This will be a digital, C-track layout. I'm building a 15x20 foot oval with a single track except for a second track along one of the the 20' sides. Approximately 90 feet of track total. Six switches. Three or four decouplers. Four to six signals. Everything will be controlled digitally. I'll be running no more than two locomotives at the same time. These will be digitally upgraded Marklin locomotives from the late 50s/early 60s: one a 4-6-2 with smoke, the second a 3021 diesel. Signals should stop the locomotives when necessary. There won't be any other layout accessorizing, though passenger cars may be lit internally.

I'm new to the digital way of things. My Marklin Super transformer gave up the ghost long ago.

Will this be the right complement of control and power hardware:

-- 60657 Mobile Station
-- 60116 Digital Connector Box
-- 60065 50VA switched mode power pack for 120 volts
-- appropriate turnouts with decoders
-- appropriate signals with decoders
-- 60842 m84 Decoder (don't really understand what this does)

Does power/data enter the track through one feeder point? Or is there additional wiring to additional feeder points? Does this require more boxes that need direct power?

This will be a tricky installation -- I won't be able to easily get to wiring after the layout is complete.

Anything else? Remember I know nothing about this other than what I'm gleaning from the Marklin catalog. I don't see a need for a Central Station.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Ah, good questions. Mixing analog and digital is likely a pain, so no active signals. In fact, therefore, no signals at all. Easy peasy.

What is connected to the extra power feeds? More boxes? Or do the leads go back to home base?

Trains will run independently as Mobile Station appears to be able to control two at once. Yes?

Hi,
Some quick thoughts:
1) you have to think why do you want all digital. Is it for having automated control? Or do you want to drive the 2 trains?

If the first option you may want to consider a central station or equivalent as it allows you to program events like departing trains, change turnouts, etc.

If you want to drive only 2 trains then you may not need to have digital turnouts - you can turn them by hand (Manual) or remotely with a electrical controller. You can also add a second mobile station with a cable if you need 2 controls simultaneous. Mobile station can only control 1 train at once, you need to keep changing trains to control more than one.

You can also use cheap marklin signals with m84 than can control the track power or not. It adds a lot the layout imho.

Regards
John

Hi JBB,

You can control up to 11 locomotives with a mobile station 2, however as it only has 1 red throttle knob to control speed, you cannot simultaneous control the speed of more than 1 locomotive. I.e. you then first have to choose the loco you want to control and then do the speed setting.

I suggest you just start with one mobile station if you find above limiting you can always buy another one.

To control solenoids digital you need an solenoid accessory decoder. A signal will be sent via your mobile station to the track and the accessory decoder will pick up the signal as it will have a red wire connected from your layout. The accessory decoder will activate its port in a few mili seconds and that it is enough to energise the solenoids in a turnout or the old fashion style semaphores signals. Previously Marklin called this decoder K83 but now a newer version is available called M83. In the older version the programming of the decoder is very basic and simple with small manual dip switches. In the newer version you can program the software for the decoder using an central station. For your layout I suggest just to buy the old type or even cheaper the equivalent Viessmann K83 decoder.

A switching decoder is used to power on/off section of tracks, light system and some signals. These were previously called K84 decoder but now the newer model is M84. Again with the newer version you can do quite sophisticated programming on the ports of the decoder.

To get a basic understanding of accessory decoder and switching decoder I suggest to download the manuals for Viessmann K83 and K84 decoder.

Brgds Lasse

yes, I forgot the extra turnouts for allowing some train switching. In which case, yes, you either need k83/M83 OR a manual push button switch control to change the turnouts. Each k83 module handles 4 turnouts. A k84 will handle 4 switched circuits (essentially it is 4x digital single pole double throw switches)

Not sure if the uncouplers demand k84 or k84 style controllers, certainly if you want to keep it real simple, the manual (analog) push button panels allow you to do both turnout (just press) or uncouplers (press and hold)

Is this layout going to be viewed from below? How about mounting the signals on the underside!? and small LED lights to show status of turnouts...?

I have only ever used the older style k83 and k84 modules so I can't comment much on the M83/4 items.

Turnouts in C-Track can have the decoder inside the turnout - nice if you make what we call carpet Bahns - literally carpet layouts - that are going to be assembled and disassembled often. One a permanent layout, servicing such a decoder requires you pull the track up. K83 and M83 modules can be placed near the turnouts or as far away as you like - depending on your preference of how you run the wires.

Each of the 4 parts of a k83 can handle either one double solenoid device (such as a turnout) or two uncouplers.

If you group devices in sets of 4 (Eg two turnouts plus 4 uncouplers) you can position the modules so that the wires are minimized.
Eg 1 turnout, two signals, 2 uncouplers

That control box is really just a set of 4 double pole momentary push buttons. Any electrical momentary switches will work (old style door bell buttons).

Can you create an illusion where the train (and its shelf) seem to go around a corner but in fact it slips away and a different train emerges...

I suggest you test out the uncouplers on a small test bed and see if you like how they work and if they are worth it. You will learn how the wiring all works and then you will be ready for the shelf layout.

yes running a good heavy brown and red around under the layout is highly recommended. Then you tap into that as needed. here is how I do it:
https://cabin-layout.blogspot.com/2002/02/wiring-track-feeds-to-bus-wires.html

You will probably also want a third wire to supply a 12V DC supply to items such as LEDs etc. You could also run 16V AC but if you are driving LEDs, DC will be cleaner.

I used house wiring. You wont be needing miles of it but it is nice to have distinct colors... So consider this:
https://cabin-layout.blogspot.com/2007/02/changing-wire-color.html

I don't think the turnout lanterns can be mounted easily on the underside. I would use different color LEDs, possibly latched to the turnout impulse.

Right you are, David, but expansion will likely never happen, though I will deliver power etc in way that will allow for some tweaking down the line.

This is being built on a shelf running above the window and doors. The shelf will be constructed as a lighting soffit, so architecturally it only reveals the layout when the trains are running -- otherwise it looks like a lighting cove. I'm considering adding a parallel section along a second wall, but I'll do this carefully so as not to spoil the decor. The layout itself won't have any scenery in the classic sense. I have some ideas for woodwork that will evoke mountains, trees, etc, but in a more impressionistic way. Think Frank Lloyd Wright windows as the inspiration.

Dale's ideas for indicator lamps imbedded below the shelf are intriguing. I'll also be installing cameras above the cove that will feed back to a quad display on a 65" screen, giving me a train yard control view of the part of the layout that will demand some control beyond just running in circles. That may or may not eliminate the need for under-shelf indicators. A CS3 is a possibility, so things will be future-proofed to allow for that if my interest doesn't drift to my RC gliders or who knows what. For now it's fun rediscovering my old childhood fascination.

I know this all sounds counter to the usual miniature diorama approach to model railroading, but I think when I finally post photos in a few months, it'll all become clear and not quite that weird. Or maybe not. Ha!

Appreciate the input. There's really no room here for any kind of control board. The layout lives on a soffit around my guest house living room. The MS2 will plug into a hidden jack in a book case. It's likely, however, given the limitations of the MS2 that I'll eventually upgrade to a CS3. Fun stuff.

I'd post a diagram of the layout but haven't figured out how to include pics in posts... I'll get there.

Blid: Thanks for the link. An ambitious and well-executed layout, indeed. I’ll be doing something a bit different, but seeing this gives me a few ideas.

Edited by user 05 January 2018 22:04:49(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

It's a beautiful concept. I wish beautiful wife would let me do that to one of our rooms! If you are going to all the trouble of mounting the single track on a "round the room" shelf, why not consider a pair of parallel ovals? This would allow you to run two trains at once. With the addition of two sidings and a little bit of analog automation you could bump it up to four trains, where each pair takes turns on a mainline.

to determine uncoupler placement I suggest making a small test length of track with one uncoupler to see if they work how you expect them to.
In my experience I never see anyone actually using them much (even when installed) most guys run a consist and at most change a loco, unless they are into actual switching, which you may be.

Do you expect the couplings to remain uncoupled after being pushed over the uncoupler?
Do you expect to uncouple a specific coupling when position over the uncoupler, and then reverse part of the train away?
If so do you want room on the siding for the loco to be uncoupled without the loco fouling the turnout? In which case the uncoupler should be safetymargin+locolength+1" away from the turnout (I would guess)
Do you expect them to reliably uncouple trains and do you expect to couple them up again with shunting movements?

quite frankly I just don't get uncouplers. The only prototype I know of that matches their utility is a hump yard...

I like the triple track at the top. And the fake bookshelf idea. Great place to hide a train.

The crossovers look reasonable, but they do provide what looks like very short tracks.

My personal approach would be to have 3 full length sidings at the 'top' and no mid track crossovers and no uncouplers. That track plan would allow you to keep 5 trains (I know you plan 2, but you could have 5 consists and 2 locos).

OK then, thank you both.

I’ll likely compress the crossover to allow for two long sections in the top siding track. This would allow for two different consists up there that could be swapped with the two consists on the locos. Only two uncouplers would be needed to make that practical. Remember that the siding is about 14 feet long, so that could make for two 4-5 foot consists.

The middle and bottom tracks are for passing on the main line, though I could add another crossover between them for parking something in a pinch, but I guess my configuration already accommodates that.

Me thinks I’ll be fiddling with this quite a bit before I screw the tracks to the shelf.

Dale: hidden spur in bookcase is a possibility I’m considering. Only for a very short train, but I do have a third 0-8-0 tank loco and small passenger cars. It would change the yard entry slightly on the left, but false book fronts would still work.

Cool!

looks great!

signal placement - place them where people can see them (you know this one)
then ahead of turnouts for entry and exit from sidings.

also, there are distant signals that show the aspect of the next main signal up the track... so you get to add more lights.... to avoid crazy complexity, I suggest you only use distant signals on your main line outside of the 'stations'.

If you decide that the passing siding will only ever run in one direction, then each only needs one exit signal.
One entry signal on each of the two approaches (going South)
One signal before the bookcase (going North in the plan above)
One signal before the switching area (also going North in the plan above)
Five exit signals for the switching area
If you like, another 4 small shunting signals at the crossover...

German signals are generally placed to the RIGHT of the track. If placed on the left (due to an obstruction) then there is an indicator on the right to that effect.

70421 is a block signal with two functions: GO and STOP. Just used for shunting areas and station areas
Entry and exit signals (in stations) are mainline home signals. Sometimes you have a combination of a block sign and a home signal. The block signal in that case is only valid for shunting and could be ignored by non shunting trains. The shunting trains may nott ignore a Hp0 (stop) on a home signal.

You can use the M signals but you also can have a look at the Viessmann signals. Very well build and reliable models. I use those signals for a long time (30+ years) with hardly no problems. Somewhat cheaper than Märklin.

I would rethink the use of a 3 way turn-out. Very often a source of problems. I removed all my 3 ways from the mainline for thsat reason.

Have you thought about a kind of protection about trains falling down. I won't think about falling my +500 euro locomotive falling down 2 meter after a derailment. Maybe you could use some clear plastic material as a protection..

Hi,

I would avoid triples 24630 and also the double slip switch 24624 in permanent layouts. They are a good source of derailing (at high speed, very long locos, or intermediate position of the turnouts - the mechanism is complex), shorts (eg caused by detunned couplers) and power losses (eg more complex for the middle conductor with small locomotives). If you can, try to use only turnouts and/or if you must even curved turnouts are ok since the mechanism is simple.

As for good and cheap signals I recommend looking at the 74391 (block), and 74371 (block/yard). They are very cheap and can easy be controlled with an m84 controller (each m84 controls up to 4 signals). You can also power the m84 decoder from the track if You are not loading the track very much, as I assume. They look very prototypical and you don’t see any wires running to the signal (as opposed to some viessmann signals). You can also add a 74380 (distant signal) that connects to the same entry of a block signal in an m84 (it has 4x connectors for block and distant signals) and so it changes the synchronous with the main signal, which adds a nice touch to the layout with very little money.

Regards,
John

Triple be gone.

As for signals:

Keep in mind that this layout is up on a shelf above eye level. While I assume a CS3 or MS2 allow for monitoring of signal and switch states, I do need to have some insurance that collisions are minimized. Hence, ALL the signals will directly affect locomotive travel. How that translates to block/yard and distant signals I don't quite understand, which is why I keep asking questions. Sorry about that.

Traffic will move in both directions on all lines. I know this complicates matters, but in my experience with challenging hobbies I tend to ramp up to full capability pretty quickly. I'm trying to do as comprehensive a build as possible, using all the advantages of digital control. All whilst trying to understand where I might be going overboard.

The layout itself is more or less locked unless someone has a cool idea. Latest below.

Functionality is most important, money least -- I can always temper the spending when the little woman gives me that look, but luckily she's into* this particular escapade (* a little).

I like semaphores, and they probably take the role of mainline entry and exit signaling, yes? Showy is good if it enhances understanding where things are at. There will be live video feeds of the yard/triple track area along the north wall. The other three walls are thoroughfares.

The south wall double tracks require signals for entry into the EW walls single tracks. Similarly, the north wall tracks require exit signals to head south on either side.

There need to be some sort of signals to manage the yard traffic.

I've been looking at the Viessmann stuff. Some possibilities there as long as compatibility isn't a factor.

Tomorrow I'll start prototyping the shelves and how they'll attach to the wall. There'll be no visible brackets, so I'm experimenting with two inch angle aluminum imbedded in plywood and screwed to the wall above the shelf. All with troughs for cove lighting, layout wiring, and camera feeds.

Once again, all your advice and input is much appreciated.

JB
310-266-6978 if you feel like chatting. I'm in California.