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Offline Artologic  
#1 Posted : 04 June 2018 15:49:25(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 496
Hey Everyone,

Today I recieved my long wanted "Hofzug Kaiser Wilhelm II", but when I put the loco on the track, it just jams up it's big driving wheels. I have checked quartering, and the condition of the driving wheels. Everything looks ok, but still the loco keeps on jamming it wheels. Has anyone experienced something simular of know how to fix it?

I also attached pictures of how it looks when it jams, it starts as 3 nicely lined up wheels btw...

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Thanks in advance,

Kristof
Offline Torstein  
#2 Posted : 04 June 2018 17:36:45(UTC)
Torstein

Norway   
Joined: 27/03/2010(UTC)
Posts: 338
Location: Norway
Hi Kristof.

Take a look at the driving rods in your last picture. The two first wheels will move the rods forward the last one will move it backwards. The third wheel set is in wrong position. You have to get the rods in line. Somebody have tried to turn the motor with the hands on the wheels - I think.

my 2 cent.

Torstein.
Offline Artologic  
#3 Posted : 04 June 2018 17:54:37(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 496
Hey Torstein,

Thanks for the reply. The motor can t be turned by hand (it has a wormgear), but the wheels/ rods started as lined up and end this way for some reason. I checked them and they were in the right position to start with, but they end up jammed every time. I m starting to suspect that the holes with screws in the rods have too much play...

Kristof
Offline David Dewar  
#4 Posted : 04 June 2018 17:57:36(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
Looking at the picture the rear wheel looks wrong.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline ktsolias  
#5 Posted : 04 June 2018 18:46:48(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Athens
The rear wheels are out of quartering and lining with the others
Don't try to turn the wheels by hand or with the motor because you will do things worse.
Either you will jam the driving rods or slip the wheels.
Ask help from somebody who has experience with these problems (and the right tools may be) to repair the loco.

The solution actually is very simple in this loco and the only think required is to open the underneath cover of the wheels (two screws) and rearrange the wheels. Is not very easy and must be very careful if you decide to do this by yourself.

Capture.JPG

After the loco wheels must be something like that:

90b4c273-d851-43aa-a152-033e44d5085b.jpg

Costas
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Offline Artologic  
#6 Posted : 09 June 2018 10:41:17(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 496
Thanks everybody for the help and replies.

I have looked at the loco again, and made some pictures after checking everything out again. It still keeps on jamming up, even while the wheels look ok to me, the gear on its own is running totally free. Did I still miss something?

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Thanks a lot

Kristof
Offline tiono  
#7 Posted : 09 June 2018 11:39:48(UTC)
tiono

United States   
Joined: 09/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 234
Seems as the wheels are mis-aligned.
The driving rod's position should be differential by 90 degree between left side and right side wheels. (see diagram below):


UserPostedImage
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Offline MalinAC  
#8 Posted : 09 June 2018 13:49:39(UTC)
MalinAC

Ireland   
Joined: 29/05/2014(UTC)
Posts: 839
Location: DONEGAL, CARNDONAGH
I always wondered what the correct position was side to side. Very helpful post . Eddie
Offline kiwiAlan  
#9 Posted : 09 June 2018 14:17:25(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: tiono Go to Quoted Post
Seems as the wheels are mis-aligned.
The driving rod's position should be differential by 90 degree between left side and right side wheels. (see diagram below):


UserPostedImage


I would agree with this.

very well illustrated as well. ThumpUp

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Offline Artologic  
#10 Posted : 09 June 2018 16:46:17(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 496
Thanks for the replies!

I knew that engines were quarter in 90degrees, but maybe a dumb question from my side on, but werent 3 cilinder differently quartered from 2 and 4 cilinder engines?

Kristof
Offline kiwiAlan  
#11 Posted : 09 June 2018 18:40:40(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Artologic Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the replies!

I knew that engines were quarter in 90degrees, but maybe a dumb question from my side on, but werent 3 cilinder differently quartered from 2 and 4 cilinder engines?

Kristof


No, it is more to do with how the drive is transferred to the wheels when the loco is stopped. If the wheels are 180 degrees out of phase then it is possible to stop the loco with one side having the crank at the rear most position, and the other at the front most position. In this situation the pistons cannot reliably start the loco from rest, as the crank doesn't know if it should push up or down, and the chances of both sides attempting to push the same way (up or down) means it sits stalled. I suspect this is what is happening with your loco as only one axle is driven, when the motion is transferred to the other wheels they turn the wrong way and lock up.

With the cranks set at 90 degrees then this situation cannot happen, as the pistons will always be pushed the correct way by the valve phasing, and motion will always be correct. I was told many years ago that a good engine driver would always get his engine stopped so that the crank on one side would always be at the top or bottom, which then gives maximum torque when starting again. I don't know how true this is, but we have a resident ex loc wrangler or two on the list who should be able to tell us.

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Offline Artologic  
#12 Posted : 10 June 2018 22:44:14(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 496
Hey Alan,

This is very interesting, I understand what you mean! A lot of the things I know, come from understanding how it works, I have quartered locos before, but I never knew why steam engines where quartered in the first place. Thank you very much for explaining this to me, very very interesting to know!

I also would like to know if the story about the real engines is true, it could very well be, since most locos always had the same enigineer, that thus knew their enigine very well.

A different question, perhaps you know the answer too, but if you have the left hand wheels (taken in the direction of travel) and the rod point fully forward, is the right side then in up or down position, or isn t there a rule about that?

Kristof
Offline river6109  
#13 Posted : 11 June 2018 03:34:40(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Kristof, I would suggest take a pen and draw one side on a piece of paper by recording the location of each wheel and than do the same on the other side and hopefully you'll find the discrepancy concerning the wheels location.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline ktsolias  
#14 Posted : 11 June 2018 09:12:26(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Athens
I personally use a small mirror on the opposite side so I have both sides in view at the same time

Costas
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Offline Artologic  
#15 Posted : 11 June 2018 11:57:34(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 496
Thanks for the replies,

@John: I found out what it is already, they arent quartered but are rather standing at a 170 degree angle, thus it doesn t run properly.

@Costas: That s a good tip, I never tought of that, I just turned the loco around to check.

Kristof
Offline river6109  
#16 Posted : 11 June 2018 13:20:20(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Artologic Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the replies,

@John: I found out what it is already, they arent quartered but are rather standing at a 170 degree angle, thus it doesn t run properly.

@Costas: That s a good tip, I never tought of that, I just turned the loco around to check.

Kristof


Kristof, so can you fix it ? is it just a matter of aligning an axle to the right degree ? looks like someone took it apart and didn't put it back properly.

I had a couple BR 94 for repair and there was a similar problem the axle with its spacers wasn't put back properly and lucky enough nothing else was damaged while running

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 11 June 2018 15:00:55(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Artologic Go to Quoted Post
Hey Alan,

This is very interesting, I understand what you mean! A lot of the things I know, come from understanding how it works, I have quartered locos before, but I never knew why steam engines where quartered in the first place. Thank you very much for explaining this to me, very very interesting to know!

I also would like to know if the story about the real engines is true, it could very well be, since most locos always had the same enigineer, that thus knew their enigine very well.

A different question, perhaps you know the answer too, but if you have the left hand wheels (taken in the direction of travel) and the rod point fully forward, is the right side then in up or down position, or isn t there a rule about that?

Kristof


Any rule about which way they are quartered would be reliant on the mechanics of the valve mechanism that determines which cylinder the steam is going into from the boiler. On this basis the quartering could be opposite between locomotive families, although I would have thought that a new loco family would reuse a lot of design from previous ones, just scaling up or down as needed rather than doing a new design from scratch.
Offline jvuye  
#18 Posted : 11 June 2018 15:33:36(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Hi Kristof
I understand the frustration: I have experienced it often from many people who were sending me their locos for repair...

(And often, these locos were eBay purchases from undelicate sellers....)

First of all, check **on each individual axle** that the wheels on both sides are locked (at 90° ) on their axle .

If you can move one wheel relative to the other on the same axle (even the slightest!) , look no further.

Re-locking is **not straightforward** , once the assembly has been compromised.

To repair such cases I take the offending axle(s) out , remove the "sliding" wheel and knurl the corresponding shaft end before re-inserting + quartering the wheel.

Not easy, you need a lathe fitted with a double wheel knurling tool (absolutely required for such small diameters) and a precision wheel press with corresponding quartering attachement.

The only way to test the repair is to temporarily remove the motor, so that the whole assembly can be tested for smooth rotation. (you had to do that anyway if you wanted to remove the axle from the chassis!)

The discussion on 2,3 or 4 cylinders quartering is another story....Wink (and we can discuss it later if you want, whe have a number of true experts here. Hi, Tom! Wink !)

Tell us what you find.

Cheers

Jacques

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline Artologic  
#19 Posted : 11 June 2018 21:22:02(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 496
Hey Jacques,

Thanks for the reply! This loco isn t your typical marklin construction, in the fact that by loosing the bottom plate, the axles and wheels simply drop out. They are not "stuck" like the regular marklin loco. I think this is a -from origin- trix designed loco.

The wheels were at a 170degree angle, so I changed to what should be, 90 degrees. Everything is fine on that matter now (it runs like a champ, but the cars run too heavy to be very good, but that s an issue I can easily solve).

I wanted to check the gears on the inside, but it seems I can t remove the boiler (anyone know how to do it???), there should be a screw under the chimney, but the chimney doesn t want to come off.

About the discussion, please do, it sounds really intersting!

In attachment, two pictures of the current quartering.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Kristof

Ps: Anyone know where to get the or a fitting compressor and the grip on the front at the front end of the boiler?
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Offline franciscohg  
#20 Posted : 11 June 2018 21:30:17(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
Hello, yes, to take off the boiler you must retire the chimney, sometimes it is hard. Also you have to remove the cabin. Be very careful with plastic part, after.all these years they brake easily. Post a picture of what you need, I might have some parts.
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline ktsolias  
#21 Posted : 11 June 2018 21:38:21(UTC)
ktsolias

Greece   
Joined: 01/05/2016(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Athens
Hi Kristof

Congratulations for the success!!!

This Loco is the 33190.10 (Koll's 2018)

And here is the plan of the Loco where you can see how you can dismalt the Loco

33190_explo.pdf (319kb) downloaded 79 time(s).

To take off the body you need to reach and unscrew the screws No 7, and No 9 x 2

Is a well known problem of the set the running problems. With a search in the net you will find some solutions...

Regards

Costas


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Offline kiwiAlan  
#22 Posted : 11 June 2018 23:24:54(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Artologic Go to Quoted Post
(it runs like a champ, but the cars run too heavy to be very good, but that s an issue I can easily solve).


I believe Marklin came out with a weight to add to the loco. I never heard the details other than becoming aware of it through the grapevine, although I have some hazy memory that the weight was to be stuck under the roof of the cab.

I presume that having three pickup shoes under the coaches was just too much drag for the loco to pull.
Offline Ross  
#23 Posted : 12 June 2018 00:16:42(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 868
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Kristof/All,

Please read page 15-16 of my Strange Bits Log Part 1 to see how I added weight to the loco.

Page 32 shows how to prevent potential short circuits for the coaches of this train.

Strange Bits Log part 1

Hope it helps you.

Ross
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Offline dickinsonj  
#24 Posted : 12 June 2018 01:20:53(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Well one problem is that in some of the first pictures the rods were not properly aligned on the side shown. They need to be as close as possible to all being in the same phase. If they are not, then they will bind. The classic photo pose is rods down BTW. Cool

I have had some locos where the wheels were not tightly fixed on the axles, which will often cause the wheels on a side to get out of alignment. But when this is the case the two sides can get out of phase as well. So the advice that you are getting here is critical - the sides must be out of phase from side to side by 90 degrees. That way one side is in the middle of its power stroke while the other side is changing direction. Since all recent Märklin steamers have had just one gear driven axle, they are rod driven as well and the same problem will lock them up every time. That is what quartering accomplishes so be sure to check that.

You need to get the wheels properly fixed on the axles, get the wheels on each side properly aligned and then set the correct phase between sides, or it will never operate correctly.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline Artologic  
#25 Posted : 12 June 2018 13:44:18(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 496
Hello Everyone,

Thanks a lot for so much replies!

First of all, I seemed to skipped the reply to river6109 last reply: Yes I was able to fix it, but I think you are right that it was taken apart. If I read your story about the e94, it s a shame that some people don t tell about what they do/ did to their locos, it would make things so much easier. Luckily you were able to fix it without damage!

@Franciscohg & Ktsolias: Is it just plain pull upwards and that s it, or do I have to turn it? The drawing doesn t really explain it. The 2x 9 I already found, but I put them back, since the chimney wasnt coming off.

@Ktsolias: Thanks, I did, it is strange that they delivered it like that, is the new kpev version better in that persepective? Otherwise I would try to get one of those and swap them over, so that the loco from the 2681 can pull a few tin plate coaches.

@Franciscohg: I uploaded some pictures with the parts circled. The parts I m looking for are the compressor (I think it is) and the attach thingies for the handlebar at the front of the boiler.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

@KiwiAlan: If the new version is a better puller, I would prefer to switch them over in time, since I have 3 tin plate coaches that need an engine too, and my current loco should be able to pull them. There are only 2 pickup shoes under the coaches, but I have the impression that the wheel contacts are the real cause of the drag (the weight set aside).

@Ross: Very interesting, I ll keep it in mind, for when I don t swap the loco s over. The short cirquit thing is a good thing to keep in mind, the coaches still need to be checked, so I ll take that along when I m checking them. Your part about the loco loosing it s paint is very interesting too, since mine is going bald on some places too. Also, it s nice to see that I m not the only one having all such stupid things hahaha. I ll bookmark your link. Thanks!

@Dickinsonj: Thanks for the reply, in the meanwhile, the wheels have been put in correctly and they are secured on their axles. The loco is now running properly, hauling it s ass off with the heavy coaches hahaha. Thanks for the tip about the photopose! I ll keep that in mind, since it s very interesting!

Regards,

Kristof

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Offline franciscohg  
#26 Posted : 15 June 2018 04:12:05(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
Hello, well those are commonly loose parts.
the compressor came as one piece with all the siding. I have not managed to get one, look as a regular basis on ebay.de for bastler locos or loose parts. They come online from time to time.
tThe handlebar can be adapted with parts of newer locos, the attach thingies are a little too bit large to insert, so you have to drill a little, really easy though
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline Artologic  
#27 Posted : 17 June 2018 19:18:54(UTC)
Artologic

Belgium   
Joined: 21/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 496
Hey Franciscohg,

I imagined so much already, too bad they are so easily lost. Thanks for looking and the tip about ebay, I ll keep an out if a compressor pops up, in parts or as bastler. It s just about seeing it in time and scoring it for a correct price.

The handlebar thing I ll try, I ll look around on my other steamers, which looks mostly the same. Thanks for pointing it out.

Regards,

Kristof
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