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Offline Michael4  
#1 Posted : 20 August 2017 14:48:30(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 642
Location: England, South Coast
I don't really know what I am talking about but as I understand it a 'triac' is employed in certain light dimmers to allow the current to come on gradually, ie the lights to 'brighten up' to a preset level by themselves.

My locomotives can be controlled by signals and in turn control, via track control sections, other locomotives. The problem is that the locomotives are on/off and there is no accelerating or slowing stage.

By having two trains running at the same time (effectively overlapping after tripping each other) I can make starting and stopping a little more gradual but it is not controllable in any way.

All the locos are old with what I think you would describe as three pole, flat commutator AC motors.

So...would the installation of a 'triac' allow for gradual acceleration/slowing or slowing or am I barking up the wrong tree?

OK so this is hardly 'analogue' in spirit but it might be fun...

Offline EMD_GP7  
#2 Posted : 21 August 2017 15:04:46(UTC)
EMD_GP7


Joined: 23/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 192
Location: U.K. Midlands
Hi Michael.
A Triac is a device which conducts current only when an input called the "Gate" is triggered by an external source.
Triacs conduct on both polarities of the AC waveform whereas Thyristors only conduct on one half of the cycle.
The device can be used to control the time during the AC cycle that the current starts to flow so the longer the trigger is "ON" then the current is passed for a longer part of the cycle and the lamp is brighter, when the trigger time is delayed then less current over cycle time can flow and the lamp is dimmed.
The gate is controlled in dimmers by a variable resistor feeding a capacitor so that the rise time depends on the position of the variable resistor and hence resistance. The resistor/capacitor circuit is started by the start of the AC cycle crossing zero voltage.
A device called a "Diac" is used to set a minimum voltage at which the gate is triggered and therefore the Triac can be set to trigger during the cycle at a time depending on the resistor position.
If you wanted to use a Triac to gradually increase current from a standing start you would need some way of reproducing the variable resistor so that it gradually reduced it's resistance and therefore increased the current time to the loco !
This site may explain better than I can and may give some clues as to how it can be done,

http://www.electronics-t...ials.ws/power/triac.html

Hope this helps. Colin
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by EMD_GP7
Offline Michael4  
#3 Posted : 21 August 2017 16:46:40(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 642
Location: England, South Coast
Colin thanks, It requires more understanding on my behalf, maybe more than I can muster but I now at least understand a bit more

All the best

Michael

Offline mikemasey  
#4 Posted : 25 September 2017 12:24:53(UTC)
mikemasey

Australia   
Joined: 03/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 83
Hi Michael,

I also run analogue and have an auto stop-start section on my layout.

I also have a short shuttle run where I employ a Marklen 6600 trafo that allows the older pure analogue loco's to stop and change direction with a

delayed stop and star all on its own(amazing I know, who needs DCC!).

I assume that for a stop/start of at least two engines you would need two 6600's?

I only have one so also have the quick stop/start when running on auto problems!

There is an interesting manual that comes with the 6600, you should be able to find it somewhere on the web or maybe even this site.

Keep up the analogue and M track work.

Mike.
Offline Michael4  
#5 Posted : 25 September 2017 14:20:38(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 642
Location: England, South Coast
Mike,

I didn't know about 6600 and 6699(?) I quick look on the internet and I am intrigued. Will need to find out more!

Thanks for the tip.

Michael
Offline hxmiesa  
#6 Posted : 26 September 2017 15:28:04(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,520
Location: Spain
The 66-series of controllers are not good for digital equipment, as they work with 200Hz pulse width modulation.

I use anti-parallel diodes in series. Each pair drops the voltage by around 0,7 Volts.
So to achieve the "smooth" braking in front of a signal, I isolate the center-studs; First 3 track-lengths, then 2, then 1 and finally a half (9cm) track-length (thats already more than 100cm). Gradually feeding the power through more and more pairs of diodes.
The last half-length of track is fed with just enough power to make even the slowest locomotive move along. -As some of the locomotive are more efficient than others, each loco has 0,1 or 2 pairs of anti-paralllel diodes internally, so as to make all of them more or less equal.

It might sound complicated or as a lot of work, but it acutally works out fine! The 4 stages of speed does fully give the illusion of a train slwoing down. The movement inertia of the heavy-metal Märklin locos smoothens out the voltage steps. But yes; a lot of cutting, and SOME wiring.

A 4-pole relay bypasses the speed-steps and feed normal power to all sections, when the signal is already green when the block is entered by the train.
Additionally, there is a 3-stages ramp-up sections of different track-voltage AFTER the signal, so that the train also starts smoothly.





Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by hxmiesa
Offline mikemasey  
#7 Posted : 02 October 2017 09:18:47(UTC)
mikemasey

Australia   
Joined: 03/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 83
Hi Michael,

Wet day here in Oz so a perfect railway day!

Further info on the two 6600's that I use.

Both run separately with their own power coming from separate transformers so there is no earthing or phase problem.

The 6600 that I use on the stop/go section doesn't in fact work when you rotate the control fully anti-clockwise but the second one does as per the Marklin fashion.

Due to the position of the switching track 5146/7, there is a short period when the transformer is trying to power two loco's at the same time(more by luck than design!)so there is a sort of slow start and stop.

It is also important to remember not to have the loco pulling any wagon or coaches that have been fitted with a pickup shoe for lights etc as this will, of course, activate the stop/start process.

Using the contact rail section's 5115 or 5116 (there are several different contact track sections available) I think will fix this. I haven't tried as I have used my contact sections for my 7192 road rail crossing gate to extend the open and close time.

One of my favorite features of the 6600's are the two knobs that will set the start and brake retard time if they are set fully clockwise and the buttons 4 and 5 are set to green you get a more constant running speed. This means that for the older loco's you do not have to have them barrelling along to make it up any inclines. I'm sure this is to do with the current sensing devices in the electronic circuitry.

If you find one it is important to make sure that the unit will manually change the direction of you loco, as I have one that doesn't I use a 6699 for slow running speed and to change direction. Yes, it was a wiring nightmare but I managed to achieve it.

Hope all this helps.

regards,

Mike.

Offline Michael4  
#8 Posted : 02 October 2017 14:30:20(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 642
Location: England, South Coast
Thanks Mike, it will help when I get there.

Our son has promised to give me a crash course in PWM which we assume is the key to all this. He reckons he can build me something similar to 6600 which sounds like fun. I will report progress in due course but he is delayed by other things, one of which is trying to mount a servo onto our video train so that the camera can be controlled remotely and turn into the curve in advance of the train, thus avoiding the helter-skelter effect!

The digital boys really don't know what they are missing!
Offline hxmiesa  
#9 Posted : 03 October 2017 16:46:54(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,520
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Mike, it will help when I get there.
Our son has promised to give me a crash course in PWM which we assume is the key to all this. He reckons he can build me something similar to 6600 which sounds like fun. I will report progress in due course but he is delayed by other things, one of which is trying to mount a servo onto our video train so that the camera can be controlled remotely and turn into the curve in advance of the train, thus avoiding the helter-skelter effect!
The digital boys really don't know what they are missing!

You are so right! ;-)

The diagram for the 6600 electronics controller is on the internet! I think it should not be too complicated to reproduce for an electtroinics buff.
Liked hinted in my previous posting; Keep this stuff FAR away from any digital locomotive!
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline Michael4  
#10 Posted : 03 October 2017 17:30:40(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 642
Location: England, South Coast
Thanks, I've found it and sent it on to our son.

The only thing digital on my layout is the Raspberry pi wifi camera wagon. The rest is very basic.
Offline mikemasey  
#11 Posted : 06 October 2017 03:19:43(UTC)
mikemasey

Australia   
Joined: 03/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 83
G-Day Michael,
I know that you have found the circuit diagram already but if you look at the "6600, 6699" question just below your tri question on the site list you will find some info from 'Purellee' that will be helpful.

mike.
Offline Michael4  
#12 Posted : 06 October 2017 23:18:34(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 642
Location: England, South Coast
Mike,

Got it! Many thanks,

Michael
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