What can be the limit for a push and pull consist with an incredible steep ramp? the limit is clear Share  Email this topic  LinkBack Topic URL  Retweet this Topic  Share Topic on Google+  Like this Topic  Share on Facebook  Digg this Topic  Reddit this Topic  Share on Tumblr Options  Watch this topic  Print this topic View » Normal Threaded

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utkan		#1 Posted : 18 August 2017 16:10:37(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		The first trial is with 41 small container wagons...
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utkan		#2 Posted : 18 August 2017 16:12:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		The second goes with 44 containers...
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utkan		#3 Posted : 18 August 2017 16:13:40(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		The third is with 50 wagons...
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utkan		#4 Posted : 18 August 2017 16:15:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		The number is 55 now...
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utkan		#5 Posted : 18 August 2017 16:17:49(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Sixty was our ultimate limit... of course for the time being..
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Thewolf		#6 Posted : 18 August 2017 16:33:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,035 Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada		Hi Mehmet Very impressive What is the degree of inclination of the ramp ? Did you tried with only one loco in traction ? Thewolf
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utkan		#7 Posted : 21 August 2017 22:01:14(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Originally Posted by: Thewolf Hi Mehmet Very impressive What is the degree of inclination of the ramp ? Did you tried with only one loco in traction ? Thewolf Hi Thewolf, So sorry for the late response but I was away from marklinistanbul for the weekend. I can not tell you the exact degree of the inclination..the ramp reaches its highest point in Chania bridge, which is 25cm, after a lenght of 415 cm. DB 44 has pulled 310 box cars alone on a straight track before. As you appriciate, on this steep and curved route you need a loco at the rear. Otherwise when the wagon number is more than 30, the wagons intend to fall over inside... Greetings from Istanbul
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Thewolf		#8 Posted : 21 August 2017 22:44:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/09/2015(UTC) Posts: 2,035 Location: Saint Mathias dur Richelieu-Canada		Originally Posted by: utkan Originally Posted by: Thewolf Hi Mehmet Very impressive What is the degree of inclination of the ramp ? Did you tried with only one loco in traction ? Thewolf Hi Thewolf, So sorry for the late response but I was away from marklinistanbul for the weekend. I can not tell you the exact degree of the inclination..the ramp reaches its highest point in Chania bridge, which is 25cm, after a lenght of 415 cm. DB 44 has pulled 310 box cars alone on a straight track before. As you appriciate, on this steep and curved route you need a loco at the rear. Otherwise when the wagon number is more than 30, the wagons intend to fall over inside... Greetings from Istanbul Hi Mehmet No problems Mehmet With the communicated information, I calculated that the ramp had a 6,05 % slope. I based myself on a formula found on Google Thewolf
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dominator		#9 Posted : 22 August 2017 00:32:42(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,195 Location: Kerikeri		That's a big effort Mehmet. Probably not so good for the engines though, but you have to try these things even just to prove how much better Marklin is than a lot of other stuff which is around. I attempted to get one of my[ 1950's ] BR23's to pull 9 of my metal 8 wheeler coaches up a 3% grade and it struggled [ well it slowed down a lot over the 1.8 meter length ] so i put 2 of those BR23's together. That was a lot better, but one of the locos kept loosing its tires. I glued them on in the end. . Later when i took the locos off the track, i noticed they had both worn their tires down considerably . I then saw why some of the guys on this forum preferred nothing more than 2% grades. I think the older engines like your class 44 can do it easier than the latest digital stuff coming from Marklin. Also the types of wagons you are using you can get away with it more than you could with the wagons with close couplers as I think they would pull apart. There is definitely something great and durable about those older Marklin products. All the best and good to see you in action again. Dereck
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river6109		#10 Posted : 22 August 2017 08:33:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,712 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		Dereck, your efforts are somewhat over the top. a.) to glue tyres onto the wheel is not recommended because any glue surface if not totally even could detract the traction effort. b.) another reason could be your 2 locos running at a different speed and more or less work against each other, c.) unless you've got both locos running at the speed, you should disengage the acceleration delay. d.) your locos are digital. earlier or later locos from Märklin shouldn't make that much difference its mainly the weight and the amount of rubber tyres each loco has got. your class 23 (older model should have more pulling power than your new model of the same loco (weight difference), there is the issue with couplings coming apart for all sort of reasons. different manufacturers produce different couplings and there aren't many who can hold long trains together., sokme of them uncouple on a straight others on curved tracks. I've had carriages up to 50 going up an incline with a weight of approx 20kg behind. (iron ore carriages) regards., John
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utkan		#11 Posted : 22 August 2017 09:37:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Originally Posted by: Thewolf Originally Posted by: utkan Originally Posted by: Thewolf Hi Mehmet Very impressive What is the degree of inclination of the ramp ? Did you tried with only one loco in traction ? Thewolf Hi Thewolf, So sorry for the late response but I was away from marklinistanbul for the weekend. I can not tell you the exact degree of the inclination..the ramp reaches its highest point in Chania bridge, which is 25cm, after a lenght of 415 cm. DB 44 has pulled 310 box cars alone on a straight track before. As you appriciate, on this steep and curved route you need a loco at the rear. Otherwise when the wagon number is more than 30, the wagons intend to fall over inside... Greetings from Istanbul Hi Mehmet No problems Mehmet With the communicated information, I calculated that the ramp had a 6,05 % slope. I based myself on a formula found on Google Thewolf I have always been very bad at Maths Thank for the calculation Thewolf
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utkan		#12 Posted : 22 August 2017 10:37:14(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Hi Dereck, You are so right by saying anything more than %2 slope is not good for the locos as many guys agreed. At first I was not planning to use any bridge lanes on my lay out. But when I saw that beautiful faller bridge, which is called Chania Bridge now. You see I do not have a very big room. So the result is 6,05 slope, as Thewolf has found out. About the main idea to see a pull and push consist with two analog locos. Sure they have different speeds and strenght. Each loco cannot pull 60 wagons seperately due to sharp curves and steep ramps but they can do it together. Thank you for your interest as well. Cheers mehmet
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Ian555		#13 Posted : 23 August 2017 20:19:57(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC) Posts: 20,240 Location: Scotland		Hi Mehmet, Good to see the trains running... All the best...Ian.
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dominator		#14 Posted : 24 August 2017 00:03:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,195 Location: Kerikeri		All the best Mehmet. keep up the good work. John, you are probably right, but as I mentioned to Mehmet, you gotta try these things. The 2 locos mentioned were both analogue, and I set the transformer speed so that both locos were going about the same speed. I presumed that when you put a load on a loco that it slows down a bit, so with 2 locos working together, their speed would equalize and share the load. I had these two locos running for several hours [ over many days ] pulling that load. The reason i glued the tires on with super glue was the tires were forever stretching and coming off that loco even when it ran by itself. I used to find out the tire had come of when it came to a halt when entering a bridge. Like throwing a lasso out. A pure power stop. Not good for the loco or the bridge, especially with a fully laden train. All the best. Dereck https://www.marklin-user...-analogue-digital-layout
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utkan		#15 Posted : 24 August 2017 07:23:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Originally Posted by: Ian555 Hi Mehmet, Good to see the trains running... All the best...Ian. Hi Ian, Greetings from Istanbul Cheers, mehmet
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utkan		#16 Posted : 24 August 2017 07:26:34(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Hi Dereck, I wonder if you have a vidoe of those two BR 23s working together while climbing up... Cheers, mehmet
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dominator		#17 Posted : 24 August 2017 11:28:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,195 Location: Kerikeri		Hi Mehmet, the close up of the BR23"s in the video is near the top of the incline, Unfortunately, my control panel is in the way of the video, but since I have shifted the whole setup away from the opposite wall, I should be able to thE video again. [ with Adrian's help I have to admit ]. The video was done by my son, who lives down in Wellington. I haven't progress hat far yet with being able to do that sort of photography and adding it to computers. One of my mates said he was a dinosaur when it comes to computers. I am more Jurassic. all the best. Dereck Ps . we are heading down to Wellington for a band reunion and we will be having dinner with Adrianne's sister., brother in law, and my 2 sons. [ Two different people mentioned here, my wife and Adrian in Brisbane] Hi Adrian.
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utkan		#18 Posted : 24 August 2017 13:05:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Hi Dereck, When talking about computers I have to admit that I belong to the Ice Age Please do not bother about the video Enjoy yourselves in Wellington Cheers, mehmet
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utkan		#19 Posted : 24 August 2017 15:23:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Originally Posted by: river6109 I've had carriages up to 50 going up an incline with a weight of approx 20kg behind. (iron ore carriages) John I wonder if we could have a chance of seeing this in a video
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utkan		#20 Posted : 07 September 2017 23:29:42(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Originally Posted by: utkan Originally Posted by: river6109 I've had carriages up to 50 going up an incline with a weight of approx 20kg behind. (iron ore carriages) John I wonder if we could have a chance of seeing this in a video Since we could not get a chance of seeing this 50 car train, I have tried something...the video will be here soon...
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river6109		#21 Posted : 08 September 2017 02:44:41(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,712 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		Originally Posted by: utkan Originally Posted by: utkan Originally Posted by: river6109 I've had carriages up to 50 going up an incline with a weight of approx 20kg behind. (iron ore carriages) John I wonder if we could have a chance of seeing this in a video Since we could not get a chance of seeing this 50 car train, I have tried something...the video will be here soon... sorry about the delay, here is a video but I couldn't find the one with 50 carriages with 25 loaded coal wagon and 2 BR 44's 3 BR 216
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utkan		#22 Posted : 08 September 2017 16:41:45(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Lovely horns, nice diesel and steam sounds... By the way I love the hand in the DB 44s film at 6:38... It is a pity you could not find 50 cars film... and please allow me to give you a piece of advice : be sure you have locos in both ends in case the wagons drop a connection, you know result is many and broken wagons... Cool try... Thanks for the films, John...
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utkan		#23 Posted : 08 September 2017 17:01:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		...last time we managed to pull and push 60 container cars(120 axles) with DB 44 and DB 50... ...now 2 MaKs and 29 hoppers(116 axles)are going up and down along the viaducts of Marklinistanbul...
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Goofy		#24 Posted : 09 September 2017 11:26:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,012		It´s all matter of the traction tyres. And of course strong motor and locomotive weights.
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utkan		#25 Posted : 09 September 2017 14:09:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Originally Posted by: Goofy It´s all matter of the traction tyres. And of course strong motor and locomotive weights. Surely it is a matter of all the things you mentioned above... But many of us do have much stronger and heaviyer locos than I have... Then I wonder why not nobody has done it in H0 so far?
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utkan		#26 Posted : 09 September 2017 16:58:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		....now a bit longer...
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utkan		#27 Posted : 09 September 2017 22:03:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		When the brand is M*.... And when you line up correct wagons and locos... Then you seem to have a problem... You cannot stop yourself...
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utkan		#28 Posted : 10 September 2017 15:51:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		...now we have 2 locos in the front and two locos in the back... ...and of course a few wagons in the middle...
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Johnvr		#29 Posted : 10 September 2017 17:14:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC) Posts: 1,269 Location: Cape Town, South Africa		Hi Mehmet, Great railway video - I like the clickety-click of the wagons on the M-Track ! Regards, John
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utkan		#30 Posted : 10 September 2017 20:32:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Originally Posted by: Johnvr Hi Mehmet, Great railway video - I like the clickety-click of the wagons on the M-Track ! Regards, John So do I, John
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dominator		#31 Posted : 11 September 2017 04:46:43(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,195 Location: Kerikeri		Its all about having fun. I see no. 14 is waiting on another track wanting to have a go as well Mehmet. That one of my favourite diesels. The right colour and the right square chunky shape. Dereck
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utkan		#32 Posted : 11 September 2017 08:36:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Originally Posted by: dominator Its all about having fun. I see no. 14 is waiting on another track wanting to have a go as well Mehmet. That one of my favourite diesels. The right colour and the right square chunky shape. Dereck Hi Dereck, Yes, it is all about fun I must admit that you have got very sharp eyes and can predict the next scenario You know what they say:"There is no petfect crime." Between you and me yours number 14 will give you a nice surprise Take care, mehmet
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mario54i		#33 Posted : 11 September 2017 10:24:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 283 Location: Torino,		only 37...but only one engine
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utkan		#34 Posted : 11 September 2017 12:33:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Hi Mario54i, Very nice work of yours. That beautiful loco, I have no doubt, must be ready to pull another 37 wagons.. Cheers, mehmet
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utkan		#35 Posted : 11 September 2017 13:15:45(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Two only pulling, two both pulling and pushing and one only pushing....
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dominator		#36 Posted : 12 September 2017 07:02:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,195 Location: Kerikeri		Mario, where did you get that pair of wagons with the Jacobs truck. Good one Mehmet. Did you have some trouble with the push pull scenario or did you go straight to it and put the two MAK's in the middle of the train. Just the engineer in me thinking physics here. All the best to you both Dereck
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utkan		#37 Posted : 12 September 2017 10:23:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Hi Dereck, I can tell you that while trying the whole but there have been a few problems; The first one is the ramp is too steep...6%... The second one the curves are very sharp...you must choose the correct places for the mid-locos. Otherwise the derailment is inevitable. The third one is the power of locos. Since I am running analog they may have different speeds that causing derailment as well... And the last one the hopper wagons are not very balanced. I mean they have a strong tendency of derailment along the curves... All the best to you and thanks for the interest as well... mehmet
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utkan		#38 Posted : 12 September 2017 11:44:46(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		When the mid-locos number is increased from two to three, the better performance you get... ...so we will be able to increase the number of the wagons a bit more...
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utkan		#39 Posted : 14 September 2017 12:49:25(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		Number of the wagons is 52 but approaching the end...
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utkan		#40 Posted : 14 September 2017 13:00:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 19,116 Location: Istanbul,		The limit is 62. No more. Whatever I have tried the same ; derailment or couplers go off...* * the first nine hoppers are metal ones...
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