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Offline river6109  
#1 Posted : 21 March 2019 02:05:07(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,622
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
one wonders sometimes how these manufacturers like Märklin, ESU and ZIMO release or design new decoders more or less at the same time and how these electronic improvements suddenly are realized by these manufacturers., for instance with ZIMO mfx compatible.

"Introducing the MS generation, ZIMO decoders do not only work with DCC and MM, like all ZIMO de-coders, but also with the mfx track format, including RDS feedback and automatic registration with mfx central stations.MS decoders are real multiprotocol (3-fold) decoders,which also work with analog operation, DC and AC."

it looks to me they all woke up one morning with the same idea or is it some genius behind the scenes from China or Korea and told them we've got good news for you: we've developed a few new electronic components

www.zimo.at/web2010/news...letter_2019_Maerz_EN.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline franciscohg  
#2 Posted : 21 March 2019 02:34:35(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,179
Location: Patagonia
Well, those zimo mfx i think are being developed at least since 2017, when they were announced fitted on the roco BR 85, even when the loco itself was delivered with a standard DCC deco initially, i received my mfx version about a year ago.
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline Goofy  
#3 Posted : 21 March 2019 06:57:22(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,072
It´s a good idea for Märklinist to shop other manufacture locomotives that support mfx protocol and when somebody use Märklin system more than DCC protocol.
Zimo do really nice decoders and with the sounds too. ThumpUp
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline David Dewar  
#4 Posted : 21 March 2019 13:13:33(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,762
Location: Scotland
Manufacturers need to keep up to date and if Marklin come out with some new (mfx xxx plus plus) then all will need to follow. I am presuming that Marklin sell more three rail locos than others. Don't know who makes Brawa decoders but the one I have is fine although does not register on the CS3 and comes with address 3.
With model rail declining as a hobby I expect there will be less of a choice in the future.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline franciscohg  
#5 Posted : 21 March 2019 14:30:15(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,179
Location: Patagonia
Hi, Brawa used to use ESU decoders, but now use Doehler & Haas, as for mfx support, the lack of it was more about patent problems and lack of will of Märklin itself to give proper authorizations. Now they are just boarding a train in the last minute, better late than ever. I would really love to see M locos equipped with Zimo or D&H decos ab werk, but I don't think that will happen .
Regards.
BTW, just ordered my first mSD3 for a conversion, let's see if it change my mind
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline river6109  
#6 Posted : 22 March 2019 06:11:03(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,622
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
to give an accurate report on all different decoders one would have to buy all of them which is a very expensive exercise., you would need at least 5 or 6 central command stations, different loco programmers, a diploma in understanding CV's and changing them and as modeller with 2 people onboard its a task I would have to take it with me into my grave, especially with around 200 locos. Unless you've got all the different systems no one can or could give you an accurate list of the cons and pros.
one thing although did concern me in the past why ESU had lost the supply of decoders to Märklin, Roco and Brawa, with Märklin being more obvious., Zimo was always classified as the Rolls Royce brand with decoders and their digital system but for me, as I said reading and writing CV's wasn't an option, they have now introduced a loco programmer but you still need their system to operate it as far as I understand it.
I think manufacturers have a long way to go to improve the electronic boards in locos and in most of them its just an essential design, whereas HAg has had some innovations by placing it in the ceiling of their housing., it also should be noted having components integrated which each other it will be harder to replace them or it will be more expensive to buy them.
like with cars we used to replace the bumper on a car but now you have to replace the whole front.

I personally think the digital systems are still in its raw state although we've been experiencing them since the 1980's, I would like to see decoders responding to a simplified bar code system whereas sound slots can be activated via your track sensors and with the design I've created these sensors could be installed in more or less every 2 sleepers on your K-track but suppose you could do it with a computer program., e.g train arrival announcement, train departure announcement, whistle or horn before entering a tunnel and the odd train control warning systems, I thought you only would hear this in an internal closed cab and not being heard externally all over your layout.

Personally I think we are being swept into a make belief the new generation sound decoders, so far sound improvements are concerned, yes I believe there is an improvement but when it comes to motor control, I'm not an electronic expert but I can't or couldn't see any reason why this couldn't have been added into the old V 4.0 decoders of ESU. and for this matter the same would apply to ZIMO. so in the end it dosen't matter, out with the old and in with the new, at least the prices haven't been increased.
When it comes to loudspeakers , Roco has a clever but simple solution they've arranged contact points within the circuit board on its underside and also have a speaker chamber build into their frame, all you have to do is place the speaker within the chamber and replace the circuit board on top of it: no wires needed., no extension chamber parts needed, e.g ESU new generation speakers. , so some manufacturers use a bit of innovation but the main concern I have is the weight loss and it is noticeable, its not the under belly or around the waste, every time I buy a loco from Roco for instance, I notice there is a weight loss inside the loco, I assume they went through a diet progress and someone in their design department came up with the idea to trim some fat off.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
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5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Goofy  
#7 Posted : 23 March 2019 09:56:45(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,072
Märklin has decides to open the mfx protocol as standard in the model railway industry.
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline dickinsonj  
#8 Posted : 01 April 2019 01:28:01(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,186
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post

BTW, just ordered my first mSD3 for a conversion, let's see if it change my mind


Hi Fransisco,

I just finished my second mSD/3 upgrade and I am very impressed. Not only do my locos run much better than they did with the older decoders but I have access to a lot of sounds from Märklin's sound library and up to 32 functions. I also found the starter projects which you can download from Märklin useful and they are available for many locos. My one ESU loco has fade in/fade out lighting which I think is cool. But now I know that you can select that on lighting outputs with the mSD/3 and even specify the time it takes to fade. You can set up sequences of actions that can get pretty complex, like the coupler waltz. You can adjust the volume levels of each sound, just as you can with a modern ESU decoder. No doubt there is a lot more but with Märklin's normally thin documentation I am still working out the details.

I think that you will be pleased with your new decoder.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline river6109  
#9 Posted : 01 April 2019 03:06:00(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,622
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post

BTW, just ordered my first mSD3 for a conversion, let's see if it change my mind


Hi Fransisco,

I just finished my second mSD/3 upgrade and I am very impressed. Not only do my locos run much better than they did with the older decoders but I have access to a lot of sounds from Märklin's sound library and up to 32 functions. I also found the starter projects which you can download from Märklin useful and they are available for many locos. My one ESU loco has fade in/fade out lighting which I think is cool. But now I know that you can select that on lighting outputs with the mSD/3 and even specify the time it takes to fade. You can set up sequences of actions that can get pretty complex, like the coupler waltz. You can adjust the volume levels of each sound, just as you can with a modern ESU decoder. No doubt there is a lot more but with Märklin's normally thin documentation I am still working out the details.

I think that you will be pleased with your new decoder.


How many years does a Märklin's sound decoder have when it comes to no question asked replacements for faulty sound decoders/decoders ?

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline dickinsonj  
#10 Posted : 01 April 2019 03:33:37(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,186
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post

How many years does a Märklin's sound decoder have when it comes to no question asked replacements for faulty sound decoders/decoders ?

John


I believe that they have the same warranty as most Märklin products, which is two years from date of sale. The only Märklin sound decoder that I have ever had fail was almost 20 years old, so that is not a big worry for me. I don't remember what the warranty is on the ESU decoders that I have bought.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline franciscohg  
#11 Posted : 03 April 2019 17:01:44(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,179
Location: Patagonia
well, i have finished the conversion of a BR 216 with an mSD3, sounds are better but i must say that i am not happy with motor control of a LCFM with a hamo magnet, driving is improved with some CV tampering but inferior to mSD or ESU decos out of the box. Will add a 5 pole kit later and see, but so far, it is a no go.
Light effects are available on previous versions and other brands, also, 32 functions for me it is not something i take in account when choosing a deco. For now i think i will stay with ESU and evaluate migrating to ZIMO later.
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Online DaleSchultz  
#12 Posted : 03 April 2019 17:43:13(UTC)
DaleSchultz


Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,124
I suspect this is all to do with legal stuff rather than technology.
i.e. once Märklin allowed mFx to be licensed, it is easy to add the implementation of it.

The bigger question is why would anyone actually want or bother with mFx in the first place. From the multitude of posts I see about locos not being found it sounds to me that the primary advantage it was supposed to provide is flaky at best.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline franciscohg  
#13 Posted : 03 April 2019 17:57:20(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,179
Location: Patagonia
I must say that my mfx locos have registered with no problems so far. So having a CS2, mfx is very useful to me. Have used mainly ESU decoders in the past, I have one Zimo with it and also works fine.
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline dickinsonj  
#14 Posted : 03 April 2019 18:55:37(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,186
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post

The bigger question is why would anyone actually want or bother with mFx in the first place. From the multitude of posts I see about locos not being found it sounds to me that the primary advantage it was supposed to provide is flaky at best.


Almost all of my decoders are now mfx or mfx compatible ESU decoders. I have only had one registration problem which actually was my fault. I tried to register a new loco on my main track with other decoders present and it only partially registered. But after I removed it from my roster and placed it on my programming track it registered properly.

I put a new loco on my programming track and 15-20 seconds later it registers with my CS2 and I am done. No more keeping track of addresses and manually entering functions and I love it. Mine have been a perfect plug and play solution - and I have not found it to be flaky at all.

I have noticed that a lot of the complaints about mfx seem to come from people controlling their trains with other company's command systems, but that should improve now that Märklin has opened up the protocol.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline dickinsonj  
#15 Posted : 03 April 2019 21:11:01(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,186
Location: United States
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
driving is improved with some CV tampering but inferior to mSD or ESU decos out of the box. Will add a 5 pole kit later and see, but so far, it is a no go.


My mSD/3 decoders have all been installed in locos with 5 pole DCMs and they run as well as my newer factory DCM locos do, such as my VT 11.5.

I wonder if your results are because you have not yet upgraded to 5 pole armatures or because they are LFCM units. Have you checked that the motor type is set correctly for the motor in your loco and have you tried doing the automatic calibration run?
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
Offline franciscohg  
#16 Posted : 03 April 2019 21:55:55(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,179
Location: Patagonia
Hi. yes. Most of my conversion operate with the corresponding 5 pole kit for DCM, SFCM or LCFM motors. Some, like this one have HAMO magnets with the original rotor, they always behave worse than a 5 pole kit and ussually are just for a quick transition waiting for the HLA kit. But in this case running out the box is just crappy, something that do not occured previously with ESU and mSD decoders. As i said i will give them a try with a 5 pole motor soon ( as they are available for a good price from a dealer here in Chile ) and then make a definitive decision on them. But if the MXULFA from Zimo were not that expensive the decision would have made already.
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline Goofy  
#17 Posted : 04 April 2019 08:17:07(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,072
Roco do have Zimo sound decoder and use with the Leo sound lab.
The result says more than thousands of the words.
I believe Zimo new MS sound decoder will soon present by Roco in the new models.
Roco provided their own 5 pole motor and flywheels with excellent running results.
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline franciscohg  
#18 Posted : 04 April 2019 11:48:54(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,179
Location: Patagonia
Roco already presented a loco with MS decoder, i do have it and it works great.
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline Goofy  
#19 Posted : 05 April 2019 06:11:56(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,072
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Roco already presented a loco with MS decoder, i do have it and it works great.


What model is it?
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline franciscohg  
#20 Posted : 05 April 2019 12:36:06(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,179
Location: Patagonia
Roco 78271. BR85 with dynamic smoke Nice loco
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline Goofy  
#21 Posted : 10 April 2019 07:03:05(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,072
Do anyone knows if Roco do have several train models do have Zimo MS decoder?
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline Goofy  
#22 Posted : 04 May 2019 10:34:50(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,072
Zimo MS sound decoder are multi and it means Roco will present digital locomotive with mfx protocol in both two and three rail.
Märklin do already present Trix digital locomotive with the mfx protocol too.
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline Goofy  
#23 Posted : 04 June 2019 09:25:15(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,072
I did wrote a mail to Roco and asked about Zimo MS sound decoder.
Roco did verified that there was no intresting to add mfx protocol and start use MS decoder in the digital locomotives.

Blink Huh
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline franciscohg  
#24 Posted : 04 June 2019 19:46:12(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,179
Location: Patagonia
As I understand from Zimo page, MS decoders are not just MX ones with Mfx but the latest development of their decoders, wich also includes mfx protocol. They state that MX will not be discontinued in short term but may be in the future.
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline Goofy  
#25 Posted : 01 November 2019 08:14:17(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,072
Zimo has upgraded sound decoder.
I wonder if Märklin are interesting by start cooperation with Zimo by test a Zimo MS sound decoder?
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline kiwiAlan  
#26 Posted : 01 November 2019 18:13:41(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,603
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Zimo has upgraded sound decoder.
I wonder if Märklin are interesting by start cooperation with Zimo by test a Zimo MS sound decoder?


Why would they? After all, Marklin make their own decoders, and as you know, Marklin is the best, you keep coming back to it after trying other brands.

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Offline Goofy  
#27 Posted : 05 November 2019 13:57:33(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,072
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Zimo has upgraded sound decoder.
I wonder if Märklin are interesting by start cooperation with Zimo by test a Zimo MS sound decoder?


Why would they? After all, Marklin make their own decoders, and as you know, Marklin is the best, you keep coming back to it after trying other brands.



No Märklins mfx decoder are not best.
It´s different between mfx VS Zimo, D&H or ESU Loksound 5.
It would be pleasant for Märklinist to have better sound decoder in the Märklin locomotive.
I have seen Zimo decoder in the Märklin locomotive and it works great.
But with the DCC protocol.

DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline jvuye  
#28 Posted : 06 November 2019 10:59:15(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,694
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Zimo has upgraded sound decoder.
I wonder if Märklin are interesting by start cooperation with Zimo by test a Zimo MS sound decoder?


Why would they? After all, Marklin make their own decoders, and as you know, Marklin is the best, you keep coming back to it after trying other brands.



No Märklins mfx decoder are not best.
It´s different between mfx VS Zimo, D&H or ESU Loksound 5.
It would be pleasant for Märklinist to have better sound decoder in the Märklin locomotive.
I have seen Zimo decoder in the Märklin locomotive and it works great.
But with the DCC protocol.



At least this time (Please note!!) I have to agree with Goofy!
When it come to *sounds*, a number of Zimo equipped ROCO locomotives are **far** better than most Märklin locos.
For example I recently purchased a SNCB Class 25 steamer (similar to DB BR 50) and it is just perfect!
Same applies for two SNCF locos: a CC 6500 electric and a CC 72000 diesel

No it's not Mfx compatible at this point, but who cares?
DCC with Railcom is at least as easy to use!

And running performance is at least at par !

Cheers




Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline Goofy  
#29 Posted : 09 November 2019 07:39:26(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,072
Zimo new MS decoder is more advanced sound decoder than Märklins mfx.
Even Märklin locomotive drives better with Zimo instead of Märklins mfx.
The only cons with Zimo decoder like to upgrade theirs decoder you need Zimo lokprogrammer or system.
Or Rocos system Z21.
DCC means Digital Command Control.

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