Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Robert Davies  
#1 Posted : 24 September 2017 02:51:32(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
My c-sine E10 39110 has been running more slowly of late and I wondered if a CV value had got changed inadvertently, so I did a reset for the loco on my CS2 (60214). The effect was that the loco lost all power, lights, functions and now won't register on either my normal track or on a programming track. I also ran the 'Discover Mfx locos' option on the CS2 with no effect.

Here are some more bits of information -
I also have a 60215 on which the loco has never been registered but that can't find it either
I swapped the decoder board for one from my 39140 and the loco then works fine so it is not the loco wiring or motherboard that is at fault

Because this is a c-sine motor I cannot just buy any old replacement decoder - it needs to be c-sine compatible which I think reduces my options.

The non-registering decoder looks OK, with no obvious signs of overheating and there was no smoke or smell when I did the reset.

Any suggestions as to how I can proceed?

All help gratefully received as usual.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
Offline river6109  
#2 Posted : 24 September 2017 05:36:57(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Robert, it doesn't look like a loose wire because of the driving characteristics you've described.,
I had 3 sound decoders (from a client) apparently just went dead.

the only one I can think of is an ESU decoder which has settings for different type of motors.

regards.,

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by river6109
Offline kiwiAlan  
#3 Posted : 24 September 2017 18:13:06(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Robert, it doesn't look like a loose wire because of the driving characteristics you've described.,
I had 3 sound decoders (from a client) apparently just went dead.

the only one I can think of is an ESU decoder which has settings for different type of motors.

regards.,

John


The ESU V4 decoders certainly have the option for retrofitting to Marklin locos with C-Sine motors. Check out the instruction manual on the ESU web site.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline Robert Davies  
#4 Posted : 05 October 2017 15:11:23(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Following the advice given, I obtained an ESU LokPilot 4 21MTC decoder and now the fun has started. This is my first serious go with a LokPilot 4 decoder and advice and assistance is desperately needed!!

1. The decoder was not recognised in the way an Mfx decoder would be recognised (although the ESU documentation suggested it might be) but I suppose this is not surprising.

2. I tried to register the loco using the 'Add a loco - Manual' function on my CS2. It wouldn't recognise under DCC but did under MM Programmable. The decoder comes with a default address of 3 which the CS2 found (but which is already allocated to another loco) so after a lot of fiddling (and I still don't actually know what I did) I managed to change this to 10. The loco moves and some functions work but see 3 below.

3. I now need to reallocate the function buttons to match what the loco is capable of and this is where I have run into a brick wall. This is how it currently is:
F0 turns the front/rear lights on/off
F1 turns the motor blower sounds on/off
F2 controls the whistle
F3 and above do nothing

This is how it was on the old Marklin Mfx decoder and what I want:
F0 Front/rear lights on/off
F1 Nothing
F2 motor blower
F3 whistle
F6,F8 Double A lights
Everything else Nothing (for the moment at least)

Under MM programmable a limited number of CV settings are accessible and these are currently set as follows:
CV1 = 1
CV2 = 2
CV3 = 3
CV4 = 4
CV5 = 5
CV6 = 6
CV31 = 16
CV32 = 2

This doesn't look right but it is what the Central Station says. I added the last 2 myself because the ESU instructions talk about using certain CV values (CV31=16,CV32=2,CV266,282,298,314=32) to obtain compatibility with C-Sinus motors (which the loco has). However under MM Programmable the highest CV the CS2 will accept is 79 so setting up CV266,282,298 and 314 is impossible.

It is clear that the ESU programming instructions are geared around using DCC but as I said earlier the decoder is not recognised under DCC protocol. The motherboard in the loco must be responsible for that so how do I go about changing the characteristics of the decoder so that I can replicate the old Function Button settings. I don't know what the current CV values mean - they don't match anything in the ESU manual - so if anyone has experience in using these decoders and has knowledge to share, I would be deeply appreciative.

Thanks, as always, in anticipation.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 05 October 2017 16:14:32(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post
Following the advice given, I obtained an ESU LokPilot 4 21MTC decoder and now the fun has started.
Indeed.
Only ESU decoders marked "M4" support mfx, so you probably bought a decoder without mfx.
It is not uncommon that the driver board connected between decoder and motor prevents DCC programming.

One option: put the decoder into a non-CSine loco, make all changes under DCC, set the DCC address you want, and finally put the decoder into the 39110 and off you go.

Maybe someone with a 39110 can tell you what AUX1 through AUX4 do with their loco, so you can program the new decoder to use the same function keys as the old one.

It could be that F6 and F8 use AUX1 and AUX2, but it might be AUX3 or AUX4 as well. The other two will be used for the sound functions.
You should be able to get all functions using F1, F2, F5, and F6 once you switched to DCC.

BTW: The CV values shown by the CS2 mean nothing. The CS2 cannot read CVs using MM. And note that it only reads CVs under DCC when you press the Read button for a specific CV, so they also mean nothing when you enter this page for a DCC loco.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline Robert Davies  
#6 Posted : 05 October 2017 20:29:37(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post
Following the advice given, I obtained an ESU LokPilot 4 21MTC decoder and now the fun has started.
Indeed.
One option: put the decoder into a non-CSine loco, make all changes under DCC, set the DCC address you want, and finally put the decoder into the 39110 and off you go.


Thanks for your advice. I had thought of doing this but I think that unfortunately the only locos I have with 21MTC connectors are all Mfx so I don't think it is going to help. However I will check.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
Offline Minok  
#7 Posted : 05 October 2017 21:19:41(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

It is not uncommon that the driver board connected between decoder and motor prevents DCC programming.

One option: put the decoder into a non-CSine loco, make all changes under DCC, set the DCC address you want, and finally put the decoder into the 39110 and off you go.


I don't know about the intricacies of c-sine programming, but would it be possible to just connect the programming track outputs from the CS directly to the corresponding ground and track power inputs on the decoder, with no locomotive attached, and program it that way? Or does the programming of the loco decoder require that a motor etc be hooked up? Sure you cannot test the settings until you put it back in the loco, but I'd think you could program it at least, just by direct connection as its really the data signal connection thats needed.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 05 October 2017 22:25:40(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post
I had thought of doing this but I think that unfortunately the only locos I have with 21MTC connectors are all Mfx so I don't think it is going to help.
The problem is not mfx, the problem is the CSine motor. Pick a loco with mfx or fx, but without CSine motor.

Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Or does the programming of the loco decoder require that a motor etc be hooked up?
ESU loco decoders need a motor or some load on the motor output for DCC programming (not for Programming on Main, but that makes things complicated).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Robert Davies  
#9 Posted : 05 October 2017 23:16:37(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post
I had thought of doing this but I think that unfortunately the only locos I have with 21MTC connectors are all Mfx so I don't think it is going to help.
The problem is not mfx, the problem is the CSine motor. Pick a loco with mfx or fx, but without CSine motor.


Ah! Thanks, Tom. I misunderstood - I will see if I can find one. I have a 37819 (Br50) which from the parts list looks as if it has a 21MTC connector. It is Mfx and has a can motor but since is not numbered 39xxx I guess it is not C-Sinus. I also have an E50 from set 29500 which is Mfx but I don't think that is C-sine either.

One thing I should have mentioned is that I have an almost identical 39140 which is working fine so I had hoped to read all the CV's from that. However all that comes up on the CS2 is Mfx with no CV table. Is this also because the C-sine motherboard is getting in the way? Is there a way of getting the CV values from a custom Mfx decoder?

I am going away for a few days now so I will have a go on my return. Don't think I have given up if you hear nothing.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 06 October 2017 08:21:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Robert,
You cannot transfer CVs from Märklin decoders to ESU decoders or vice versa. You cannot even transfer CVs from old ESU decoders to new ESU decoders.

The main thing: For the c-sine motor you have to disable load regulation in the decoder. For some locos AUX4 must be activated all the time, but since your loco has 4 extra functions I assume that AUX1 through AUX4 are not required for the motor.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Robert Davies  
#11 Posted : 06 October 2017 12:49:17(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Robert,
You cannot transfer CVs from Märklin decoders to ESU decoders or vice versa. You cannot even transfer CVs from old ESU decoders to new ESU decoders.

The main thing: For the c-sine motor you have to disable load regulation in the decoder. For some locos AUX4 must be activated all the time, but since your loco has 4 extra functions I assume that AUX1 through AUX4 are not required for the motor.


Thanks again Tom.

I didn't mean that I wanted to physically transfer the settings. I just want to see what they are so I can set up the new decoder to match them.

I had spotted the need to turn off load regulation but until I can reliably get at the CV's, I can't do that. I mentioned that I had added a couple of CV's to the CS2 screen (31 and 32). Do you think that I have actually been able to write these to the decoder using MM Programmable protocol or is it just that the CS2 thinks that they are set up but nothing has in fact happened? Load control is CV56 which must exist even though the CS2 can't see it. If I have been able to write CV's 31 and 32 successfully, maybe I can try CV56. However I think on balance I will leave it until I can access the decoder under DCC and that will have to wait until I return from my holiday.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
Offline Robert Davies  
#12 Posted : 12 October 2017 21:58:30(UTC)
Robert Davies

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: Worcestershire, UK
To continue this saga.

I have established that my 37819 does have a 21MTC connector so I have put my ESU LokPilot v4 into it and I can make full contact with it under DCC. Tom's advice was spot on.

However he was also right when he said that it is not self-evident how to map the decoder outputs AUX1 - AUX4 on to the function keys so can anybody tell me how decoder outputs AUX1 - AUX4 are used on this loco?

TIA.
Robert
Era III - IV
2 x Central Station 2 v.2 (60214 + 60215)
Hardware versions 3.6 / 4.33
Software version 4.2.1 (0)
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 13 October 2017 08:37:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Robert Davies Go to Quoted Post
However he was also right when he said that it is not self-evident how to map the decoder outputs AUX1 - AUX4 on to the function keys so can anybody tell me how decoder outputs AUX1 - AUX4 are used on this loco?
By default they should be F1, F2, F5, and F6.
The simple solution: find out, what the function keys do and assign appropriate symbols.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by H0
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.492 seconds.