Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

2 Pages12>
Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Danlake  
#1 Posted : 19 May 2019 09:26:10(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,522
Hi all,

An interesting editorial in the latest MRH magazine regarding solvents to use in track cleaning:

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/

** FULL LINK ADDED FOR CONVENIENCE - https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/mrhpub.com/2019-05-may/online/index.html?page=9

To recap. They have previously done studies to find out what the grey/black gunk is that accumulate on the rails and eventually will disrupt power. It’s not grease, oil, dust or leftover rubber from traction tires, but the deposits left are mainly metal oxides deposits from micro arcing as one point of the wheel makes contact with one point of the rail.

Anyway the editorial then discuss what solvents to use and why and this part I found really interesting as it appears that the majority of us might have been using the wrong solvents when cleaning the rails...

They talk about non polar or polar solvents.

From the editorial:
Apparently, polar solvent molecules get trapped in micropits of the metal surface, leaving an “electron charged” micro-scopic residue. This electron-charged polar residue encourages micro-arcing in the presence of an electrical current, quickly forming new metal oxides on the metal surfaces in electrical contact. But non-polar solvents do the reverse. They actually “protect” the metal surfaces from forming new oxides because they inhibit microarcing.

A high polar solvent is water and a medium is isopropyl alcohol. A non-polar solvents is mineral spirits, diesel, whal clipper oil and e.g. WD-40 contact cleaner.

And regarding graphite layers they found a very light, invisible, layer can improve conductive while too much will increase micro arcing as graphite itself is slightly polar.

This is the first time I hear about this and would be interested in hear users opinion who may have knowledge in this field?

If you want to read more download the free issue yourself. By the way it’s a great magazine and for a low annual subscription you can get the premium edition with extra monthly articles.

Best Regards
Lasse

Edited by moderator 02 August 2020 11:44:10(UTC)  | Reason: Added full URL

Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
thanks 16 users liked this useful post by Danlake
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 19 May 2019 10:52:20(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,139
Location: Paris, France
Hi Lasse
Many thanks for this information. I will try.
In the past I was using contact cleaner fluid w. not-too-bad results except on the Märklin 7286 turntable where the "3rd rail" is replaced with a Zamak planking w. metal coating.
Other sources tell it is capital to keep the rail surface absolutely scratch-free.

Cheers

Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline dickinsonj  
#3 Posted : 19 May 2019 15:02:01(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,357
Location: United States
Very informative - thanks for posting that Lasse.

I have often wondered if anyone knew what these deposits were or where they actually came from, with my personal suspects being oil or degrading traction tires. I have always used 60% isopropyl alcohol which does clean well but now it appears that it might also be setting me up for more problems down the road - or track in this case. BigGrin

I would also be interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this and what they might be using to clean their tracks in light of this information. Diesel fuel or mineral spirits seem like they would just gunk things up even worse, but perhaps that is not really the case. If those were my two best choices I would go with the mineral spirits, since I really hate the smell of diesel.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline PMPeter  
#4 Posted : 19 May 2019 16:12:51(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,065
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Lasse
Many thanks for this information. I will try.
In the past I was using contact cleaner fluid w. not-too-bad results except on the Märklin 7286 turntable where the "3rd rail" is replaced with a Zamak planking w. metal coating.
Other sources tell it is capital to keep the rail surface absolutely scratch-free.

Cheers

Jean


What do you use on your 7286 "3rd rail"? I have a real issue with the turntable's centre contact no matter how I try to clean it.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by PMPeter
Offline Elsleuth1  
#5 Posted : 19 May 2019 16:28:24(UTC)
Elsleuth1

United States   
Joined: 23/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 98
The article ends with this statement:


Screen Shot 2019-05-19 at 8.27.00 AM.png
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Elsleuth1
Offline costing  
#6 Posted : 19 May 2019 16:39:29(UTC)
costing

Switzerland   
Joined: 20/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 120
Location: Geneve, Geneva
I'm passing the same graphite bar on the center studs as well as on the rails themselves, helps a lot!
JMRI on RPi & DCC++ / C-track / Marklin (SBB Re 4/4 II, Ee 3/3, DB BR 24, BR 233), Roco (DB BR 103, BR 215, CFR 040-EC-001), ESU engineering (DB 265 MRCE) / Christmas car collector
Offline Minok  
#7 Posted : 20 May 2019 22:08:17(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,180
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
A key resource from the article is this table:
Capture.PNG
Source: Joe Fugate, "Keeping your track and wheels clean longer - a look at polar vs non-polar solvents", https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/ , pg. 14, May 2019

From this list, the first one that seems good to use in a cleaning car (ie you need to have gravity dispense it, not coming in an aerosol can), is Wahl Clipper Oil and mineral spirits (not sure what Neverstall is and if it comes in a non-aerosol. You would want something that is not highly flammable.

Quote:
The best solvents for track cleaning are the non-polar ones. The worst ones for track cleaning are the polar solvents! How many of us have used IPA, lacquer thinner, or acetone for track cleaning? Bad, bad!
Also notice the “wonder cures” for dirty track are all non-polar! Ah-hah!

The other thing I notice is not all electrical contact cleaners are created the same. CRC Contact Cleaner and Protectorant (do their chemists know something here? – sure sounds like it) is CRC’s lowest dielectric constant non-polar product!

While CRC 2-26 is often recommended on modeling forums for cleaning, it’s actually semi-polar. It’s far better than IPA or the like, but the CRC Contact Cleaner and Protectorant is better still. Notice, CRC QD Contact Cleaner is actually worse than IPA.

From this list you can see kerosene, WD-40 Contact Cleaner, CRC Contact Cleaner and Protectorant, Deoxit D5, Neverstall, and mineral spirits are all excellent solvents to use for cleaning track and wheels.

Solvents to avoid include: isopropyl alcohol, MEK, acetone, and lacquer thinner.

....

When applying graphite to your track to help keep the rails from microarcing, more graphite is not better! In fact, what I tell people is one quick swipe on the inside railhead is all you need [3]. You don’t want to see it. If you can see the graphite, then you have applied way too much! Just one quick swipe with moderate pressure is plenty.


-Joe Fugate, "Keeping your track and wheels clean longer - a look at polar vs non-polar solvents", https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/ , May 2019



The article on the nature of the black gunk can be found here: https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/3229

The executive summary by Joe provided is: "It appears you want to clean your track (and wheels) with a non-polar solvent and then treat the inside railhead with graphite to further reduce your frequency of cleanings. That’s about as good as it gets!"
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
thanks 9 users liked this useful post by Minok
Offline michelvr  
#8 Posted : 20 May 2019 23:36:29(UTC)
michelvr


Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,129
Hello Minok,

I use GOO GONE to clean my track. (non polar)

Not sure where GOO GONE would be on the list but it's what I use when the tracks really need a cleaning! Crying

The procedure that I follow is to first vacuum the layout track with a dusting brush attached to the hose of the vacuum. Then I squirt small amount of GOO GONE onto a tightly compressed piece of paper towel and then wipe over the rails while holding the paper towel firmly on the top of the rails. Once the layout has been cleaned then I wipe it clean with a new fresh piece of paper towel again tightly compressed together. The goal of the compressed paper towel is so that it does not break apart when running it over the rails. Once all is done then I do the last step, I run my LUX vacuum car over the whole layout. Works quite well and leaves a nice orangey fragrance.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by michelvr
Offline Jabez  
#9 Posted : 21 May 2019 00:30:26(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 636
Location: Brussels
When I first joined the marklin-users.net site some 3 years ago I recall seeing many references to (Deluxe) Track Magic rail and wheel cleaner. I think it was an Australian product. I haven't seen much reference to it since. But here is a link to another site's thread on track cleaning which mentions it.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/...ing-fluid-which-is-best/
Jabez
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Jabez
Offline dickinsonj  
#10 Posted : 21 May 2019 00:38:52(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,357
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
When I first joined the marklin-users.net site some 3 years ago I recall seeing many references to (Deluxe) Track Magic rail and wheel cleaner. I think it was an Australian product. I haven't seen much reference to it since. But here is a link to another site's thread on track cleaning which mentions it.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/...ing-fluid-which-is-best/
Jabez


Here it is: https://deluxematerials.co.uk/products/track-magic

And here is a world wide distributor's list: https://deluxematerials....collections/distributors

It is available in the US from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/D...ic-Cleaner/dp/B0076LAV0K

I am definitely going to give this a go. We all need the best conductivity on our rails and I am so glad to learn about this product. ThumpUp
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline dickinsonj  
#11 Posted : 21 May 2019 01:04:42(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,357
Location: United States
Thinking back on this, I once had a dealer tell me not to use isopropyl alcohol because it left a residue which made the problem worse in the future. I discounted this advice and now I finally see what he meant. Searching around on Amazon I found other products which make similar claims and which are recommended by buyers. I am going to try several of these and if one comes out a clear winner I will report back to the thread.

Here are some alternatives that I may also try:

https://www.amazon.com/B...ner-fl-oz/dp/B01LYUL9A0/

https://www.amazon.com/P...nhibitors/dp/B0006O8EKS/

I have cleaned wheels that looked like they were starting their own homemade traction tires! ThumbDown Now it appears that I might have been setting myself up by insisting that isopropyl alcohol was the safest, best way to go.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline kimballthurlow  
#12 Posted : 21 May 2019 01:29:06(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5,891
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Thanks for all the interesting information and ideas.

I have no idea of the chemical make-up or properties of either Marklin lubricating oil, or Wahl clipper oil.
But I use both quite extensively in one way or another (in life generally), and I notice that they have the same consistency (flow ability).

I will use either on my track.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline TEEWolf  
#13 Posted : 21 May 2019 03:10:04(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,450
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for all the interesting information and ideas.

I have no idea of the chemical make-up or properties of either Marklin lubricating oil, or Wahl clipper oil.
But I use both quite extensively in one way or another (in life generally), and I notice that they have the same consistency (flow ability).

I will use either on my track.

Kimball


Perhaps this gives you an idea for cleaning - including prices, which covers quite a variety.

https://www.allaboardexc...ep-your-track-clean.html
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by TEEWolf
Offline river6109  
#14 Posted : 21 May 2019 05:59:43(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,219
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Thinking back on this, I once had a dealer tell me not to use isopropyl alcohol because it left a residue which made the problem worse in the future. I discounted this advice and now I finally see what he meant. Searching around on Amazon I found other products which make similar claims and which are recommended by buyers. I am going to try several of these and if one comes out a clear winner I will report back to the thread.

Here are some alternatives that I may also try:

https://www.amazon.com/B...ner-fl-oz/dp/B01LYUL9A0/

https://www.amazon.com/P...nhibitors/dp/B0006O8EKS/

I have cleaned wheels that looked like they were starting their own homemade traction tires! ThumbDown Now it appears that I might have been setting myself up by insisting that isopropyl alcohol was the safest, best way to go.



when you look at their website the items aren't cheap, for instance snow making £ 17.00, I made my snow scenery from very fine tile grout for 20kg I've paid A$ 23.00 and I use an Australian product called "Gumption" (1kg) to clean the wheels for under A$ 5.00,
cleaning tracks, I haven't done for years, the garage is now dust & the track is oil free but its interesting to know about the scientific findings with a non polar solvent

John

Edited by user 23 May 2019 05:26:56(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Minok  
#15 Posted : 23 May 2019 04:27:27(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,180
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Oddly enough I came across this video on the same subject on YouTube along with a lot of bad ideas told on jest but don’t let your kids see it lest they get bad ideas.

Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
Offline Tex  
#16 Posted : 23 May 2019 05:13:56(UTC)
Tex

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 276
Location: Houston, Texas
This is an old subject , I have been using Wahl clipper oil on my m - track for many years. It is used in small amounts along with mechanical cleaning and frequent operation. I remember seeing an article many years past in the Model Railroader magazine about tests on a visitor operated layout in Tacoma , Washington which showed that automobile transmission fluid gave the best results. Tex
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Tex
Offline Danlake  
#17 Posted : 28 July 2020 11:35:12(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,522
Previously been using some low odour kerosene product and it did keep tracks clean for much longer (less black gunk on the railhead) than my old method of isopropyl, however it still smell terrible when applying and my train room would have a slight kerosene smell for a couple of days afterwards.

So been researching alternative solutions that is available down under and stumbled across a Australian modeller who had high praise for the Australian product called Inox (a bit similar to WD-40).

Upon further reading I find lots of references to the product in the slot car community. See e.g. these video (looks pretty amazing).

https://m.youtube.com/wa...b_logo&v=NnnSjyXyhrU

https://m.youtube.com/wa...154&feature=emb_logo

Anyway I am going to try this product. Anyone had experience with it?

Again, this is the idea about applying a film on the rail head that prevents arching. Inox itself is non-conductive.

Best Regards
Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Danlake
Offline xxup  
#18 Posted : 28 July 2020 12:44:19(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,055
Location: Australia
I have used Track Magic on my M-track layout for many years and it works great.. But the key is to clean the wheels when you clean the track.. Otherwise the whole exercise is pointless..
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by xxup
Offline PJMärklin  
#19 Posted : 28 July 2020 13:06:20(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,599
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Previously been using some low odour kerosene product and it did keep tracks clean for much longer (less black gunk on the railhead) than my old method of isopropyl, however it still smell terrible when applying and my train room would have a slight kerosene smell for a couple of days afterwards.

So been researching alternative solutions that is available down under and stumbled across a Australian modeller who had high praise for the Australian product called Inox (a bit similar to WD-40).

Upon further reading I find lots of references to the product in the slot car community. See e.g. these video (looks pretty amazing).

https://m.youtube.com/wa...b_logo&v=NnnSjyXyhrU

https://m.youtube.com/wa...154&feature=emb_logo

Anyway I am going to try this product. Anyone had experience with it?

Again, this is the idea about applying a film on the rail head that prevents arching. Inox itself is non-conductive.

Best Regards
Lasse



Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
... the Australian product called Inox (a bit similar to WD-40) ... Anyone had experience with it?



Hello Lasse,

Whilst I tend to use my Märklin simple track cleaning unit dry :


UserPostedImage


, when cleaning other gunk from the track I either use a cotton cloth dipped in elbow grease or a cotton cloth sprayed with this electrical contact cleaner I get from Jaycar:


UserPostedImage


(but I think any such electrical contact cleaner will do; I suspect they are all on the "good" side of this dielectric constant scale (from a post previously by Minok on this fine forum, acknowledged with thanks):


UserPostedImage


(noting your Kerosene is "best")

And to answer your question, I have had a long previous experience with "Inox" - not on my layout but on my yacht for about 30 years.

See also my April post : https://www.marklin-user...arlin-C-track#post613440

The marine environment is very harsh on electrical contacts (correct Per ?) and long ago a marine electrician put me onto this product (which he called "a tool kit in a can") - it certainly gave longevity to electrical contacts that would otherwise deteriorate in the yachting environment. I have not used it on my layout.

Maybe I should spray electrical contact cleaner on the pads of my Märklin track-cleaning unit ?

But, as Adrian just said, the other side of the equation is to also clean the wheels, otherwise they just lay any gunk back down.

Regards,

PJ
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by PJMärklin
Offline Purellum  
#20 Posted : 28 July 2020 13:53:44(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,247
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
The marine environment is very harsh on electrical contacts (correct Per ?)


Yes Laugh

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Purellum
Offline hxmiesa  
#21 Posted : 28 July 2020 14:54:12(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
Lately, I never clean my tracks. They dont seem to get dirty at all. -Even if the layout hasnt been used for months.

However, I do have "SOME" amount of black gunk build up on the wheels.
Some vehicles seems more prone to it, than others. Both locos and waggons.

I use a little WD-40 to disolve it, as it otherwise takes a long time to scrape off. (with a wooden or plastic stick!)

I always supposed the gunk to consit of; oil, dust and traction-tires. (Actually the gunk is so black and thick that it LOOKS like the traction-tires themselves...)
The gunk seems to be conductive, as the automatic block-system continues to work, even with locos who´s wheels are completly covered in gunk, so I wonder what it actually consist of¿?
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by hxmiesa
Offline Harryv40  
#22 Posted : 28 July 2020 20:23:12(UTC)
Harryv40

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 217
Location: Wilshire
Hi Everyone,
I wondered how long this subject would be raised again.

Personally I use various methods, Marklin track cleaning cars, dry or with isopropyl on them, power off!

Or WD-40 contact cleaner on a piece of felt and a dose of elbow grease.

What I have found by covering the layout with the ground cover material used in the garden supported by a dowel and wooden supports I don’t get much dust on the layout and that reduces the muck on the track.

I hope that helps.
Harry
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Harryv40
Offline applor  
#23 Posted : 29 July 2020 01:25:07(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,541
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Yes I find the rails being stainless steel never corrode or anything and only need rare cleaning due to tire marks/deposits which I use isopropyl to clean.

The studs are always the problem for bad running, however since controlling humidity to ~45% I hardly ever need to clean those either. If they need it I use the Roco track cleaner 'rubber'.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by applor
Offline kimballthurlow  
#24 Posted : 29 July 2020 09:50:00(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 5,891
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
.....


UserPostedImage


(noting your Kerosene is "best") .......


But, as Adrian just said, the other side of the equation is to also clean the wheels, otherwise they just lay any gunk back down.

Regards,

PJ


And note too that Graphite has an "unsure" rating as good as kerosene.
I have been using a carpenters pencil (because the graphite is thicker) on my centre studs and it seems to be solving any problems I have.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by kimballthurlow
Offline danmarklinman  
#25 Posted : 29 July 2020 10:53:02(UTC)
danmarklinman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 18/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,165
Just run your trains as regularly as possible. Once a day will stop the need for any reel track cleaning👍
Marklin and Piko era 4 SNCB , Marklin wagons
Wiking model car Fan
Faller fan including car system
Instagram: marklin1978
Wiking fan
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by danmarklinman
Offline Danlake  
#26 Posted : 31 August 2020 11:18:52(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,522
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Previously been using some low odour kerosene product and it did keep tracks clean for much longer (less black gunk on the railhead) than my old method of isopropyl, however it still smell terrible when applying and my train room would have a slight kerosene smell for a couple of days afterwards.

So been researching alternative solutions that is available down under and stumbled across a Australian modeller who had high praise for the Australian product called Inox (a bit similar to WD-40).

Upon further reading I find lots of references to the product in the slot car community. See e.g. these video (looks pretty amazing).

https://m.youtube.com/wa...b_logo&v=NnnSjyXyhrU

https://m.youtube.com/wa...154&feature=emb_logo

Anyway I am going to try this product. Anyone had experience with it?

Again, this is the idea about applying a film on the rail head that prevents arching. Inox itself is non-conductive.

Best Regards
Lasse


So just an update to below post and a bit of WARNING:

I purchased a small 300ml non pressurised bottle and decided to clean a part of my layout with this product.

It has a quite pleasant, sweet smell with a consistency of a light olive oil. I gave a cotton rag a slight mist from a distance and then rubbed a track section making sure not to overly oil the rail.

After cleaning a part of the layout I waited a couple of days to test the effect. I had a heavy DSB MY loco doing the pull with a couple of passenger wagons. Initially all looked good but after a couple of rounds it started struggling on the inclines (approx 3%). Got worse and worse so I stopped the experiment.

I then took a brand new white cotton rag and wiped the rail on the incline, thinking I must have over oiled this section. To my horror one swipe with rag on top of the rail produced a thick black paint substance... Iam not talking about the usual grey, darkish gunk but this looked like bright black paint... and not only on the incline. The whole section I had just spent a couple of hours to clean with Inox was completely covered in a black substances. I can only think of 2 reasons:

1. The Inox had started dissolving the rubber tires and/or
2. It had worked it’s way around all the wheels and cleaned those.

Regardless I would not recommend using this product as it very likely will give you issues with traction and may even potential damage the rubber tires.

I am now using a 50/50 mixture of isopropyl alcohol with CRC plastic safe contact cleaner.

Best Regards
Lasse


Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Danlake
Offline hxmiesa  
#27 Posted : 31 August 2020 12:00:17(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
After cleaning a part of the layout I waited a couple of days to test the effect. I had a heavy DSB MY loco doing the pull with a couple of passenger wagons. Initially all looked good but after a couple of rounds it started struggling on the inclines (approx 3%). Got worse and worse so I stopped the experiment.

I then took a brand new white cotton rag and wiped the rail on the incline, thinking I must have over oiled this section. To my horror one swipe with rag on top of the rail produced a thick black paint substance... Iam not talking about the usual grey, darkish gunk but this looked like bright black paint... and not only on the incline. The whole section I had just spent a couple of hours to clean with Inox was completely covered in a black substances. I can only think of 2 reasons:

1. The Inox had started dissolving the rubber tires and/or
2. It had worked it’s way around all the wheels and cleaned those.

For those 2 reasons to happen, your loko would either have its traction tyres severely damaged by now, and/or the wheels of your rolling stock was already very dirty?!
Is either the case?

Maybe you need to repeat the test with more controlled conditions; New clean tracks and new clean rolling stock. THEN see if a black film is formed on the track.

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by hxmiesa
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#28 Posted : 31 August 2020 17:39:39(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Lately, I never clean my tracks. They dont seem to get dirty at all. -Even if the layout hasnt been used for months.



Serious!??
Your track oxid while you drive with the digital power which means constant power on the track.
This make dirt faster on the track instead of the analog power.

Offline hxmiesa  
#29 Posted : 31 August 2020 23:28:50(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Serious!??
Your track oxid while you drive with the digital power which means constant power on the track.
This make dirt faster on the track instead of the analog power.

I'm not sure if I even understand what you are saying, but I can say that I have practically 0 (zero) oxidation in my dry (<60%) RR room.

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#30 Posted : 01 September 2020 06:56:32(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post

I'm not sure if I even understand what you are saying, but I can say that I have practically 0 (zero) oxidation in my dry (<60%) RR room.



That is impossible!
I have seen Märklin layout oxid a lot on the tracks.
Even two rail oxid.

Offline Gregor  
#31 Posted : 01 September 2020 09:09:24(UTC)
Gregor

Netherlands   
Joined: 17/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 948
Location: Netherlands
Hi,

Since I have read this post, I have been using regular WD-40. The issue now is that the driving wheels slip, even on level sections... Crying

Is there any post treatment that would cure this?

Gregor
Offline Danlake  
#32 Posted : 01 September 2020 11:48:41(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,522
Hi Gregor,

Just use some isopropyl alcohol or similar to get rid of any oil residues.

Best Regards
Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Danlake
Offline Danlake  
#33 Posted : 01 September 2020 11:53:13(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,522
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
After cleaning a part of the layout I waited a couple of days to test the effect. I had a heavy DSB MY loco doing the pull with a couple of passenger wagons. Initially all looked good but after a couple of rounds it started struggling on the inclines (approx 3%). Got worse and worse so I stopped the experiment.

I then took a brand new white cotton rag and wiped the rail on the incline, thinking I must have over oiled this section. To my horror one swipe with rag on top of the rail produced a thick black paint substance... Iam not talking about the usual grey, darkish gunk but this looked like bright black paint... and not only on the incline. The whole section I had just spent a couple of hours to clean with Inox was completely covered in a black substances. I can only think of 2 reasons:

1. The Inox had started dissolving the rubber tires and/or
2. It had worked it’s way around all the wheels and cleaned those.

For those 2 reasons to happen, your loko would either have its traction tyres severely damaged by now, and/or the wheels of your rolling stock was already very dirty?!
Is either the case?

Maybe you need to repeat the test with more controlled conditions; New clean tracks and new clean rolling stock. THEN see if a black film is formed on the track.



Nope the wheels were not unusually dirty. I did notice the rubber tires seemed to have gotten thinner on the loco I test drove with, but as you say it will require some proper experiment to find the causes. In the meantime you will just have to take my word for it to be carefull if using Inox and try on a small piece of track first BigGrin

Update: I guess I should have read the print from Inox website:

Caution: INOX MX3 may effect some rubber products with continual long term use.

Best Regards
Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
thanks 7 users liked this useful post by Danlake
Offline phils2um  
#34 Posted : 02 September 2020 07:52:59(UTC)
phils2um

United States   
Joined: 12/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 35
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Hi Gregor,

Just use some isopropyl alcohol or similar to get rid of any oil residues.

Best Regards
Lasse


Doesn't this just defeat the whole purpose of using a non-polar track cleaner?

Phil S.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by phils2um
Offline Danlake  
#35 Posted : 02 September 2020 08:29:52(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,522
Yes, but most model railroaders have this one hand and it basically just brings the track back to square one and solves the immediate issues of wheel slippage.

Afterwards he can then apply a non-polar solvent. I don’t think anyone claims that polar solvents damaged the rail it’s merely a discussion about what product will keep you running longest in between cleaning the tracksBigGrin

Best Regards
Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline Copenhagen  
#36 Posted : 02 September 2020 09:37:06(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 77
Originally Posted by: phils2um Go to Quoted Post

Doesn't this just defeat the whole purpose of using a non-polar track cleaner?

Phil S.


That table and the whole concept/idea behind it is worthless. And it can even be detrimental to our hobby.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#37 Posted : 02 September 2020 12:55:58(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,458
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
That table and the whole concept/idea behind it is worthless. And it can even be detrimental to our hobby.


Your proof of that is....??

No point making a statement with nothing to back it up, especially in a thread called 'Science of track cleaning'!

Please do not make glib statements, without adding evidence to back it up. If you have evidence to the contrary, great, if not.......

I'm assuming you actually read the MRH article and the link in the article... I would almost think you were deliberately trying to be contentious.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline David Dewar  
#38 Posted : 02 September 2020 12:56:36(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
You have been a member since:: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,978
Location: Scotland
I just use a Roco track rubber and run trains on a regular basis. Done it for more years than I can remember and never have any problem. Also clean the wheels of locos and coaches again on a regular basis. Never used any types of liquid cleaners. I also inspect and clean if required turnout motors.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#39 Posted : 02 September 2020 13:19:03(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,458
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
I just use a Roco track rubber....


Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: guitartoys Go to Quoted Post
...came across these, which are abrasive style erasers, for cleaning guitar frets, which have a specific grit to them.


Bad idea!

I've posted this before, but here's why you shouldn't use track rubbers or isopropyl alcohol



Something I posted in another thread which you might not have seen! - Although he does promote the use of Inox, which Lasse notes above may cause deterioration of rubber tyres, not so good for Marklin locos. I did buy a can of Inox aerosol a while ago, so maybe might try soaking a rubber tyre in it for a while. It does have the warning on the Inox can that Lasse refers to.
Offline Copenhagen  
#40 Posted : 02 September 2020 14:37:51(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 77
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
That table and the whole concept/idea behind it is worthless. And it can even be detrimental to our hobby.


Your proof of that is....??

No point making a statement with nothing to back it up, especially in a thread called 'Science of track cleaning'!

Please do not make glib statements, without adding evidence to back it up. If you have evidence to the contrary, great, if not.......

I'm assuming you actually read the MRH article and the link in the article... I would almost think you were deliberately trying to be contentious.


Because the article is not scientific. It does contain scientific concepts but there is no in-depth scientific testing, it is just some claims based on assumptions. Like 'graphite is good but too much is bad'... what amount is good. Two micrograms? Or four? What is too much? Hundred grams is probably too much because it'll cause shorts. But how do you measure the correct amount. And then the ting about solvents... solvents evaporate leaving nothing or almost nothing on the metal surface, there is no testing of what (if anything) is left on the surface and if there is anything left it is not tested how it works... it's all assumptions. And water!? It evaporates completely or is dried off by the cloth you're using... and WD-40? WD-40 is a mixture of many things, propellants, solvents and oils. So what is left on the track when you rub it over with a piece of cloth drenched in WD-40? If you rub hard enough only an ultra-thin film of oil or something is left and how is that tested and compared to other things on the list?
Offline DaleSchultz  
#41 Posted : 02 September 2020 16:05:57(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,474
scientifically speaking, model trains do not exist. Nobody has ever published a peer reviewed paper to determine that they exist.
I need some funding to get that sorted out.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 10 users liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#42 Posted : 02 September 2020 17:41:38(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
I use electronic clean spray PRF 6-68 to clean my tracks and it really works!
By the way...WD-40 are cutting fluid to drill stainless steel with or to thread holes.
Offline Copenhagen  
#43 Posted : 02 September 2020 20:17:24(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 77
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
By the way...WD-40 are cutting fluid to drill stainless steel with or to thread holes.


It's not a cutting fluid. But in a small workshop/garage almost anything can (and will) be used.
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#44 Posted : 02 September 2020 20:44:56(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
By the way...WD-40 are cutting fluid to drill stainless steel with or to thread holes.


It's not a cutting fluid. But in a small workshop/garage almost anything can (and will) be used.


It is cutting fluid!
We use it when i bore drill on the hard steel.
Offline Purellum  
#45 Posted : 02 September 2020 22:33:44(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,247
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
It is cutting fluid!


Ehmmm, NO! Laugh

Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
We use it when i bore drill on the hard steel.


I belive that part; but that doesn't make WD40 a cutting oil......... Laugh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40

Actually, using it as cutting oil is quite dangerous, since it's higly flameable; the flash point is 59° C; lower than most dieselLaugh

https://www.datocms-asse...40-smart-straw-12-oz.pdf

Per.

Cool





If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Purellum
Offline scraigen  
#46 Posted : 02 September 2020 22:52:27(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 240
Location: Sheffield,
Please stick to the topic, no point in arguing with Goofy about what WD40 is or isn’t. Is WD40 any good at track cleaning? I suspect the regular WD40 would be too oily but the switch cleaner version is most likely excellent at cleaning track.
Must build something
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by scraigen
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#47 Posted : 03 September 2020 12:39:58(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,458
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
......but there is no in-depth scientific testing, it is just some claims based on assumptions.


The report quotes someone who had the gunk off some rails submitted for analysis by a lab. The report also reports discussions with a Chemist who also understands electrical contact cleaning, who you would think knows what he's talking about. Maybe it isn't a full in depth lab testing of all products, but the comments seem to have some scientific basis, and are probably also based on quite a bit of experience.

If you are going to demand scientific testing for everything then you have just invalidated about 99% of all comments / threads on this forum which are largely based on experience mixed with some opinions.
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline Copenhagen  
#48 Posted : 03 September 2020 15:56:48(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 77
Most of the threads here are (thankfully) about practical matters that doesn't involve scientific testing or scientific debate and some threads are about opinions and personal taste.
Offline applor  
#49 Posted : 03 September 2020 23:53:12(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,541
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
As I've stated and Henrik has supported, the most important thing for a clean (functioning) track is low humidity.
I've tried graphite on the studs and Kerosene on the rails, neither really improved the situation. Installed a de-humidifier set to 45% and problem solved.
I spot clean a few pukos maybe once every month or two and sometimes I see rubber tyre marks on the rails which I clean off with isopropyl.

So in short, the best way to clean the track is to not have to clean it at all!
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by applor
Offline hxmiesa  
#50 Posted : 04 September 2020 09:49:01(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,065
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
As I've stated and Henrik has supported, the most important thing for a clean (functioning) track is low humidity.
I've tried graphite on the studs and Kerosene on the rails, neither really improved the situation. Installed a de-humidifier set to 45% and problem solved.
I spot clean a few pukos maybe once every month or two and sometimes I see rubber tyre marks on the rails which I clean off with isopropyl.
So in short, the best way to clean the track is to not have to clean it at all!

ThumpUp
-But I have a question for you; How can you live with only 45% of humidity??
I tried, and below 55% I get more and more static electricity, which is somewhat uncomfortable to live with. (-and very dangerous to fine electronics, like decoders)

My floor is an IKEA lamina "wooden" floor, with all its plastic isolation on top of the concrete cellar floor.
Maybe I should ground my layout, bypassing the IKEA floor and its isolations¿?

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
2 Pages12>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2020, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 2.509 seconds.