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Offline woj  
#1 Posted : 01 July 2019 13:57:50(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
Hi there,

(Apologies for a long post).

I haven't been here for very long time, my old layout was deconstructed in 2011 and since then is resting nicely in my cellar. But now there is a prospect of resurrection. It's not going to be the same, and I see some things in digital control have changed, so I am now doing my homework for my future layout (it will not come to be in at least next two years, but I already have an idea for a track plan).

So, down to my question. The plan is to control everything solely by Railuino / CAN-bus (well, that's not even the complete story, but let's leave it at that). My old layout was run with MS1 from a starter set and the ugly box, I think the whole thing was rated at 1A or something, I was able to run two trains at the same time (one fully lit from the tracks). The trains are all rather modern. I know that the 60116 box to which Railuino would be connected is capable of 1.9A so I should be able to run my complete new layout with one control box, especially if I connect switches / turnouts / etc. to a separate power supply. But, if that fails (it may, see the numbers down below), I'd need to segment it. I know that the booster does not work with 60116, and I know I can connect the Delta box as a booster, that much I have already figured out.

But now that I have read this and that - what prevents me from connecting two or three 60116 control boxes to separate segments of the layout and bridging their CAN-bus connections all into one Railuno device? After all, that's what CAN-bus is for. I could even skip a separate power to switches / turnouts, as each segment should have enough juice to power everything attached to it. If not, what other options do I have to beef up the power without using CS2/3 with a booster?

The layout is initially planned to be: (a) hidden station level, total of ~20m running track, 6 turnouts, 4 parking lanes for trains, (b) main level, total of ~20m running track, 9-10 turnouts, one turn table, (c) top level, closing loop with no turnouts, total of ~14m running track. (a) would have 1 train operational at a time, (b) 2 trains at a time, (c) 2 trains at a time.

Supplemental question: would my MS1 plug into 60116 control box? That is, does it have the same plug as MS2? And if, will it work?
Offline woj  
#2 Posted : 01 July 2019 21:15:02(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
Did some more reading and some things cleared out. Nevertheless, a supplemental question, put aside Railuino, assume a simple MS2 + 60116 / 60113 setup. What prevents me from connecting a terminal box 60125 / 60145 to 60116's second port and then connect the booster to one of the terminal outputs? Will the booster not function properly without CS? Does it have to initialize itself with some protocol to CS before it can function?
Offline TEEWolf  
#3 Posted : 02 July 2019 00:44:44(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: woj Go to Quoted Post
Did some more reading and some things cleared out. Nevertheless, a supplemental question, put aside Railuino, assume a simple MS2 + 60116 / 60113 setup. What prevents me from connecting a terminal box 60125 / 60145 to 60116's second port and then connect the booster to one of the terminal outputs? Will the booster not function properly without CS? Does it have to initialize itself with some protocol to CS before it can function?


Connecting a booster (60175) with a track box (60116) (if the socket and the plug would fit together - I do not know and did not test it) then your system will be blown up. I do not use a seperate booster because I got a CS 3+. But read in the manual of a booster

https://static.maerklin....e6c399e0cc1531979789.pdf

1. Safty Notes, form top down to 5th dash:

"Power consumption areas must be separated from each other, i.e. the track areas for the Central Station and for one or more Boosters must be separately electrically from each other. ..."

The track box is a power consumption area.

Get an overview about Märklin digital by the systems architecture from Märklin.

https://www.maerklin.de/...emarchitektur_gesamt.pdf

BTW with the update 3.5.5. for the MS 2 came an update for the track box as well. Read the thread here at marklin-users.net about these updates.

https://www.marklin-user...-for-32-Function-support

Be aware about post #41 and #43.

Are you able to read the German language? The Internet is full with articles in German about Railuino, etc. Just one link here:

http://www.skrauss.de/mo...lbahn/gbox_projekte.html








Offline woj  
#4 Posted : 02 July 2019 11:09:41(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
Thanks for the tips. Especially the one about MS2 update I missed. Stefan's page I have found already and even though German is an issue for me, Google translate does wonders.

Let's put aside Railuino itself, I do not consider this an issue or a problem (in fact, the important bit is that I can get the CAN signal for the track box and I am all set).

Boosting without a CS is the problem I want to have solved. It was never my intention to connect the track box and booster to one electrical segment of the track. The booster, when connected to CS, gets the CAN signal and track signal connection from it. Amplifies / separates the track signal to its track segment and talks to the CS through CAN. What is the problem of getting the signals that the booster needs from track box instead? And will the booster function without a CAN device that it can talk to and just blindly amplify / convert two ways the track signal?

The alleged support for boosters in the updated MS2 suggests that all this should be connectable. The question is how and whether somebody has tested it already? (I know the update is very fresh, so it will take a while before somebody risks their equipment to test it).

BTW, all the stories about messed up updates, corrupted / wrong files, chasing friends / shops with CS-es to update the MS, etc. etc. are the main reasons for me not to spend horrendous money on CS. Having said that, you say no booster because you have CS3+. What is the power rating of it? If it will replace me two boosters, a track box and a handful of power supplies I may reconsider it.

EDIT: Found the answer to the last question - 3/5A depending on the power supply. So let me ask another one - what is the practical added value of CS3+ over CS3?
Offline Purellum  
#5 Posted : 02 July 2019 11:23:52(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Why not just go for the 66045 Delta booster solution instead??

Buying a CS3 just to get a booster seems like an awful expensive solution to me.

Per.

Cool
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Offline woj  
#6 Posted : 02 July 2019 11:56:30(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Why not just go for the 66045 Delta booster solution instead??

Buying a CS3 just to get a booster seems like an awful expensive solution to me.

Per.

Cool


That's another option of course. I am just doing my homework for now, so that I have all this sorted out when the time comes.

If a single CS can solve all of my issues (power, automatic layout control) and relief me of extra devices / cables / etc. I can consider it.

Further reading tells me that the main difference of CS3+ over CS3 is the built in s88 module so that one can use the cheaper s88 ac/dc modules, and not the link one. Is that more or less correct?
Offline TEEWolf  
#7 Posted : 02 July 2019 17:38:58(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: woj Go to Quoted Post

That's another option of course. I am just doing my homework for now, so that I have all this sorted out when the time comes.

If a single CS can solve all of my issues (power, automatic layout control) and relief me of extra devices / cables / etc. I can consider it.

Further reading tells me that the main difference of CS3+ over CS3 is the built in s88 module so that one can use the cheaper s88 ac/dc modules, and not the link one. Is that more or less correct?


The main differences between a CS 3 and a CS 3+ is first:

both controllers ( CS 3 and CS 3+) have a booster on board - always - no difference.Smile With a CS 3 you get either 3 A or with the bigger power supply 5 A. Märklin recommends because of security reason to use always the smaller power supply with 3 A.

https://www.maerklin.de/...itched-mode-power-packs/

https://www.maerklin.de/.../Sicherheits-Vorgabe.pdf

But a MS 2 does not have a booster on board. This you have to attach seperately to the CAN bus. A CAN bus is not a signal. It is only the transportation line for the track signal.

For me the main difference is the galvanic isolation between a CS 3 and a CS 3+. the CS 3 does not have it, whereas the CS 3+ has it. That is the reason why you only can attach CS 3+ at a CS 3, whereas you can connect as many CS 3+ together as you like.

The S 88 AC socket is not the S 88 AC decoder, it is only a socket or jack to connect the decoder directly to the CS 3+. For a CS 3 you first need a L 88 link and at this link you can attach the S 88 AC and/or S 88 DC. Please study the Märklin digital architecture system I set the link in my post #3. This L 88 link is necessary, because by this decoder (well yes you have 16 own feedback contacts at a L 88) brings the CAN bus connection with the galvanic isolation also to one CS 3.

https://www.marklin-user...k-S88-and-CS3#post578837

https://www.maerklin.de/...q/Technik-Tipp-320-b.pdf

For more about the diffferences of a CS 3 and CS 3+ read another thread of this forum, please.

https://www.marklin-user...CS3-vs-CS3--which-to-get

Once I calculated the price difference between a CS 3 and a CS 3+ by offical price recommendations from Maerklin. At the end a CS 3 was only about 15 € cheaper than a CS 3+. Because of that I then bought the CS 3+ for myself.
Offline woj  
#8 Posted : 02 July 2019 20:38:22(UTC)
woj

Sweden   
Joined: 30/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 74
Location: Halmstad
All good stuff! Thanks!

Studying all this added one more variable to my equation - I have two 60VA AC transformers in my equipment collection. It would be a total waste not to use them. So yet another option would be to source a used CS2 and a matching booster and I should be good for a total of ~6A in two segments.

And I also have to see what ECoS has to offer...
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