Hi everyone,

I had my original first generation ecos recently go kaputz on me during a software update. Sadly nobody seems to know a fix, and it will no longer read mfx, and gets amnesia in terms of layout and programming memory. Otherwise it does indeed work, but doesn't do me a ton of good as it doesn't remember my layout and decoder programming is a bit of a headache.

Anyhow, moving on. I'm begrudgingly committing the fortune needed to buy a new controller. Its seemingly down to a CS3 vs the new ECOS. Can anyone in simple terms elaborate on what might be capable of that the other isnt? Or any other pros and cons of the product?

I'm strongly leaning towards the ecos for cost and support reasons, (in the US both are issues with marklin), but I could immediately be swayed towards marklin if there is a good product reason to do so.

Any advice is appreciated!

Hi!
Yes. Try to get your hands on all the potential controllers before making a purchase decision.

I prefer the CS2 over the CS3. But since the last CS2 update a lot of things are different and programming an mfx locos means trial and error again.
But my favourite would be the ECoS.


With the ECoS I like loco selection by address, filtering the loco selection list by diesel/steam/electrics and by fav1/fav2/fav3. I like the choice between single and multi mode for each of the controllers, I like the ability to swap locos between left and right controller (especially useful when one controller is single and the other is multi).

The CS 60212 was the only Märklin controller with support for 28 speed steps with the MM protocol. The ECoS has it.
The CS2 treats all MM locos as MM 27, with the ECoS I can choose between MM 14, MM 27 and MM 28 to get the best results. I know what I'm doing, the MM 27 approach of the CS2 is a compromise that will reduce support incidents.


John, what do you particularly like about your ECoS? Maybe we can work out what you'd be missing with a CS3.

53451? Yes.
There are some limitations with ESU mfx decoders in locos with C Sine motors. You may have to install the decoder in a non-C Sine loco or a decoder tester to make changes.

For Märklin mfx decoders and other non-ESU decoders you can only use DCC CV programming, not the decoder-specific fancy LokProgrammer UI. And if it is a decoder without DCC then you can only use the MS2 to change very few values.
You cannot upload sound to non-ESU decoders.

You can even test-run locos on the programming track using the LokProgrammer (DCC or MM protocol).

In my opinion, the CS3 does not work anywhere near advertized functionality. I have severe problems with mine as a number of forum
members do. Updating, manually loading addresses in ESU decoders not to mention that the touch screen can be a pain at times.
I am going to ride it out a while and work with the issues but I should not have to be going through this. I still have my CS2 which after
a lot of updates was better.

If I were buying today it would be ECOS - it is reported to be reliable and has more power output. I am not sure about Lok pictures and how
that works as I do not think they have a library of Marklin photos built in. Maybe someone can explain how that works.

Eric

And if you only need the very basic functions from the locomotives, the Z21 supports MM and has a pretty good interface and ability to use tablets to control the layout via a web interface.

Please note; The Marklin CS3+ and the Marklin 60065 that I had for sale has now been sold.

Regards,

Michel

I understand what HO is saying having been let down with the original CS which came from ESU. However they have now split form ESU and I don't buy ESU locos or coaches and they don't make C track so as I said I don't need them but I do need Marklin.
As in previous threads all ESU owners come to their defence which is what I would do if I owned one.
The way I look at it is of Marklin goes bust it is a disaster but if ESU goes bust it is unfortunate and I would not want it to happen but it is not a disaster for the hobby.
Everybody has a choice of what they buy and i have bought Brawa in the past but again I don't need them as they do not provide a complete service for the hobby.
I had an original CS which was not great but now I have no probs with the later model which has nothing to do with ESU. When I buy my CS3 it may have problems although hopefully not but it wont deter me from Marklin.
As our orginal poster says ESU is about cost and support so that is what to go for if that is what is required;.

As a matter of interest what is the warranty from Marklin if using another manufacturers control system with their locos etc.

Anyway no need for the Marklin v ESU stuff as everybody just buys what they like and I fully respect that.

guys- no arguments please. Its silly, and we can all make our own choices. I started this thread simply to ask the pros and cons before I make my largest hobby purchase of the year. As stated earlier I can buy either just as easily, and for me its a matter of functionality followed by support/warranty, not the name on the box.

I appreciate all of your feedback. I'm going to dig a bit more before making any decisions, but so far replacing my Ecos is likely the way I'll go.

Seems to me that if you expect to ever want to play with the MFX+ world of operations features of the locomotives that have it the CS3/plus is the way to go, otherwise its a cosmetic/user interface/personal taste choice.

David,
I would be very carefull before you buy a CS3. It is very flawed. I have gone from analouge to the 6021, cs2 and now the CS3.While the concept and design are great it simply does not work now.
I was an early adopter of the CS2 ansd struggled through many updates. It is informative that they are still issuuing updates.
To day the CS3 is a piece of XXXX.,
Eric

Märklin Germany are not legally provided to give any warranty to customers who bought Märklin products from third parties. So they can limit their warranty in any way they like.
But they are legally required to fulfil the warranty as advertised. The warranty conditions can be found in the new items brochure.
AIUI you do not void the warranty of Märklin locos when you lube them with Fleischmann oil, or install Roco couplers, or drive them with an ECoS or Intellibox, or replace brushes as shown in the manual.

German professional dealers are legally required to give you two years of warranty (can be reduced to one year for second-hand items). Dealers can hardly get out of this warranty in the first six month unless they proof the customer made a mistake.


I know this is a Märklin forum and anybody who dare criticise Märklin gets told to move to a Roco forum, a Piko forum, or an ESU forum.

I buy rolling stock from many different brands, including Märklin. I buy when I expect to get good value for my money.
Because I buy many different brands I know that

• Märklin is and was a reseller for many other brands and
  
• that some of Märklin's own products are just mediocre.

Because Märklin sold and sell many other brands in Märklin boxes, I'm amused when I read "I buy Märklin only".

I'm happy with my Märklin Central Station 60212 - and if it should fail one day I will probably buy an ECoS from the company that made the Märklin Central Station 60212.
How much Komtron is in the CS2? Who was the development partner for the CS3?

From my PC I'm used to industrial standards: I can buy CPU, motherboard, HDD, and DVD drive from different brands and they will work together.
MRR is less standardised, but e.g. decoder sockets and LocoNet (supported by my Central Station) allow some mixing.

If you want RailCom, RailCom+, or LocoNet then you can get it with an ECoS, but not with a CS2 or CS3.
OTOH there is no mfx+ with an ECoS.
Those who buy an ECoS can enjoy mfx+ with the PC version of the CS2 software.

Interesting re the warranty Tom and thanks for info.
Regarding your ECOS I think l it would be fair to say you are a model rail enthusiast and purchase what you like best and I expect many do exactly the same. I just prefer Marklin as their products have not let me down and they need to stay in business or some other company has to start making C track. Would like to see an ECOS working but here nobody I know has one and there are no sellers. Same of course can be said that there are no marklin sellers either.

I suspect many people already have an old PC laying around they can use to run the exe, if that's all it takes to add the MFX+ experience. The plugging in of equipment is really pretty trivial such as I don't expect that to a barrier or inconvenience for someone going deep Wnough to run in MFX+ mode.

But as I'd prefer a PC control interface anyway, eliminating both expensive consoles is the ideal, just needing a way to get the commands into the digital track signal , so then the least expensive option is more important than the brand necessarily.

In that case neither the CS3 nor the ECoS is really relevant, unless you want mfx of course.

You could get by with a simple DCC and/or MM station.

I just believe that a lot of users are not interested in having both pc and network and all sorts of extra gear. They just want one controller (like CS or ECoS). A "one box" solution.

True, for some group of folks a single box on the layout to control it all is the solution.

In my case, I'm hoping the mfx capabilites of the BananaPi + Gleisbox solution will work well, and then I'll need to only fire up CS2.exe if I want to play mfx+ world of operation with a locomotive - though one then has to be carefull with the automation over WinDigipet/TrainController as those programs wont' know about what your doing with your manually controlled train that isn't being operated via the interface of from PC control. In an ideal world WDP/TC would some day add a module to do mfx+ things, but I'm not holding my breath.

Indeed. A reasonably priced base box that is network to track and power with a web interface like the black Z21. Then sell as an add-on module any control/touchscreen/layout necessary hardware that clips on top of that base box and gets you what is effectively a CS3/3+. I'd buy that base in a heartbeat. It keeps the option of expanding with the add on part later, but lets those that don't want the knobs and touchscreen and management of the layout part there, not have to buy those things.

Then if they licensed the mfx+ world of operations stuff and provided a feedback API that worked so that one could tie addressing consumable/service issues to the locations on the layout (be they in the CS3 add on box, or via an API to external software), better still.

But as they have such problems just standing up a functional CS3, its clear that software and complex APIs are not at all a skill Märklin has; they are a manufacturing company that does just enough technology because it has to; they would have to expand their technology capabilities and personnel, and its not clear the market would sustain that sort of financial investment/risk.

But one can dream.

With the PC software you can evaluate mfx+ without any costs.

mfx+ is not a loco simulator, it is just a graphic UI to operate model trains. Procedures that make an mfx+ steam loco run fast would make a real steam loco explode.

I knew after less than 30 minutes that mfx+ is of no value for me.


Oh, so the PC software works well enough with a cs1 reloaded?

I think this is the ESU CS1 reloaded kit, which reflashes the software to run an ecos software in the marklin box. It made my CS1 go from the junk pile to useable!

The newest ECoS is what, 8 years old? Yees a "new" one came last year, but hardly new except more power output. Nothing else.

The software got a pretty cool update a few years ago with great performance improvements. To my knowledge it still doesn't do the same degree of automation as the CS2/CS3 but it does do some nifty things with RailCom that the CS obviously cannot do.

The graphics on the ECoS looks like 1995 computer game and does not have the same coolness as the CS3. But that is of course more a personal preference.

I rate usability higher than cool looks.
On the CS3 the control panels for the locos are attached popup windows. You can move them around, you can resize them, you can hide them. So cool!

My fingers are too thick and too often when I try to control anything about the loco, I instead move or resize the window.

That is one reason why I advise to get the hands on both devices and try how they work for you.

No, because the software on the CS3 has to support the L.Net adapter, and Marklin won't do that for a 3rd party device, especially one made by ESU.

There is also a limitation with the L.Net adapter in that it wants to be the master Loconet device. You can't use a second L.Net adapter with a second Ecos as a slave unit.

I have a CS2, two CS1's (one of which is reloaded) and an original Ecos (Nev's old one actually), but I don't have a CS3 as yet. I like how Marklin have made it possible to have multiple controllers connected together.

I also like many of the features of the Ecos - as Tom points out, you can have multiple locos on a throttle window, and you can swap locos between the left and right throttle windows.

I think the Marklin controllers work best with Marklin locos, if you have locos from many manufacturers then the Ecos might be a better choice.

It doesn´t matter.
So long there is digital contact works between decoder and the central it works.
The difference are quality and mostly use ESU sound decoder than Märklins.

CS1, ECoS, CS2, and CS3 all use the CAN bus.
But CS2 and MS2 introduced a new, incompatible protocol. CS2 supports the protocols for MS1 and MS2, but CS1/ECoS only support the MS1.

The ECoSBoost can be used with the CS1 (even without ESU update), but probably not with CS2 or CS3.
The L.Net adapter works with ECoS and CS1R. Märklin could make the CS2 or CS3 use it too, if they wanted and if they worked with ESU.


With respect to unique features: CS1 and ECoS have the Sniffer port. You can attach the output of other digital controllers to the Sniffer port and use them as additional throttles.
The Sniffer port also allows you to control which locos can be controlled. You can e.g. attach an MS2/trackbox to the Sniffer and use it for children or visitors and limit which trains they can control.
You can also use a CS2 as a slave by connecting it to the Sniffer.

I have only first hand experience with Marklin CS controllers, but the main differences I have observed is (which I belie you asking for in your first post):

For Marklin
CS3 has better Color display/resolution with more modern display menus
More sophisticated route automation
Has Mfx+ simulation mode
Super fast Mfx registration
Regular updates and Marklin does seem to continue improve product

Against Marklin
Difficult to use display with fingers
Issues with CV programming for DCC decoders
Speed knobs not accurately enough so each click does not represent a single speed step.
Manuals are written in German and then poorly translated
Limited flexibility in power output

For Esu
Experts in decoders and sound simulations
Good robust product
You can buy replacement parts (e.g. new speed knobs)
Excellent well written English manuals
You can choose power output

Against Esu
Outdated display including train icons etc.
Basic route automation
Controller hardware not been updated in years
Slow Mfx registration (can take up 2 minutes)

Which controller depends on your needs and preferences. What works for some will not work for others. If I mainly had non Mfx locomotives I would choose Esu, but if you have mainly Mfx loco and want to do some automation with your central station then you might be better off with Marklin.

Good luck!

Brgds Lasse

For those that can read German (I can't!), I just came across a review of the Ecos in the January 2011 edition of Digitale Modellbahn (page 10)

Digitale Modellbahn 2011-01.pdf (11,149kb) downloaded 62 time(s).