 Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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I really like the models from 1956 with the wide precoupler (breite Vorentkupplung). They have always caught my eye and are interesting to me. But I never understood why Märklin only produced them for one year (1956). Why was it only produced for one year? It seems to operate just fine, was it a bad design? Edited by user 08 February 2019 01:00:18(UTC)
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 2 users liked this useful post by White Buffalo
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 Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,802 Location: Wurttemberg
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Hi,
No, I don't know it. I can just speculate that it was an patent issue. The 1956 design with the bent cover works even better than the later version. I can't imagine another reason. The newer version is not cheaper to produce or has any other advantages.
Regards
Markus
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3 users liked this useful post by Markus Schild
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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Vielen Dank Markus. I really like the style & function of these couplers. Going to have to keep my eye open for Wagens with this type coupler. I have only seen them on Locomotives and freight Wagens. Have you seen them on Passenger WAgens?
besten,
Rich
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Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,802 Location: Wurttemberg
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Hi Rich,
The couplers only appeared at the "better" freight wagons (310+) which where numbered 46XX from 1957 and on some locomotives. Not on passenger cars.
Regards
Markus
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1 user liked this useful post by Markus Schild
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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ausgezeichnet Markus! Thank you for the information and helping my understand which models this coupler was used on. 
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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Mostly for my reference, maybe someone else's as well, I am going to list the models I have found with the wide pre coupler. If there is something I should add to the list ß please do or let me know.
Type 6 Wide Precoupler
Typ 6 breite Vorentkupplung
313/1 (4606) Niederbordwagen - low sided freight car
313/3 (4609) Planewagen - Tarped car with Märklin logo
310/1 (4600) baggage car - Gepäckwagen
311/1 (4601) open goods car - Offener Güterwagen mit Bremserhaus
312/1 (4605) Swiss freight car - Gedeckter Güterwagen mit Bremserhaus
315/1 (4610) ballast car - Schotterwagen
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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Type 6 Wide Precoupler
Typ 6 breite Vorentkupplung
Freight cars - Güterwagen
313/1 (4606) Niederbordwagen - low sided freight car
313/3 (4609) Planewagen - Tarped car with Märklin logo
310/1 (4600) baggage car - Gepäckwagen
311/1 (4601) open goods car - Offener Güterwagen mit Bremserhaus
312/1 (4605) Swiss freight car - Gedeckter Güterwagen mit Bremserhaus
315/1 (4610) ballast car - Schotterwagen
Locomotives - Lokomotiven
FM 800
SET 800
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Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,802 Location: Wurttemberg
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Hi,
The list misses at least:
DA800
GN800
TM800
Car transporter 315/4 and 315/4G
Regards
Markus
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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vielen dank Markus, thank you very much for the help. Maybe someday I can find all these items. Type 6 Wide Precoupler Typ 6 breite Vorentkupplung Freight cars - Güterwagen310/1 (4600) baggage car - Gepäckwagen 311/1 (4601) open goods car - Offener Güterwagen mit Bremserhaus 312/1 (4605) Swiss freight car - Gedeckter Güterwagen mit Bremserhaus 313/1 (4606) Niederbordwagen - low sided freight car 313/3 (4609) Planewagen - Tarped car with Märklin logo 315/1 (4610) ballast car - Schotterwagen Locomotives - LokomotivenDA 800 FM 800 GN 800 TM 800 SET 800
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 Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington
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Originally Posted by: White Buffalo  vielen dank Markus, thank you very much for the help. Maybe someday I can find all these items. Type 6 Wide Precoupler Typ 6 breite Vorentkupplung Freight cars - Güterwagen310/1 (4600) baggage car - Gepäckwagen 311/1 (4601) open goods car - Offener Güterwagen mit Bremserhaus 312/1 (4605) Swiss freight car - Gedeckter Güterwagen mit Bremserhaus 313/1 (4606) Niederbordwagen - low sided freight car 313/3 (4609) Planewagen - Tarped car with Märklin logo 315/1 (4610) ballast car - Schotterwagen Locomotives - LokomotivenDA 800 FM 800 GN 800 TM 800 SET 800 There will be those here that are wondering what the referred wide coupler looks like - how about fleshing this thread out with some comparison photos of same models listed above with each coupler for reference. Apart from Koll's it's not that well documented and not everyone has Koll's handy - I'll have to dig mine out and someone will surely beat me to it, but if not I'll see what I can find to add As an aside, I keep an eye out for them also, being my birth year it's only fitting !! Cookee |
Cookee Wellington  |
4 users liked this useful post by cookee_nz
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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That is a good idea Cookee. Photos say it better than words sometimes. I'll put some together since we will be home today and tomorrow. Now I need to go on the roof and ensure the heater exhaust pipes are not frozen over. We are having -25F to -30F temps (-31 to -35 Celcius) tonight and I sure do not want any surprises during the night. 
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Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,201 Location: Kerikeri
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Brrrr thats cold. Too cold for me.
I have an F800 with the coupler on the tender the same as you have described. It is wide and has a bend down on it.
Dereck |
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä |
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Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,802 Location: Wurttemberg
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Hi, Two pictures which were ready on my disk:   Regards Markus
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2 users liked this useful post by Markus Schild
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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thank you Markus, the photos are extremely helpful to understanding this thread. I should have started with some initially. Here are the first two pages from my 2001 Koll's katalog showing the different types of couplers (Kupplung). The type I am refering to is typ 6. In the photo below it is shown in the top right corner surrounded bz a zellow box and labeled Breite (wide) Vorentkupplung Typ 6 brüniert 1956. 
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1 user liked this useful post by White Buffalo
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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here is a close up pick of this style coupler. Märklin had only made this coupler for one year according to the information I see in Koll's Katalog. In my opinion it is one of the best couplers. It has been my favorite lately. 
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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Originally Posted by: dominator Brrrr thats cold. Too cold for me.
I have an F800 with the coupler on the tender the same as you have described. It is wide and has a bend down on it.
Dereck Dereck, Do you happen to have a photo? RIch
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Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,201 Location: Kerikeri
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No but My coupling is exactly like you see in the above photos.
Dereck |
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä |
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Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington
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I have a crane 315/2 ~ 4611 with that coupling I just realised. Sadly it's in a very sorry state. Looking closely at the 1956 new-numbering catalogue it seems almost all the 46xx wagons had this coupling. It's same in the normal colour one, I just don't have a clear scan at hand.  |
Cookee Wellington |
1 user liked this useful post by cookee_nz
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Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,802 Location: Wurttemberg
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Hi, It is interesting that the three new 46XX-series wagons (4602, 4614 and 4616) for 1957 are shown with the wide coupler in the new-items catalogue but without that coupler in the 1957-D-catalogue. I have never seen examples with wide couplers of these wagons in reality. As an example 4614:  Regards Markus
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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updated list
Typ 6 breite Vorentkupplung
Type 6 Wide Precoupler
Freight cars - Güterwagen
310/1 (4600) baggage car - Gepäckwagen
311/1 (4601) open goods car - Offener Güterwagen mit Bremserhaus
312/1 (4605) Swiss freight car - Gedeckter Güterwagen mit Bremserhaus
313/1 (4606) low sided freight car - Niederbordwagen
313/2 (4608) log carrier - Stammholzwagen
313/3 (4609) Planewagen - Tarped car with Märklin logo
315/1 (4610) ballast car - Schotterwagen
315/2 (4611) Crane car - Kranwagen
315/4 G (4613) Auto transport car - Autotransportwagen
Locomotives - Lokomotiven
DA 800 Dampflok BR 23 mit Tender - 2-6-2 Class 23 Steam engine with tender
FM 800 Dampflok BR 24 mit Tender - 2-6-0 Class 24 Steam engine with tender
GN 800 Baureihe 44 Dampflok - 2-10-0 Heavy goods steam locomotive
TM 800 Tenderlok - 0-6-0 Tender Locomotive
SET 800 (3011) E-Lok Baureihe E 44 - Electric Locomotive 0-4-4-0
also possibly found on:
4602 Open Goods Car - Offener Güterwagen
4614 Container Car - Behältertragwagen
4616 Low Sided Car with black pipe load - Niederbordwagen mit schwarzem Rohr
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 Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC) Posts: 2,883 Location: South Western France
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A bit intrigued by this discussion I took a good look at these couplers yesterday, trying to figure out the "why" Märklin changed from the wide to the narrow version. I believe the change occured for cost purposes and maybe also for robustness. First of all, the narrow version requires less material. Of course you'll say that the difference is marginal , and I agree! But small savings on a very large number of parts become large savings : the couplers were probably the largest quantity line item component manufactured at Märklin! (And probably still are!) (Trust the industrious Schwaben to save a Gröschen wherever it can be found!  ) Not having seen the dies that cut and bend the little metal plate, I can't really say "how much" material was saved , but I'm sure it's substantial . Having observed Märklin stamping and bending process I would say that the narrow version spares about 50% material. Which also makes the part smaller in **volume** and surface . That in turn has an impact on the subsequent operation: the chemical treatment that preps and finishes the part to its "blackened" (bruniert) look. For that operation hundreds or even thousands of parts are put in a tray which goes then in the various chemical baths to be processed. So if , for example you double the number of parts in a batch, you reduce by half the individual cost of the operation All you have to do to understand my suspicion about "robustness", you will see that the coupling loop is attached to the stem by more material in the narrow version, as the cut to take on the narrow "vorentkuppler" is simply smaller. I think I have (maybe) anecdotal evidence to support this claim: in my days of running a Märklin Service station I replaced hundreds of coupler on "well played" vehicles...and a majority of those had been broken *exactly* at that level. Again, this is maybe all just an "educated speculation"... Cheers Jacques |
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success! |
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Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington
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I took a close look at my 315/2 Crane Wagon and am intrigued by the wave shape of the coupler? It's perfectly formed exactly the same on both ends so I believe this is how they are made (rather than bent later), but why shaped like this?. Are others like this?, it's not really noticeable unless you are looking side-on. Cheers  |
Cookee Wellington |
1 user liked this useful post by cookee_nz
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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Hello Cookee & Jacques, Thanks for your input on his thread. Cookee, after your photo and post I took a good look at some of my wagons with this type Kupplung (coupler). It looks like there are to small tabs that are folded over to hold the wide precoupler in place. These tabs sit lower tan the other parts of the assembly and look lie the seat right in the bottom of the 1/2 loop. I tried to show it on a picture here.  
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2 users liked this useful post by White Buffalo
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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one negative aspect about this coupler I found is that when they do bend in this curved area it is difficult the get them back to there original shape. When I have bent them back the metal is weaker and sometimes just breaks. This is what I experienced on a 3011 E-Lok I have with these couplers. On a positive note I did find a 4612 Auto Transport with these couplers on eBay for $23 US. 
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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To celebrate , I grabbed ein Bier, und had a parade mit alle Type 6 wide Couplers.......
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4 users liked this useful post by White Buffalo
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Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC) Posts: 2,883 Location: South Western France
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Originally Posted by: cookee_nz I took a close look at my 315/2 Crane Wagon and am intrigued by the wave shape of the coupler? It's perfectly formed exactly the same on both ends so I believe this is how they are made (rather than bent later), but why shaped like this?. Are others like this?, it's not really noticeable unless you are looking side-on. Cheers ..... Sorry Cookee, but couplers were never manufactured that way! Depending on the vehicle they are attached to, you will often have a bend part, but only on the stem, never on the area around the coupling loop. Specifically , on the crane wagon, the coupler part number was 70 154 I don't have a specific picture showing that coupler alone , but here is a picture of an "exploded" coupler wityh its components as was included in the 4912 kit to build the exact same crane  I don't want to split hairs, but I just think the one in your picture has been "well played with", and that's great! But it's easy to straighten ... Cheers Jacques |
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success! |
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 Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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 Originally Posted by: jvuye the couplers were probably the largest quantity line item component manufactured at Märklin! (And probably still are!) I think that usually there's at least 4 wheels manufactured everytime 2 couplers are made Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.  |
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Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC) Posts: 2,883 Location: South Western France
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Hi Per! Touché! I knew I could count on you for some wise-cracks.  Wheels/axles however are much simpler to manufacture, and there are several diameters and axle types.  Cheers |
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success! |
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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,528 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
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Originally Posted by: jvuye Hi Per! Touché! I knew I could count on you for some wise-cracks. Wheels/axles however are much simpler to manufacture, and there are several diameters and axle types. Cheers  Cheers Per. |
If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law. |
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 Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,478 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: jvuye Hi Per! Touché! I knew I could count on you for some wise-cracks. Wheels/axles however are much simpler to manufacture, and there are several diameters and axle types. Cheers Yeah, but having seen the punch machine that punches the coupling parts out of flat sheet, and part sorting machine that puts all the parts together in the right order and orientation at the Marklin open days, I don't think they could make the coupling manufacture any more simpler ...
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 Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC) Posts: 3,563 Location: Paris, France
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Hi I think probably, during a short period (of 1956) Märklin produced these couplings with "waves" Here is a picture of Märklin german 1956 catalogue (page 29) You see the exact same couplings  I agree though that the vast majority of wide precoupler are straight. The only one I have on a SET800 is straight (unlike the picture above). cheers Jean |
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Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington
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Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Hi
I think probably, during a short period (of 1956) Märklin produced these couplings with "waves"
Here is a picture of Märklin german 1956 catalogue (page 29)
You see the exact same couplings
(snip)
I agree though that the vast majority of wide precoupler are straight.
The only one I have on a SET800 is straight (unlike the picture above).
cheers
Jean
Cheers Jean, that's a very clear picture and is EXACTLY how mine are. Let's see some close-up images of the same coupler without waves - unless someone thought they were 'bent' and straightened them!!! Oooops No offence to anyone for respected feedback but as I said, the 'waves' in these two couplings are identical, and perfectly formed. I've dealt with enough precision parts over the years from my Cash-Register, Typewriter and Printer days to recognise something that is 'bent' vs. something original. I still hold to the view that these couplings I referred to left the factory like that and someone will surely find other examples to add. If not, I'll need some Ketchup for my Homburg!! Cookee  |
Cookee Wellington |
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Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC) Posts: 2,883 Location: South Western France
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Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Hi
I think probably, during a short period (of 1956) Märklin produced these couplings with "waves"
Here is a picture of Märklin german 1956 catalogue (page 29)
You see the exact same couplings
(snip)
I agree though that the vast majority of wide precoupler are straight.
The only one I have on a SET800 is straight (unlike the picture above).
cheers
Jean
Cheers Jean, that's a very clear picture and is EXACTLY how mine are. Let's see some close-up images of the same coupler without waves - unless someone thought they were 'bent' and straightened them!!! Oooops No offence to anyone for respected feedback but as I said, the 'waves' in these two couplings are identical, and perfectly formed. I've dealt with enough precision parts over the years from my Cash-Register, Typewriter and Printer days to recognise something that is 'bent' vs. something original. I still hold to the view that these couplings I referred to left the factory like that and someone will surely find other examples to add. If not, I'll need some Ketchup for my Homburg!! Cookee .... Well, I must admit Cookee is right and I was wrong! I just looked at all the cars I have from that era, and they indeed all have the "wave" couplers! I definitely stand corrected. After so many years (...close to 7 decades!) of dealing with Märklin trains , this is proof that you never know it all! To my defense, I never got these type of couplers as spares, because in my days of Märklin servicing only the straight ones were available. Cheers Jacques Edited by moderator 09 February 2019 16:21:15(UTC)
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Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success! |
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 Joined: 27/02/2013(UTC) Posts: 25 Location: zurich
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Hello all, recently I found two locomotives with the wide precoupler. a GN 800/3009    and SET 800    These wide precouplings were also used til early 1957 - as here on the 4613   enjoy Rei/Zürich |
railroading is fun!
REI
collecting diecast and tinplate - what else?
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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Besten Dank rei800, Great photos (tolles Fotos! ) I will update the list: updated list Typ 6 breite Vorentkupplung Type 6 Wide Precoupler Freight cars - Güterwagen 310/1 (4600) baggage car - Gepäckwagen 311/1 (4601) open goods car - Offener Güterwagen mit Bremserhaus 312/1 (4605) Swiss freight car - Gedeckter Güterwagen mit Bremserhaus 313/1 (4606) low sided freight car - Niederbordwagen 313/2 (4608) log carrier - Stammholzwagen 313/3 (4609) Planewagen - Tarped car with Märklin logo 315/1 (4610) ballast car - Schotterwagen 315/2 (4611) Crane car - Kranwagen 315/4 G (4613) Auto transport car - Autotransportwagen Locomotives - Lokomotiven DA 800 Dampflok BR 23 mit Tender - 2-6-2 Class 23 Steam engine with tender FM 800 Dampflok BR 24 mit Tender - 2-6-0 Class 24 Steam engine with tender GN 800 (3009) Baureihe 44 Dampflok - 2-10-0 Heavy goods steam locomotive TM 800 Tenderlok - 0-6-0 Tender Locomotive SET 800 (3011) E-Lok Baureihe E 44 - Electric Locomotive 0-4-4-0 also possibly found on: 4602 Open Goods Car - Offener Güterwagen 4614 Container Car - Behältertragwagen 4616 Low Sided Car with black pipe load - Niederbordwagen mit schwarzem Rohr
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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I just found another Lokomotive to add to the list. F800(3008) version 5 in Koll's Katalog has the breite Vorentkupplung.
updated list
Typ 6 breite Vorentkupplung
Type 6 Wide Precoupler
Freight cars - Güterwagen
310/1 (4600) baggage car - Gepäckwagen
311/1 (4601) open goods car - Offener Güterwagen mit Bremserhaus
312/1 (4605) Swiss freight car - Gedeckter Güterwagen mit Bremserhaus
313/1 (4606) low sided freight car - Niederbordwagen
313/2 (4608) log carrier - Stammholzwagen
313/3 (4609) Planewagen - Tarped car with Märklin logo
315/1 (4610) ballast car - Schotterwagen
315/2 (4611) Crane car - Kranwagen
315/4 G (4613) Auto transport car - Autotransportwagen
Locomotives - Lokomotiven
DA 800 Dampflok BR 23 mit Tender - 2-6-2 Class 23 Steam engine with tender
F800(3008) Dampflok Baureihe 01 mit Schwießtender - 4-6-2 Class 01 Stem Engine
FM 800 Dampflok BR 24 mit Tender - 2-6-0 Class 24 Steam engine with tender
GN 800 (3009) Baureihe 44 Dampflok - 2-10-0 Heavy goods steam locomotive
TM 800 Tenderlok - 0-6-0 Tender Locomotive
SET 800 (3011) E-Lok Baureihe E 44 - Electric Locomotive 0-4-4-0
also possibly found on:
4602 Open Goods Car - Offener Güterwagen
4614 Container Car - Behältertragwagen
4616 Low Sided Car with black pipe load - Niederbordwagen mit schwarzem Rohr
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Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 11,165
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Seems like the 4613 with 4 Ford Taunuses I got for Christmas '63 (my start with Märklin) actually was a 1956 model...   |
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
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Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington
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Photo!! no photo, didn't happen |
Cookee Wellington |
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Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington
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Originally Posted by: rei800 Hello all, recently I found two locomotives with the wide precoupler. a GN 800/3009 (repeat images snipped) and SET 800 (repeat images snipped) These wide precouplings were also used til early 1957 - as here on the 4613 enjoy Rei/Zürich Hello Rei, I'm just reviewing this post. Interesting that they may have carried into 1957 also. If you have those items handy, could you please add images of the date codes from the box flaps? Kind regards Steve Edited by user 14 November 2021 09:14:49(UTC)
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Cookee Wellington |
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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finally adding a GN 800 to the roster - Don should be mailing her out sometime next week...... Sorry - no box for this beauty  
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Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC) Posts: 2,976 Location: CA, USA
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Nice Rich!
I just came upon a set of 4-5 of these cars with a TT800, all purchased together. (presumably in 56?) I had a glance at the thread and couldn't decode the answer to the mystery (although maybe because we don't know) - why the fast exit of the couplers?
Cheers all,
-JP |
SBB Era 2-5 |
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Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC) Posts: 508 Location: South Dakota
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Don’t know JP, if this were a US government operation I would assume that they stop making them because they worked so good 😜
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