use a normal PVA white glue, that will always be water soluble, so if you need you can later spray down some water to soften the ballast and pull it up enough to be able to get the track out again. So its not an irreversible thing to never being able to pull up the ballast and c-track in that case.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
Offline michelvr  
#10 Posted : 01 October 2019 22:37:04(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Originally Posted by: Thewolf Go to Quoted Post


Hi Michel Cool

I suppose you have a valid reason not to use the internal decoders 74460-74461 -74462.

I would like to know what is the reason? A question of cost?

Thank you

Serge


Hello Serge,

I have the ESU SwtichPilots which makes it very easy to wire up!

Don't forget once you buy DCC equipment you have it for life and, "Life is great with the ESU SwitchPilots!"

You read it here first so if ESU ever uses that slogan they stole it from me!BigGrin

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Offline Thewolf  
#11 Posted : 01 October 2019 23:04:18(UTC)
Thewolf

Canada   
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,633
Location: Longueuil-Canada
Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Thewolf Go to Quoted Post


Hi Michel Cool

I suppose you have a valid reason not to use the internal decoders 74460-74461 -74462.

I would like to know what is the reason? A question of cost?

Thank you

Serge


Hello Serge,

I have the ESU SwtichPilots which makes it very easy to wire up!

Don't forget once you buy DCC equipment you have it for life and, "Life is great with the ESU SwitchPilots!"

You read it here first so if ESU ever uses that slogan they stole it from me!BigGrin



I don't know esu switch pilot. I know ESu has a power station, ECOS I think
Project Laurentides-Neudstadt-CS2-Track C- Itrain-Digital
Offline river6109  
#12 Posted : 02 October 2019 06:01:47(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,579
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
In the early stage of my layout construction I've used about 100 turnout motors and most of them didn't work properly: a.) the baseplate was to thick, b.) the under board mechanism wasn't firm enough and when the turnout motor was off the tongue could move., When ESU came out with the turnout motors (could use them for other purposes as well), the original hole for the turnout motor was handy, all I had to do is secure the new motor underneath the board, the height didn't matter, the movement from left to right has a programmable speed adjustment, it can be integrated with your digital system (track plan), and I used part of the under board mechanism (the top cover). sold all my motor solenoids, all my K83's and I don't look back at the cost or the refitting of the new motors, I haven't had one failure,the tongue moves to the required position and stays there.

I have some C-track turnouts and 1 day I will exchange them for ESU servo motors as well.

It wasn't a cheap exercise but at least it works

my other project was (found out later) the Switch pilot module doesn't have any connections whereas you can switch the servo motor via a sensor (reed contact, switching track, reflective opto coupler) so I got help from an ESU forum member how to fix the problem, I made up a small electronic circuit board, bought myself some battery wires with plugs, opto couplers and started putting it all together. the voltage from the pins on the Switch pilot module is 5 Volts and there are 8 of them, which means the module has the ability to connect for servo motors to the module and the 8 pins are divided into 2 x 4 = 2 = left or right hand turn., the 2 wires go to the one side of opto coupler (5 Volts DC) and on the other side you have 18 Volt AC., the 2 AC wires can than be connected to any of the sensors.

the blue connectors on the circuit board, each 2 represent a turnout (left or right hand turn), the yellow plug: 18 Volt AC

John

ESU switch pilot.JPG
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline David Dewar  
#13 Posted : 02 October 2019 11:21:50(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,739
Location: Scotland
I just use the Marklin decoders so no holes or problems. Did have one failure over the years but other wise just keep clean as I dont screw down the turnouts.
No need to crawl under the layout which is a bonus.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#14 Posted : 02 October 2019 12:55:24(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 555
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Only downside to doing the turnout modification is the risk of burning out the solenoids. Can’t really happened if you control them Digital, but if you operate it manually via a push button and accidentally kept it energised for 3-4 sec you may destroy it.

I would highly recommend to do the modification, and I know many other users here have done the same. And if you do so I wouldn’t bother making backup access holes in your baseboard.

Best Regards
Lasse


Hi

If you add balast/ glue to your lay-out I would recommend to do the cut-out. Even with shorted micro switches on the solenoids it may burn (also with digital).
My layout includes approx 45 switches, double-slips, etc and once a year or so I have a solenoid issue.
When you have a nice scenery, it is a problem to have to remove one meter of track to access the switch and with time C track becomes brittle and may break after 5 years or more.
When doing the cut-out don't make then too small especially around the screws, the latch and the connector
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline Minok  
#15 Posted : 04 October 2019 00:39:18(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,049
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post


When you have a nice scenery, it is a problem to have to remove one meter of track to access the switch and with time C track becomes brittle and may break after 5 years or more.
When doing the cut-out don't make then too small especially around the screws, the latch and the connector
Cheers
Jean


Question: if the plastic of the c-track becomes so brittle that removing the track from above to service it becomes an issue for breaking the track, then isn't the same brittle state a problem for the screw holes that attach the motor and decoder to the turnout body internally? Are those posts you screw into not also at high risk of cracking and breaking when you unscrew and then re-screw in to mount/remount the motors?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline PMPeter  
#16 Posted : 04 October 2019 04:11:47(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 982
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post


Question: if the plastic of the c-track becomes so brittle that removing the track from above to service it becomes an issue for breaking the track, then isn't the same brittle state a problem for the screw holes that attach the motor and decoder to the turnout body internally? Are those posts you screw into not also at high risk of cracking and breaking when you unscrew and then re-screw in to mount/remount the motors?


That certainly is the case with the old 90s early 2000s C- track. Fresh out of the box turnouts of that vintage would not let me mount a turnout motor when I bought them in 2013. The screw posts immediately cracked. Used turnouts of the same age with turnout motors already installed would not hold up to unmounting the motor without the posts cracking when I tried to get the motors out to short out the microswitch.

Another reason why I switched to K-track and servos.

Peter
Offline JohnjeanB  
#17 Posted : 04 October 2019 09:52:02(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 555
Location: Paris, France
Hi Peter , Minok
Yes the aging process is slowed down but even after 5 years (manufactured in 2014) it becomes brittle but not as bad as pre 2002 stuff
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline morsing  
#18 Posted : 04 October 2019 09:53:12(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 424
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Quite amazing a company like Marklin don't research these materials before starting to use them...
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3
6m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline michelvr  
#19 Posted : 04 October 2019 15:44:16(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,030
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
Quite amazing a company like Marklin don't research these materials before starting to use them...



I had three pieces of Märklin C track shatter into pieces and all I did was drill two tiny pilot holes into them. To be honest I was not happy! This is all new track, bought in the last year.
Offline RayF  
#20 Posted : 04 October 2019 16:07:33(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,440
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
The results of environmental effects on plastics is a complex issue. Some plastics last forever, while some degrade seriously when exposed to external factors such as heat, light and humidity.

I've had few problems with recent track pieces, but it's impossible to guarantee the performance of all plastic items when you don't know how and where they have been stored.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Minok  
#21 Posted : 04 October 2019 23:21:40(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,049
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Plastics are a difficult product for long term stability indeed.

We all know all to well the limited life of soft foam products and that the softening attributes that enable them foam to be soft to begin with become an ticking time bomb so that after 10 years the stuff turns to a sticky goo that just disintegrates. Be it track underlayment or the seals in my 1994 car's ventilation system.

Harder soft plastics or synthetic rubbers also devolve over time. My old Sony Hi8 HandyCam has some soft 'rubber' grip surfaces that have turned into a tacky mess as that plastic slowly turns to goo. Its exposure to air that is the cause most of the time, or parts that are in air, and heat just can affect the rate at which you get to the bad place.

So it is curious that some plastics seem to hold up better, for example the harder ones like is used in K-track but there must be some manufacturing/molding attribute that makes those same versions not suited for use in C-track molds that they had to go with a different type.

Right now I'm still in the planning phases of a c-track layout (there are aspects of C track I just love that I can live with the some of the downsides), but as its slow to plan, I'll soon also have some of the c-track I purchased for some initial layout testing and for holiday tree layouts, that will soon be getting a bit older. My 29000 starter set, the oldest c-track I own, got sent my way in February 2016, so 3.5 years old. I guess I can start 'testing' it for brittleness and in the end, may switch to k-track if it dissapoints.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline dickinsonj  
#22 Posted : 05 October 2019 02:55:15(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,171
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
My 29000 starter set, the oldest c-track I own, got sent my way in February 2016, so 3.5 years old. I guess I can start 'testing' it for brittleness and in the end, may switch to k-track if it disappoints.


My older formulation C track has mostly all failed at this point and I have replaced most of it with newer track. Like you I prefer C track and I love how smoothly my trains run on it. So far so good for me, as I have not had any of the newer C track fail. I definitely hope that continues because replacing hundreds of pieces of track was not inexpensive and if this starts failing I will be quite upset and probably looking for a new hobby.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline Drongo  
#23 Posted : 05 October 2019 15:04:59(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,018
Location: Sydney, NSW
Plastics that break down quickly usually don't have enough UV stabilizer in it. Sometimes manufacturers don't add the UV stabilizer to cut costs. Also, the brittleness of a plastic comes from the polymerizing process - the longer the polymer the more brittle the plastic. However, some plastics are quite flexible and this is usually due to their molecular structure e.g. Polycarbonate has a benzine ring structure which gives it the unbreakable nature and flexibility. Acrylic, (or polymethacrylate) has a very good resistance to weathering however it doesn't have as good an impact as polycarbonate. This discussion on plastics could go on for years, however the bottom line is the bottom line - manufacturing to a price, not a quality - modern times.
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Website - www.simplesite.com/gregstrain
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Offline TEEWolf  
#24 Posted : 05 October 2019 22:26:39(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,934
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
Plastics that break down quickly usually don't have enough UV stabilizer in it. Sometimes manufacturers don't add the UV stabilizer to cut costs. Also, the brittleness of a plastic comes from the polymerizing process - the longer the polymer the more brittle the plastic. However, some plastics are quite flexible and this is usually due to their molecular structure e.g. Polycarbonate has a benzine ring structure which gives it the unbreakable nature and flexibility. Acrylic, (or polymethacrylate) has a very good resistance to weathering however it doesn't have as good an impact as polycarbonate. This discussion on plastics could go on for years, however the bottom line is the bottom line - manufacturing to a price, not a quality - modern times.


Although in German it tells which "plastic" material Maerklin are using for its c-tracks and as they are marked.

https://www.maerklin-h0-...h0-gleissysteme/#CGVW_19

scroll down to point # 9 "Das C-Gleis" and then further down to the section named "Kariesgleis"

=

„Caries track“
 
The plastic used in the first years of C-track production was sometimes very brittle from batch to batch. The plasticizer evaporated and the tracks tended to break off and "crumble", which earned them the nickname "caries track".
As a rule of thumb, one can assume that productions before the year 2000 are affected, presumably those of 1996/97 completely, but there is no reliable documentation. Until 2004, Märklin offered an exchange campaign for broken C track material.
Since around 2002, the company has switched to BASF's Luran® S plastic, which is based on ASA (acrylester-styrene-acrylonitrile copolymer). Standard tracks (no functional tracks and switches) have been embossed with "ASA" since then. Productions from 2004 onwards are considered completely harmless. The year of production is marked on the underside of the bedding.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
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Offline Minok  
#25 Posted : 05 October 2019 23:50:42(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,049
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Kariesgleis translates to „cavities track“.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
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