764xx and 763xx signals - Combining old and new digital signals Share  Email this topic  LinkBack Topic URL  Retweet this Topic  Share Topic on Google+  Like this Topic  Share on Facebook  Digg this Topic  Reddit this Topic  Share on Tumblr Options  Watch this topic  Print this topic View » Normal Threaded

Previous Topic Next Topic

Karl Audenaerde		#1 Posted : 29 September 2017 15:55:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 30 Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH		I'm trying to use the new 76494 with the 76383 distant signal, and that doesn't seem to work at all: the distant signal doesn't even light up. Does anybody have any experience with combining the old 763xx with the new 764xx series? Or controlling 763xx signals from a CS2?
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

	Wish to join the discussion?! Login to your marklin-users.net community | Forum accountor Register a new forum account. Or Connect via Facebook

MaerklinLife		#2 Posted : 29 September 2017 19:44:06(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC) Posts: 490		Please provide some details to how you have connected the setup. It may be just a simple mistake somewhere.
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Tex		#3 Posted : 29 September 2017 21:15:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 276 Location: Houston, Texas		Originally Posted by: Karl Audenaerde I'm trying to use the new 76494 with the 76383 distant signal, and that doesn't seem to work at all: the distant signal doesn't even light up. Does anybody have any experience with combining the old 763xx with the new 764xx series? Or controlling 763xx signals from a CS2? I operate twelve 763xx signals with a 6040 keyboard and plan to fill two empty slots with the new 764xx signals . That being said, I would not expect a 763xx distance signal to work with a 764xx signal. The 763xx distance signal is only a LED that is controlled by the signal to which it is attached. Tex Edited by user 30 September 2017 05:22:59(UTC)  | Reason: additional information giving reason for statement
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Goofy		#4 Posted : 30 September 2017 16:19:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,013		Originally Posted by: Karl Audenaerde I'm trying to use the new 76494 with the 76383 distant signal, and that doesn't seem to work at all: the distant signal doesn't even light up. Does anybody have any experience with combining the old 763xx with the new 764xx series? Or controlling 763xx signals from a CS2? If i think right you cannot mix new and old digital signals since they have both difference digital code. It or else present digital interference. You must have new distance signal for the new main signal 764xx.
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Purellum		#5 Posted : 30 September 2017 18:30:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,501 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse		Originally Posted by: Goofy If i think right you cannot mix new and old digital signals since they have both difference digital code. Goofy, please read Tex's comment, he is right, there is no decoder in, and thus no "different digital code" for the 76383. "The 763xx distance signal is only a LED that is controlled by the signal to which it is attached." Per.
		If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.
1 user liked this useful post by Purellum		Tex
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Goofy		#6 Posted : 01 October 2017 08:47:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,013		Originally Posted by: Purellum Originally Posted by: Goofy If i think right you cannot mix new and old digital signals since they have both difference digital code. Goofy, please read Tex's comment, he is right, there is no decoder in, and thus no "different digital code" for the 76383. "The 763xx distance signal is only a LED that is controlled by the signal to which it is attached." Per. Okey Did Karl connect correct distance signal to the head signal? Does the distance signal do have correct plug in that fits for the new digital signals decoder? Did Karl not switched by mistake?
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

klarinettmeister		#7 Posted : 01 October 2017 22:52:28(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 13/02/2008(UTC) Posts: 798 Location: Kirseberg		I´ve been looking on the Märklin webpage and I don´t think the 764XX and 763XX signals will work together. If you look on the page with 76383 it says compatible signals: 76391, 76393 and 76394. In the instruction booklet for the distant signal 76480 only the new 764XX are mentioned. "This signal is designed for installation on H0 digital model railroad layouts in conjunction with the 76491, 76493, 76494, 76495, 76496, and 76497 signals." I don´t have any 76383 so I can´t tell what the instruction booklet says. It´s not only LEDs in the distant signal there´s electronics inside also. But I think Märklin should write something that they aren´t compatible in a way so that everyone can understand.
		37624 F7, my first review My layout in construction. /David
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Tex		#8 Posted : 02 October 2017 06:17:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 276 Location: Houston, Texas		Originally Posted by: klarinettmeister I´ve been looking on the Märklin webpage and I don´t think the 764XX and 763XX signals will work together. If you look on the page with 76383 it says compatible signals: 76391, 76393 and 76394. In the instruction booklet for the distant signal 76480 only the new 764XX are mentioned. "This signal is designed for installation on H0 digital model railroad layouts in conjunction with the 76491, 76493, 76494, 76495, 76496, and 76497 signals." I don´t have any 76383 so I can´t tell what the instruction booklet says. It´s not only LEDs in the distant signal there´s electronics inside also. But I think Märklin should write something that they aren´t compatible in a way so that everyone can understand. The 03402 signal book states " if a free standing 76383 distant signal is connected to a home signal , no separate address setting is required for this signal . This signal is controlled by the ( home ) signal electronic circuit under the track and therefor does not need to have an address set for it. " Tex ( Richard Setterlund )
1 user liked this useful post by Tex		Minok
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Goofy		#9 Posted : 02 October 2017 09:26:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,013		Originally Posted by: Tex Originally Posted by: klarinettmeister I´ve been looking on the Märklin webpage and I don´t think the 764XX and 763XX signals will work together. If you look on the page with 76383 it says compatible signals: 76391, 76393 and 76394. In the instruction booklet for the distant signal 76480 only the new 764XX are mentioned. "This signal is designed for installation on H0 digital model railroad layouts in conjunction with the 76491, 76493, 76494, 76495, 76496, and 76497 signals." I don´t have any 76383 so I can´t tell what the instruction booklet says. It´s not only LEDs in the distant signal there´s electronics inside also. But I think Märklin should write something that they aren´t compatible in a way so that everyone can understand. The 03402 signal book states " if a free standing 76383 distant signal is connected to a home signal , no separate address setting is required for this signal . This signal is controlled by the ( home ) signal electronic circuit under the track and therefor does not need to have an address set for it. " Tex ( Richard Setterlund ) Are you sure about that Tex? Then in case why did Märklin start produce new distant signal 76480?
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Purellum		#10 Posted : 02 October 2017 13:16:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,501 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse		Originally Posted by: Goofy Are you sure about that Tex? It says more or less the same thing on Märklin's home page: "Model: The signal has an integrated electronic signal circuit. It can be connected to the separate signal decoder of the home signal to which it is assigned. It can be used for all home signals. All of its functions can be controlled from the signal decoder for the home signal. For digital operation the signal decoder for the home signal assigns the configuration and the address. Height without base 61.0 mm / 2-3/8"." Per.
		If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

supermoee		#11 Posted : 02 October 2017 13:55:45(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2007(UTC) Posts: 534		hello, 764xx and 763xx signals are not compatible together. So no way to connect a 764xx distance signal to a 763xx signal One big difference is, that the poles on the connector are inverted between the two generations. I do not know if is only the matter of the inverting of the poles or if there are other differeneces. For sure I will not try and risk to destroy the signals. rgds Stephan
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Goofy		#12 Posted : 02 October 2017 18:28:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,013		Originally Posted by: Purellum Originally Posted by: Goofy Are you sure about that Tex? Per. You did missed my second question. Why did Märklin produce new distance signal 76480 for the new head signal 7649x?
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Purellum		#13 Posted : 02 October 2017 19:08:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,501 Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse		Originally Posted by: Goofy You did missed my second question. Why did Märklin produce new distance signal 76480 for the new head signal 7649x? No, I didn't miss your question; but I think you should ask Märklin instead of me. I prefer to only answer questions when I know the answer. Per.
		If you can dream it, you can do it! I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible: I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Minok		#14 Posted : 02 October 2017 22:36:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,311 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest		Originally Posted by: supermoee hello, 764xx and 763xx signals are not compatible together. So no way to connect a 764xx distance signal to a 763xx signal One big difference is, that the poles on the connector are inverted between the two generations. I do not know if is only the matter of the inverting of the poles or if there are other differeneces. For sure I will not try and risk to destroy the signals. rgds Stephan This technology isn't rocket science; I don't see why there would be an engineering reason for not getting things to work. If the home signal decoder/controller is controlling the distance signal display, the unless Märklin changed the protocol of the data/electrical signal between home signal and distance signal, why would it not work? If Märklin did change the protocol/data between home and distance signal, the question is, why did they do that?
		Toys of tin and wood rule! --- My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4 My YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/@intercity134
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

supermoee		#15 Posted : 03 October 2017 14:57:51(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2007(UTC) Posts: 534		I guess Märklin changed a lot of things. for example on the 76397 signal you could assign the adress you wanted to the integrated distance signal. On the 76497 the adress of the distance signal is fix the next adress of the principal signal and you can't change it. On the 763xx signal you had to program the adress with the particular programm procedure with the program socket. On the 764xx signals you assign the adress by switches or by mfx programming and the connector is inverted. So I guess it is a complet new tecnology inside. rgds Stephan
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

petestra		#16 Posted : 03 October 2017 17:05:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 5,824 Location: Leesburg,VA.USA		I'm sure we all have our little likes and dislikes but for me the biggest thing I absolutely hate about the 764** signals is that they do not have the ability to work with contact track sections in the old analog way. One has to be a computer programmer to figure out an "EVENT". The best event for me is operating most of my signals that way. I have 5 of the new generation signals but I only use them in areas where there is no block control. Peter
		Facebook
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

clapcott		#17 Posted : 04 October 2017 01:59:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,433 Location: Wellington, New_Zealand		Originally Posted by: supermoee On the 76497 the address of the distance signal is fix the next address of the principal signal and you can't change it. Oh you can assign a unique address all right. a) It is just only usable in DCC mode This is mentioned in the manual. b) This is a mfx "auto registering" device and the controller (CS2 in particular) is just not ready to support this sort of variety. morel : Don't use CS2s auto mfx registration as it currently stands.
		Peter
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

clapcott		#18 Posted : 04 October 2017 02:28:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,433 Location: Wellington, New_Zealand		Originally Posted by: Minok If Märklin did change the protocol/data between home and distance signal, the question is, why did they do that? One possible reason might be because the earlier one was on/off for aspect selection while the later has characteristics like Brightness, SwitchingDuration, Crossfade Its called technological progress. If you really meant to ask why they didn't make it backward compatible, then I suspect marketing would have failed to see the benefit over the cost.
		Peter
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Karl Audenaerde		#19 Posted : 06 October 2017 15:35:46(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 30 Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH		Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Please provide some details to how you have connected the setup. It may be just a simple mistake somewhere. I tried in vain to attach a picture. But I have the two purple/white wires next to each other.
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Karl Audenaerde		#20 Posted : 06 October 2017 15:41:11(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 30 Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH		Originally Posted by: supermoee hello, 764xx and 763xx signals are not compatible together. So no way to connect a 764xx distance signal to a 763xx signal One big difference is, that the poles on the connector are inverted between the two generations. I do not know if is only the matter of the inverting of the poles or if there are other differeneces. For sure I will not try and risk to destroy the signals. rgds I figured that things don't work anyway, so I cut the purple/white wires of the distant signal and inverted them, purple to white and vice-versa. Made no difference: the distant signal does not light up. Now I have to find my old 76394 and see if I killed the distant signal... I think I'm giving up... Edited by moderator 06 October 2017 22:48:47(UTC)  | Reason: Added missig [quote]
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Goofy		#21 Posted : 06 October 2017 17:58:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,013		I´m pretty sure that distant signal 76383 is not designed to work with the signals 7649x. Here i show manual from the distant signal 76480 and it stand it works only with the new digital signals 7649x. So it makes point to avoid mix with the old and the new digital signals.
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
2 users liked this useful post by Goofy		RayF, Minok
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Minok		#22 Posted : 06 October 2017 21:19:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,311 Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest		Originally Posted by: clapcott Originally Posted by: Minok If Märklin did change the protocol/data between home and distance signal, the question is, why did they do that? One possible reason might be because the earlier one was on/off for aspect selection while the later has characteristics like Brightness, SwitchingDuration, Crossfade Its called technological progress. If you really meant to ask why they didn't make it backward compatible, then I suspect marketing would have failed to see the benefit over the cost. Yeah, I suppose its a matter of what was being transmitted. My view of how it would happen is this: the only thing that has to be communicated from the home signal to the distance signal is the state of the home signal (go, slow, stop) and the distance signal then displays that same info (if applicable). Its up to the distance signal to do its transitions from one state to the other (fade, timing, etc) which can be programmed into the distance signal by configuration. The distance signal then detects that the state went from green to red at the home signal, and it does what it needs to change from its green to its red ahead state. My thought was, why would it need to do more than communicate what the home state is over the wiring between home and distance signal? Presumably that wasn't the approach Märklin used.
		Toys of tin and wood rule! --- My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4 My YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/@intercity134
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Joan Ferrer		#23 Posted : 07 October 2017 13:34:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 07/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 8 Location: Catalonia, Pineda de Mar		The advanced signals 76383 like the 76480 do not need to be programmed to give them a digital address, but if they have inside it an electronic that depending on the digital pulses that receives the four LEDs in the signal can be combined as Vr0- Vr1 and Vr2. The 763xx series its hardware is outdated unlike the new 764xx series that its hardware is of the last generation and surely its way of working is totally different from the previous series. Because of this, it is not possible to connect the advanced 76383 signal to a 764xx series signal. Greetings to all
1 user liked this useful post by Joan Ferrer		RayF
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Karl Audenaerde		#24 Posted : 08 October 2017 18:46:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 30 Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH		Originally Posted by: Karl Audenaerde Originally Posted by: supermoee hello, 764xx and 763xx signals are not compatible together. So no way to connect a 764xx distance signal to a 763xx signal One big difference is, that the poles on the connector are inverted between the two generations. I do not know if is only the matter of the inverting of the poles or if there are other differeneces. For sure I will not try and risk to destroy the signals. rgds I figured that things don't work anyway, so I cut the purple/white wires of the distant signal and inverted them, purple to white and vice-versa. Made no difference: the distant signal does not light up. Now I have to find my old 76394 and see if I killed the distant signal... I think I'm giving up... I checked, and the distant signal survived the reversal. NOW THE SERIOUS QUESTION: does anybody know how to control 763xx signals from a CS2?
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Goofy		#25 Posted : 21 October 2017 07:08:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,013		Originally Posted by: Karl Audenaerde I checked, and the distant signal survived the reversal. NOW THE SERIOUS QUESTION: does anybody know how to control 763xx signals from a CS2? Do you have manual of the CS2? Do you have manual of the main signals 763xx? Good...read it and study how to do it. If you don´t have it...visit Märklins homepage and download manual.
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Karl Audenaerde		#26 Posted : 21 October 2017 23:26:28(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 30 Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH		Well, I can read, and on a good day also write. That's not the problem... The problem is that, when I hook a 763xx up to a CS2, the following happens: If I switch to red (or red/white/white), that's what I get. If I ask for green, I get green/yellow and vice versa. And during the transition the signal goes through all the intermediate stages before finishing in the state I asked for - or something else. So the question really is: does anybody know how to work around this problem?
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

clapcott		#27 Posted : 22 October 2017 02:53:11(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,433 Location: Wellington, New_Zealand		Exactly which CS2 icon are you using? For these signals the "professional" (Profi or Scale) variant of the relative signal type (3/4 aspect) should be used. The wording may depend on your version of CS2 firmware. Reference top left of pg8. http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/76391_betrieb.pdf
		Peter
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Karl Audenaerde		#28 Posted : 22 October 2017 18:33:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 30 Location: MASSACHUSETTS, FALMOUTH		Pg 8 describes exactly what I did. It doesn't work... The Marklin Dudes think there is a programming error in the CS2...
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Br01		#29 Posted : 02 January 2018 23:00:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 32		Originally Posted by: supermoee I guess Märklin changed a lot of things. for example on the 76397 signal you could assign the adress you wanted to the integrated distance signal. On the 76497 the adress of the distance signal is fix the next adress of the principal signal and you can't change it. Hi, does this means that on the 76495/6/7 you can actually control the distant signal aspects in cs2/3 by configuring a separate distant signal with this 2nd address rather that assign the cv value of the next signal? Or the distant signal only works when paired with a next signal with no possibility of independent aspects? I’m asking this because this is something that I would like to do in the entry signals 76497 before the main station, which as several tracks and thus the distant signal on these entry signal before the station need to be dinamically linked (via a program in rocrail on pc - see link below) to the exit signal on the selected track (and not a fixed signal fixed as mentioned in the documentation). I came across this very detailed post detailing this implementation with the viessmann signals (they have two separate addresses, for main and distant signals) but I rather use marklin signals if possible because I already have some. There, the author mentions that it may not be possible to configure this with marklin because you should set via cv a fixed address for the next signal. https://www.marklin-user...-managed-advanced-signal Regards John
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

clapcott		#30 Posted : 03 January 2018 01:48:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,433 Location: Wellington, New_Zealand		Originally Posted by: Br01 does this means that on the 76495/6/7 you can actually control the distant signal aspects in cs2/3 by configuring a separate distant signal with this 2nd address rather that assign the cv value of the next signal? Or the distant signal only works when paired with a next signal with no possibility of independent aspects? As per post #17 above. YES you may assign a discrete address to the Distant signal head of 764xx signals - Use CVs 55&56 However, Marklin have chosen to only allow this when running the signal in DCC mode. This is not an issue with a CS2/CS3. If you will have both MM and DCC accessories, your choice of software needs to support this (rather than assume ALL one or the other)
		Peter
1 user liked this useful post by clapcott		Br01
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Br01		#31 Posted : 03 January 2018 20:56:11(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 32		Originally Posted by: clapcott As per post #17 above. YES you may assign a discrete address to the Distant signal head of 764xx signals - Use CVs 55&56 However, Marklin have chosen to only allow this when running the signal in DCC mode. This is not an issue with a CS2/CS3. If you will have both MM and DCC accessories, your choice of software needs to support this (rather than assume ALL one or the other) Hi Thank you for your answer. It was not clear to me that this 2nd address could be use to control the distant signal independently. I’ll buy one soon and give feedback on the mentioned “dynamic distant signal” rocrail implementation with marklin. Regards John
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

clapcott		#32 Posted : 04 January 2018 00:11:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,433 Location: Wellington, New_Zealand		Originally Posted by: Br01 It was not clear to me that this 2nd address could be use to control the distant signal independently. Depending on the context, the term "2nd address" may be read to mean subtly different things In the context of the 76495/6/7 it may be considered that there is an address for the Home masthead and another (2nd) address for the Distant masthead. Drilling down, however, if either of the mastheads is to show 3 or 4 aspects, then there is a need for a 2nd address (pair of addresses) per masthead. As an example, using the 76496 out of the box and setting the DIP switches, this becomes the Base address and the decoder will (by default) occupy the next 3 consecutive addresses as well - The first pair (2 addresses = Base address and Base+1) allow the 4 aspects of the Home masthead to be set. - The 2nd pair (3rd (Base+2) and 4th (Base+3) ) allow for the 3 VR aspects of the distant masthead. Setting DIP switch 10 "On" (= DCC mode) and altering CVs 55&56 (you only need 55 unless you are wanting an address above 511) allows you to redefine the Base address of the 2nd pair of addresses.
		Peter
1 user liked this useful post by clapcott		Br01
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Br01		#33 Posted : 04 January 2018 00:24:34(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/04/2012(UTC) Posts: 32		Hi, Thank you again for this additional clarification! I’ll give it a try soon! Regards, John
User Profile View All Posts by User View Thanks

Users browsing this topic

Guest