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Offline river6109  
#1 Posted : 12 May 2017 03:21:56(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
my setup is simple except there is a bit of work involved (installation of electrical couplings)

you would have difficulties doing it with Märklin decoders, as most of the decoders only have 2 Aux functions out of 4.

I'm using ESU decoders (sound) but seldom lokpilots.

with ESU products you can add an adapter plate 51968 and by doing this you can have 6 Aux functions.

your options are endless even if you add another lokpilot decoder or function decoder.

the set up and installation is different when using a steam or electric or diesel loco

steam locos:

steam locos have the need for more Aux functions:

Aux 1: steam generator
Aux 4: telex coupling front
Aux 5: telex coupling rear
Aux 4: inspection lights
Aux 5: fire box light
Aux 6: cab light

with this setup you have no auxiliary functions left and you would need an extra lokpilot or function decoder within a carriage

with a 4 pin electrical coupling (Roco 40345) I use the wire connections as follows:

1st connection: red wire (ESU wire colouring)
2nd connection: Aux
3rd connection: Aux
4th wire: common (blue wire) (ESU wire colouring)

the order of how to connect each Aux functions is every ones choice but the rule is always connect the steam generator to Aux 1 and there after it is recommended to use Aux 2 and Aux 3 for telex couplings.
to install the electrical wiring takes some time and task as I take special car to hide the wires within the carriage as much as possible

as mentioned I use 2 type of interior lights, a.) a led strip (open seating arrangement) or I make up a circuit board for cars with compartments.
using this option you can place your leds into position according to the place of the compartment, toilets or entry gang way.

the wiring from the loco decoder is like this if you have 1 or 2 Aux functions left over:

1st Aux = interior light for the whole interior lights or select another Aux function to separate the interior lighting into 2 circuits.:

my setup is with the following idea behind it; very rarely will you find the whole carriage being lit up (especially at night) with having 2 light circuits you can set it up as follows (compartment carriages):

always have your toilet and entry gang way lit up and than you choose 6 out of 12 compartments (circuit 1) and the rest will be your second circuit (4 compartments) you can also leave a couple compartments dark with out light. when approaching a station both light circuits will be activated.

the connection from the decoder adapter plate is simple: just solder the wires to the solder points : red wire, aux wires, blue wire

the reason I use the red wire as well this will give you another option when using a long passenger train (e,g, ICE train with 10 carriages)
or long express trains.
the method I use is : use the first 6 coaches interior light from your loco decoder, by placing a dining car in the middle of the train you can add a function decoder into this carriage, light up your tables and interior lights for the dining car and use the aux wires from the function decoder to light up the next 6 coaches.
Warning: do not connect any wires from the loco decoder to the function decoder in the dining car except the red wire other wise it will interfere with the individual decoder.

as these Roco couplings should only work in one direction, connection from loco to carriages, I make a small white dot on the bottom of the coupling to indicate this carriage is facing the loco and the wiring has to be done accordingly (within the carriage).
Notice: it doesn't matter which carriage is where located so long all of them have the white spot towards the loco or the dining car and make sure the dining car is also marked which end has no other connections than the red wire (one side only).

a lokpilot or function decoder ( dining car) will give you the extension of having your dining car lit + to extend the light functions for the rest of the train. or you can have option 2 and place the function decoder into a driver cab car. (push and pull trains)

the set up is: light up your other carriages: 6 or more again make sure there is no connection between the loco decoder and the function/lokpilot decoder except the red wire)

the function or lokpilot decoder: connect your wires to the front and marker lights, red wire from loco decoder (slider or pick up shoe) so you don't need another slider. use another Aux functions for your cab light, Aux functions for interior light (cab car) and the next 2 Aux functions again for your other passenger carriages. using the blue and Aux wires.
a red wire will always go right through the whole train.

if you have a marker light on your passenger end car use the same decoder Aux function you use for your toilet, entry gangway and compartment lights because they will always be on.

it may sounds complicated but the moment you get the hang of it its just repeating the same logic over and over again.

there are 3 important issues:

make sure the carriage is wired up towards the loco, dining, cab car or end car with marker lights
make sure there is no connection between the loco and lokpilot or function decoder except the red wire
and with compartment cars also make sure which side the compartments are located when reassembling the carriage, some carriages will have only have one way to reassembly the carriage

Leds: I connect my leds in series of 3 leds to one resistor, having 18 led's in a compartment carriage this means 6 x3 leds with 6 resistors (value 1000ohm)

this is how I use the leds in a compartment car.
1st led: entry gang way
2nd led: toilet
3rd led: compartment either first or second this is your choice where to use the led's and in which compartment. the next 3 led's could be used : compartment A followed by compartment B (no lights) compartment C and D. to break it up into different circuits again use your own idea how you would like the compartment to be lit.
there always will be 6 leds for your 2 toilets, 2 entry gangway and 2 compartments and the rest is up to you how you want to configure each compartment and each circuit (e.g. 12 compartments are left over) for shorter carriages less led's required..

regards.,

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Minok  
#2 Posted : 12 May 2017 20:01:53(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Thank you for the detailed description.

In my case, I've got Märklin electric locomotives with their factory mfx decoders in them, that I'd want to run power out of a spare (if it exists) aux output to the Märklin current conducting short coupler to just feed lighting power down to the cars.
I suppose I'll find out whats available, if anything, on the factory decoders as I disassemble each locomotive.

As my trains will pull at most 4 cars it sounds like I'll be fine with a micro-relay to protect things in case of shorts from the powered couplers grounding out on the layout in a derail or other incident.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#3 Posted : 12 May 2017 20:18:58(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
or, just put a single function decoder ($15) in each rake of cars
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline Minok  
#4 Posted : 12 May 2017 22:15:25(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
That would require a pickup shoe for each such set of cars as well, which I want to avoid. The goal is only 1 shoe - in the locomotive.
The cars get the ground pickup off the wheels.

The loco then transmits the center rail power via the conducting coupler which is then passed on down the line from car to car.
Each car then has inside it the rectifier, capacitor, resistor(s) and LED strips to do its lighting.

The basis is this circuit design from the Ingo Mögling website as its been hashed out on the Stummi forum over time.

UserPostedImage
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline dominator  
#5 Posted : 13 May 2017 02:36:19(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
Could you wire the current conducting coupler direct to the loco pick up sho, and fit a decoder in a carriage.
Dereck

oops, see you have already thought of that.
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline river6109  
#6 Posted : 13 May 2017 04:15:57(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I've never gone down that way with rectifier and capacitor, taken the wire for the led's from the decoder it has already the DC voltage so in my case there is no need for a rectifier.
I don't use the wire supplied from the wheels for my led's.
with the diagram above , you only need a 2 pin electrical couplings

Dominator

with Dale Schultz idea its the same if you use a red wire from the locos pickup shoe and use the brown wire from the wheels to connect the decoders (e.g. function decoder)

there are obvious many options one can try. for example:

E-loco decoder with cab lights (2 Aux functions) and left over with 2 Aux functions if available
E-loco decoder with cab lights and 3 individual decoders in passenger cars (3 individual decoder numbers) and run the train as a consist.
(ESU loco decoders (V4) you can't have the same decoder address (RailComPlus)

steam loco decoder with many Aux functions: steam generator, 2 telex coupling, cab light, inspection light, fire box light. this amounts to 6 Aux functions
(in this case there are no Aux functions left and a separate decoder(s) is (are) required for interior lights

Dale's idea makes it even more interested but at the same time could be more demanding if you decide to add a decoder in each carriage, you could for instance add 4 light circuits (4 Aux function decoder) and with passenger compartment cars you could turn compartments single or in series on or off and you also would have control over marker lights (on-off) (in my case only 1 passenger with designated marker lights is possible)

another important issue is the capacity of the decoder and its Aux functions output capacity., so before going ahead with conversions make sure your decoder has the capacity.

I don't know the capability of current Märklin decoders are nor do I know how easy it is to access unused Aux functions or their capacity., especially with steam locos whereas already Aux functions have been used but in any case Dale's idea would be the answer,

John

Edited by user 26 May 2017 12:04:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline jonas_sthlm  
#7 Posted : 13 May 2017 11:37:48(UTC)
jonas_sthlm

Sweden   
Joined: 12/10/2008(UTC)
Posts: 884
Location: Stockholm, Södermalm
One solution for analog passenger wagon lights

UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage

Schaltplan_28702.pdf

But don't forget change to digital lamps inside wagon so the roof doesn't melts of the heat RollEyes
Collecting Swedish items since the 80s / CS3+ / MSW / 60175 Booster / 60881 S88 AC / TC10 Gold / K, C-Tracks / Favorites Class Ra / modelltag.se - Forum modelltag.se - Facebook modelltag.se - YouTube
Offline GlennM  
#8 Posted : 13 May 2017 12:31:03(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,877
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
Very interesting article John, Many thanks ThumpUp ThumpUp
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
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Offline Minok  
#9 Posted : 26 May 2017 23:22:03(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Pulling together the info from the various sources, and designing how I plan to approach it (no decoders in the cars), here is a preliminary wiring schematic:

The most expensive parts in the whole operation would be the current conducting short couplers w/1 conductor (includes the wheel pickup) 72021 at ~ $10
For the circuitry in the cars each (rectifier, resistors, capacitor, wiring, LED spool segments (3-5) ) the cost around ~ $1-2
For the loco (relay, diode, resistor) ~$5

CarLightingFromLocoFunctionViaRelayCurrentConductingCouplers..png
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#10 Posted : 27 May 2017 14:14:39(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Nice diagram!

What was the reasoning for using a 12V relay instead of the MOS FET relay that was suggested?
One of my relays buzzes and I also fear that 12V is not enough....
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline DaleSchultz  
#11 Posted : 27 May 2017 14:15:59(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
also, why do the rectification and smoothing in each railcar, instead of once in the loco ?

edit - ok I get it, because we are grounding in each car so we have to...
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Minok  
#12 Posted : 27 May 2017 17:25:37(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
Nice diagram!

What was the reasoning for using a 12V relay instead of the MOS FET relay that was suggested?
One of my relays buzzes and I also fear that 12V is not enough....


That should handle shorts (coupling contact with things it shouldn't ) solidly. The voltage rating if the relay needs to be matches to the decoder output levels of course. I assume that the decoder output stages are stable on some level and don't fluctuate. If that isn't the case I'd have to rethink. Solid state relays may well work as well but they existed for the past decades and the solutions I could find didn't use it, so I wonder why.

As this method has been worked on and used significantly by the folks in Germany I've got some confidence that it would have need debugged by now of there were issues. The general circuit does consider analog operations as well, but I'm only doing digital.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline Minok  
#13 Posted : 27 May 2017 17:27:43(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
also, why do the rectification and smoothing in each railcar, instead of once in the loco ?

edit - ok I get it, because we are grounding in each car so we have to...


Each car is independent so you can rearrange them and locos from end to end at will (the 1970's way of operation ) . One conductor couplings passing only the track power. It theoretically allows me to use decoupler tracks. Mix and match at will w/o concern for what's inside of any car.

I'm still targeting the foolish idea that i might automate the lok change at an end station.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline Crazy Harry  
#14 Posted : 28 May 2017 21:42:38(UTC)
Crazy Harry

Canada   
Joined: 18/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 475
Location: Oakville, Ontario
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post


CarLightingFromLocoFunctionViaRelayCurrentConductingCouplers..png


Excuse the novice question, but what does is the purpose of the diode in parallel with the relay's coil?

Thanks,

Harold.

Offline kiwiAlan  
#15 Posted : 28 May 2017 21:54:20(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Crazy Harry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post


CarLightingFromLocoFunctionViaRelayCurrentConductingCouplers..png


Excuse the novice question, but what does is the purpose of the diode in parallel with the relay's coil?

Thanks,

Harold.



That is normal when driving the coil from electronics. It clamps the voltage across the coil when the current through it is suddenly turned off when the relay is released. This stops the high voltage that can destroy the driving electronics. The diode should be wired so that it does not conduct while the current flows in the coil.

A diode is also used when using a normal switch to operate the relay as it limits the switch contact arcing.
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Offline Minok  
#16 Posted : 28 May 2017 22:11:45(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
To add more detail to the great explanation, the co Lenin a relay is an inductor and also has its associated electrical field. That's what closes the switch part of the relay. When the current to the coil is turned off from the output of the decoder transistor, the electro magnetic field in that coil/inductor does not instantly dissipate (it is a natural phenomenon). That zero current by existing magnetic field causes the voltage across the leads of the coil (the X1 x2) to want to build as the magnetically induced current needs to be dissipated for a short amount of time. The diode provides a short circuit path for that voltage through the diode and this prevents a very highly voltage spike from building on the decoder outputs which would eventually burn out the decoder.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline Crazy Harry  
#17 Posted : 28 May 2017 22:25:02(UTC)
Crazy Harry

Canada   
Joined: 18/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 475
Location: Oakville, Ontario
Thanks for the quick replies from kiwiAlan and Minor - I get it now!

I have old analog stock but am interested in going digital in the future. I like the idea of controlling the consist lighting from the locomotive and eliminating the pick-up sliders on all coaches.

Thanks for your help,

Harold.
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