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Offline Dreadnought  
#1 Posted : 15 March 2017 00:18:29(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 418
Location: Niagara, Ontario
On a recent trip to Paris I went to Au Pullman. I was smitten by LS Model set 40 186, "Rapide Nord". My hope was to replicate the consist for the international trains from Calais to various cities in Europe during era lll. I like to mix SNCF, SNCB, CIWL, DB and/or OBB coaches.

I am having trouble with the LS couplers. They let go of my Marklin couplers on other coaches and locomotives. I have replaced some with Marklin close couplers, however they seem to be too close which causes the coaches to lock together and to derail on corners. The LS couplers are hard to fit to the coaches. They seem to have a "spreader" that keeps the jaws from fitting snugly into the nem socket. the Marklin couplers seem to go in readily.

Has anyone put LS and Marklin together? Is there a secret?

The coaches are beautifully detailed. There are various attachments that allow you to change to short accordeon connections for the last coach, and fittings to replicate the hoses for a last coach. The coaches feel quite heavy, and I wonder if they cause too much drag, causing lighter coaches to derail on corners. I have been putting them next to the locomotive, at the front of the consist.
Offline Leitner  
#2 Posted : 15 March 2017 00:34:57(UTC)
Leitner

Taiwan, Province Of China   
Joined: 25/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 274
I have several CIWL coach made by LS Models and I have to say they never give me big problems (at least not as big as the Heris one, those are really a disaster), my suggestion is not to run them on R1, R2 curvature is the minimum I think in order to run trouble free.

Ep. III (My layout is set in 1962).
I collect mainly DSB, DB and SBB but I'm quite... Open minded.
I'm quite a big collector of NOHAB lok :)
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 15 March 2017 07:52:06(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

Using Märklin close couplers with scale models often leads to problems.
Better use Roco couplers for all non-Märklin coaches and for the Märklin rolling stock next to the non-Märklin items.

I only have freight cars from LS Models, but have had several problems with coaches (and freight cars) from other brands when they collide with oversized Märklin close couplers.

See also:
http://blog.mailez.de/eb...-couplers-for-h0-models/
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline jvuye  
#4 Posted : 15 March 2017 15:23:24(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

Using Märklin close couplers with scale models often leads to problems.
Better use Roco couplers for all non-Märklin coaches and for the Märklin rolling stock next to the non-Märklin items.

I only have freight cars from LS Models, but have had several problems with coaches (and freight cars) from other brands when they collide with oversized Märklin close couplers.

See also:
http://blog.mailez.de/eb...-couplers-for-h0-models/


Absolutely!!


Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 16 March 2017 06:28:38(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
On a recent trip to Paris I went to Au Pullman. I was smitten by LS Model set 40 186, "Rapide Nord". My hope was to replicate the consist for the international trains from Calais to various cities in Europe during era lll. I like to mix SNCF, SNCB, CIWL, DB and/or OBB coaches.

I am having trouble with the LS couplers. They let go of my Marklin couplers on other coaches and locomotives. I have replaced some with Marklin close couplers, however they seem to be too close which causes the coaches to lock together and to derail on corners. The LS couplers are hard to fit to the coaches. They seem to have a "spreader" that keeps the jaws from fitting snugly into the nem socket. the Marklin couplers seem to go in readily.

Has anyone put LS and Marklin together? Is there a secret?

The coaches are beautifully detailed. There are various attachments that allow you to change to short accordeon connections for the last coach, and fittings to replicate the hoses for a last coach. The coaches feel quite heavy, and I wonder if they cause too much drag, causing lighter coaches to derail on corners. I have been putting them next to the locomotive, at the front of the consist.


I have quite the collection of LSM models, mainly coaches of the NS, SNCB, DB, SBB, OBB and FS. There seems to be some variation in the length of the NEM shaft and/or socket height on some models. Some models, when using Maerklin's 7203, the coaches will not couple because there is not enough space between coaches for the coupler to fully engage. I estimate that it would take less than a millimetre more for it to operate properly. On some other models, the coupling shaft hangs a little lower than desired, which can cause trouble with coupling.
My solution to this has been to use Roco's 40397 Universal Coupler on those models. The shaft of these Roco couplers is about 1mm longer than that of a Maerklin 7203, meaning that these couplers have enough space to successfully couple together.
It may also occur on some models that the buffers may contact the coupling loop of Maerklin couplers (7203) while the coach is turning and this can lead to the coach being lifted off the rails or tilting or tipping. This is also resolved with the use of the Roco Universal couplers.
Except in Italy, where the sale of these Roco couplings is forbidden. (I guess that somebody else holds the rights for use in Italy).

Regards

Mike C
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Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 16 March 2017 07:52:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
Except in Italy, where the sale of these Roco couplings is forbidden.
It seems the ban for Italy was lifted. No more sale restrictions on current boxes.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Dreadnought  
#7 Posted : 16 March 2017 15:06:03(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 418
Location: Niagara, Ontario
My thanks to all, and particularly Mike C. I have started the hunt for Rocco couplers. I will be in the U.K in about two weeks, if I have time I will see if any train stores there might have some. I doubt they are readily available in North America,
Thank You all
Offline PMPeter  
#8 Posted : 16 March 2017 16:33:53(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
My thanks to all, and particularly Mike C. I have started the hunt for Rocco couplers. I will be in the U.K in about two weeks, if I have time I will see if any train stores there might have some. I doubt they are readily available in North America,
Thank You all


The Roco universal couplers are readily available in North America from places such as Eurorail hobbies, Reynaulds; possibly John's Hobbies in Toronto, but probably not West End Trains since I do not believe Mike handles Roco.

Peter
Offline mike c  
#9 Posted : 18 March 2017 09:23:54(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
@Dreadnought:

For the couplings, try John's in Toronto, Reynaulds in IL, Eurorailhobbies in BC, AJCKids in TX, Euromodeltrains or EuroTrainHobby in NJ.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline PMPeter  
#10 Posted : 18 March 2017 15:42:10(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
@Dreadnought:

For the couplings, try John's in Toronto, Reynaulds in IL, Eurorailhobbies in BC, AJCKids in TX, Euromodeltrains or EuroTrainHobby in NJ.

Regards

Mike C


Pretty much what I said 2 days ago. BigGrin
Offline Dreadnought  
#11 Posted : 06 June 2017 15:15:30(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 418
Location: Niagara, Ontario
I got the ROCO couplers, and have tried them out. They work very well, except going through a left / right turn on switches, from one track to a parallel track. I was suspicious there was not enough play in the bogies. I may be wrong in this. Curiously when the LS is coupled to Marklin cars, ands not another LS it has no problem.

IN any event they work well enough, and make for a beautiful Venice Orient express mix from the fifties. I put in some German, CIWL, and OBB along with the LS Nord. I use the BB 1200, and the E17, or 01 class. A great mix of different coaches.

Thank you to all for your help.
Offline mike c  
#12 Posted : 06 June 2017 23:06:38(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
If you are using the LSM coaches with regular Maerklin switches and the resulting S-curve, you are very likely to encounter problems, since the radius of the curve is at the lowest end of the tolerance of the exact scale LSM coach and the S-curve makes it even more complicated. One suggestion you can perhaps try is to leave the standard couplers on the LSM coach and use either Maerklin 7203 or Roco's Universal Coupler (40397) on the adjacent coaches, which will provide a little more space between coaches.

If you switch to the wide radius switches, this problem should not occur.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Dreadnought  
#13 Posted : 07 June 2017 14:43:30(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 418
Location: Niagara, Ontario
You are right, as usual. It is on the reguar switches, and double slip switches I have the problem. It also happened with the LSM couplers. I believe the regular Marklin switches are R1, hence the problem. Curiously there is one double slip switch, to regular switch s curve they are fine on. This leads me to believe the tolerance is very close. The fact that the coaches now work is my victory.

Thank you
Offline rbw993  
#14 Posted : 07 June 2017 16:01:28(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 954
FYI - Regular curved C-track switches are R1. Regular straight(w/one curved leg) switches are R2.
Offline Dreadnought  
#15 Posted : 27 May 2018 17:18:48(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 418
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Mike C is right.

After lengthy consultations with Mike and Klaus Sorge, the conclusion is that there is no answer. We have not dissected any of the coaches, but there has been some intense observation and study. Consensus is that the LS trucks do not have enough freedom of movement, turning radius, to make the S bend caused by two Marklin switches, passing from one track to a parallel track. Simply put they bind, and catch on the frogs. An additional problem ones from the delicate nature of the coaches. The Rocco couplers are very close, and some buffers have been broken off on the S bends. The seem fine on R3 and R2 curves, and look wonderful behind the 241.

My solution will be to hope Marklin will make a range of SNCF and CIWL coaches to go with the 241.
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Offline jvuye  
#16 Posted : 27 May 2018 19:30:42(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
Mike C is right.

After lengthy consultations with Mike and Klaus Sorge, the conclusion is that there is no answer. We have not dissected any of the coaches, but there has been some intense observation and study. Consensus is that the LS trucks do not have enough freedom of movement, turning radius, to make the S bend caused by two Marklin switches, passing from one track to a parallel track. Simply put they bind, and catch on the frogs. An additional problem ones from the delicate nature of the coaches. The Rocco couplers are very close, and some buffers have been broken off on the S bends. The seem fine on R3 and R2 curves, and look wonderful behind the 241.

My solution will be to hope Marklin will make a range of SNCF and CIWL coaches to go with the 241.


Have you measured the spacing between flanges of these coaches axles?
It should be 13.8 to 14.0 mm.
As for the buffers, when you use the ROCO "Universal" couplers there is less chances that they interfere with buffers and other details.
Cheers
Jacques
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline mike c  
#17 Posted : 27 May 2018 21:21:14(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
If you are still having issues, even after changing to Roco's 40397 Universal Coupler, I would suggest that you try to equip alternating coaches with the Roco Universal Coupler and with the regular Maerklin coupler. There are slight variations in the length of the coupler sockets, coupling shafts, which often affect the operation of the couplers themselves. On many of my ACME, LSM, Liliput and other coaches, I have found that the Roco 40397 has approximately 1mm more length than Maerklin's 7203, which facilitates coupling between coaches where sometimes they will not couple or will detach for no reason.

There are some manufacturers (e.g. Hag) that manufacture normal couplings with varying length shafts, which can be used when you need to extend the coupler so that it can properly connect.

Unfortunately, it seems that testing how a coach/car couplers to other coaches/cars of the same brand or different brands is not always part of the development process.

The mix of normal and close couplings will most likely solve any issues with switch tracks as there will be more play between cars/coaches.

Regards

Mike C
Offline dickinsonj  
#18 Posted : 29 May 2018 01:13:28(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post

My solution will be to hope Marklin will make a range of SNCF and CIWL coaches to go with the 241.


I am hoping for the same thing! BigGrin

Right now my 241 takes turns stealing coaches from the other locos on my layout and I hope to one day find the perfect set of coaches for that beautiful loco.Cool
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline Dreadnought  
#19 Posted : 10 June 2018 02:23:03(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 418
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
Mike C is right.

After lengthy consultations with Mike and Klaus Sorge, the conclusion is that there is no answer. We have not dissected any of the coaches, but there has been some intense observation and study. Consensus is that the LS trucks do not have enough freedom of movement, turning radius, to make the S bend caused by two Marklin switches, passing from one track to a parallel track. Simply put they bind, and catch on the frogs. An additional problem ones from the delicate nature of the coaches. The Rocco couplers are very close, and some buffers have been broken off on the S bends. The seem fine on R3 and R2 curves, and look wonderful behind the 241.

My solution will be to hope Marklin will make a range of SNCF and CIWL coaches to go with the 241.


Have you measured the spacing between flanges of these coaches axles?
It should be 13.8 to 14.0 mm.
As for the buffers, when you use the ROCO "Universal" couplers there is less chances that they interfere with buffers and other details.
Cheers
Jacques



Jacques,

I envy you your technical skills. The odds of me being skilled enough to do such a fine measure are very long indeed. I know you have managed to alter the flange spacing on some carriages. That too is beyond my skills. A possible solution that is within my abilities is to eliminate S bends by putting a short strait between the switches.
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