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Online analogmike  
#1 Posted : 21 February 2017 14:51:43(UTC)
analogmike

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Joined: 02/08/2014(UTC)
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Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
Does anyone know why some signal masts are colored red/wt/red/wt/red while others are wt/red/wt/red/wt ?
The only reason I can think of is direction of travel, North/ South etc.

Mikey

sigs 002.JPG
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 21 February 2017 15:36:52(UTC)
RayF

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Maybe it depends what pot of paint was opened first? BigGrin
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#3 Posted : 21 February 2017 18:05:41(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Or someone put the coloured stripe on with the top at the bottom ... BigGrin
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#4 Posted : 22 February 2017 00:00:48(UTC)
DaleSchultz

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The correct colours should be white-red-white (once only)

It is called a Mastschild.
Viessmann get it right: http://cabin-layout.blog.../Installing-signals.html
also
http://cabin-layout.blog...German-Light-signal.html


See also: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastschild
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline Minok  
#5 Posted : 22 February 2017 00:37:50(UTC)
Minok

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Near as I can tell, the coloration or additional painted indications on the mast itself are presently only to indicate what the train engineer is supposed to do if an electronic signal is out, where they cannot see what the signal indication is.

A white/red/white marking indicates one can only proceed past under very limited conditions (such as verbal authorization, some temporary signals etc)

For form signals, I'm not sure there would be any such meaning as the physical arms would still indicate... though maybe the presence is a backup to the form arms being lost... what then?

UserPostedImage

In any case I cannot find any indication that red-white-red vs white-red-white would be different.

http://www.hgk.de/images...ds/DB-Richtlinie-301.pdf
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#6 Posted : 22 February 2017 01:02:22(UTC)
DaleSchultz

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I guess the minimum is white-red-white. They seem to have evolved over time too, so perhaps previously the practice was to repeat it as much as possible.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Online DB Fan  
#7 Posted : 22 February 2017 01:32:21(UTC)
DB Fan

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As far as I could find out through reading several different articles on DB Form Hauptsignale the mast is painted white/red/white or several other paint schemes in times before and during the Reichsbahn time period. After forming the DB (Deutsche Bundesbahn) all masts where then painted red/white/red to make everything look uniform and less confusing through different paint schemes. This is great . I learned something new because this topic spurred me on to do some research on signals. Thanks analogmike.

Robert
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Offline Minok  
#8 Posted : 22 February 2017 01:54:08(UTC)
Minok

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Originally Posted by: DB Fan Go to Quoted Post
...After forming the DB (Deutsche Bundesbahn) all masts where then painted red/white/red to make everything look uniform ...


So does that cover red/white/red/white/red ?

The colored signs on the mast are there to cover when the lighting on the signals fails, to tell you there is a signal there (like when a traffic light fails and we should all know to treat it as a multi-way-stop [but too many idiots dont]).

With semaphore signals, you already have a backup to the illuminated bits - the semaphores themselves.

So are the painted mask a security in case the semaphore arms break and are all pointing straight down, or ripped from the mast?

It does appear that red/white/red/... means one thing, while white/black/white/black/white means something else, and yellow/white/yellow/white, yet another thing, etc.

--

Having done a bit more reading I found: http://www.stellwerke.de...l/deutsch/sp.html#dunkel
Quote:
Das Signal sollte leuchten, tut es aber nicht (Birne durchgebrannt, Kabel defekt, kein Gas mehr in Propangasflasche). Dann ist das Signal erloschen.

War das Signal ein Formsignal, so ist die Stellung des Signalflügels maßgeblich und muß beachtet werden.
War das Signal ein Lichtsignal und sollte es einen Fahrtbegriff zeigen, so fällt es automatisch in einen niedrigeren Begriff zurück. Dieser kann auch "Halt" sein. Ist die Rotbirne durchgebrannt, so wird ein Ersatzfaden/eine Ersatzlampe angeschaltet. Kann auch diese nicht mehr leuchten, so ist das Signal tatsächlich dunkel. Dann ist das an diesem Signal angebrachte Mastschild zu beachten.


Which indicates the 'mastschild' that is the red/white/red (for example) sign attached to the mast, is to cover the failure of the lighted signals.

For semaphore signals, the failed illumination indicates the engineer should follow the position of the semaphore arms. So its not clear what the red/white/red/white... striping on the semaphore signal arms is for.. if its a backup to the backup, or just to help ID the presence of the semaphore (at night, if the illuminated gas lamp has failed, the engineer needs to know to look for the semaphore arms before he gets to the signal.. so painting the mast gives a bigger thing to have to see from just headlights).
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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My YouTube Channel:
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Offline Rwill  
#9 Posted : 22 February 2017 13:12:15(UTC)
Rwill

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Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC)
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Location: England, London
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
The correct colours should be white-red-white (once only)

It is called a Mastschild.


So it seems that Marklin gets it absolutely prototypically correct:

http://www.maerklin.de/e...rrpdb_pi1%5BnoPaging%5D=

For three year olds!
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 22 February 2017 13:51:18(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
White-red-white indicates a main signal. And if the train driver cannot read the main signal they have to assume STOP.
There is a different reflective sign (Mastschild) for distant signals. If they cannot read a distant signal, they have to prepare for the worst case and expect STOP at the next main signal.

The arm of a form signal may not always be clearly visible. Think of a night with drifting snow or think mist - and the lights on the locos are rather marker lights, not beams.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Online analogmike  
#11 Posted : 22 February 2017 13:55:51(UTC)
analogmike

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Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
Thank you all for the replies,
The links were very informative. I had no idea there were so many variants. Black/White, Arrows etc.
I went digging and found two of the same Marklin signals with different markings.
The early production sig shows w/r/w while the late model shows r/w/r. This goes opposite according to the info posted here adding a bit more confusion to the issue.

sig-2 002.JPG

I agree that more white on the mast increases visibility at night but I can't get away form the fact that I think the ones with more red just look cool ThumpUp even though it may not be entirely prototypical.
This lack of uniformity is one of those things on my layout that drives me crazy and I'll bet no one else would ever notice.
On the last "shorty" that I rebuilt I painted the mast r/w/r and it really makes it blend in with the semaphore types. And it looks cool ThumpUp .

sig-3 001.JPG

Some more red ones
Mikey

9110.jpg


I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
Offline TEEWolf  
#12 Posted : 23 February 2017 01:48:02(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: analogmike Go to Quoted Post
Thank you all for the replies,
The links were very informative. I had no idea there were so many variants. Black/White, Arrows etc.
I went digging and found two of the same Marklin signals with different markings.
The early production sig shows w/r/w while the late model shows r/w/r. This goes opposite according to the info posted here adding a bit more confusion to the issue.

I agree that more white on the mast increases visibility at night but I can't get away form the fact that I think the ones with more red just look cool ThumpUp even though it may not be entirely prototypical.
This lack of uniformity is one of those things on my layout that drives me crazy and I'll bet no one else would ever notice.
On the last "shorty" that I rebuilt I painted the mast r/w/r and it really makes it blend in with the semaphore types. And it looks cool ThumpUp .

Some more red ones
Mikey


Overall very interesting and informing posts, but indeed your original question is not answered yet. Wheras I can imagine by the German perfectness there will be an answer. Honestly, I also did not find one, only a further assumption.

Two more links:

first in English
http://stellwerke.de/index_e.html

second in German
http://stellwerke.de/signal/deutsch/sp.html#sp1

In the second link (in German language) you see on one sight, what Dale (post #4) were writing and linking about the "Mastschild".

The (translated) remark below these 6 signs is:

"A white sheet with a red rectangle or a red arrow pointing upwards (1) or two black dots (2) or two yellow rectangles (3) or two black rectangles (4) or a red sheet (5)."

To myself it looks like, that the white colour comes from the used material for the signal mast: tin plate. The basic colour for this material has a white appearance. So they just painted the other colours on these tin plate masts.

Probabely at a certain point, the signal was emphasised by painting the tin plate mast in white colour for a better brilliance.

Please remember: the colours on the signal mast regulates the behaviour for an engine driver in the case of an interrupted or STOP signal.

The rumor is, it is necessary, because the German railway DB AG does not have enough money to buy a mobile phone for all their engine drivers.Huh Laugh Laugh
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Offline TEEWolf  
#13 Posted : 23 February 2017 02:04:09(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Or someone put the coloured stripe on with the top at the bottom ... BigGrin


Good humor. ThumpUp But please do not forget: the Germans do not have this fine humor - unfortunately. They must have a reason for this!BigGrin
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Offline H0  
#14 Posted : 23 February 2017 08:25:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
The rumor is, it is necessary, because the German railway DB AG does not have enough money to buy a mobile phone for all their engine drivers.
ROTFLMAO. Flapper

Communication was limited in era II. The third headlight on locomotives was used for communications as not all posts had telephone.
There was a brakeman in every brakeman's cab.
There are interesting stories by Karl-Ernst Maedel that illustrate how hard the railway life was back then. There is one story where a signal was frozen in the stop position. And later at a station they find a dead brakeman in his cab.

And today coloured stripes on signal masts are still meaningful - at least on routes without LZB and ETCS.


Mobile phones are so slow. With a click of a mouse the dispatcher can set the route for a train - and the signals tell the train driver what to do.
OT: Phone reception is not always good. Remember Bad Aibling where the route was set for a collision course. Natural stupidity overrode artificial intelligence and mobile phones could not prevent the accident after the dispatcher realised his mistake.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Markus Schild  
#15 Posted : 23 February 2017 10:07:11(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
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Location: Wurttemberg
Hi,

Until 1976 the signals 7040 + 7041 are shown with a white- red - white stripe in the Märklin-catalogue. 1976 also on the title of the catalogue. From 1977 the catalogue shows red-white-red stripes. The layout shown on page 58 of the 1977 catalogue shows both versions:

UserPostedImage

Regards

Markus
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Online analogmike  
#16 Posted : 23 February 2017 14:03:42(UTC)
analogmike

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Location: NEW JERSEY, USA
Yes, Life on the old Eisennbahn was hard.

16912.jpg
I love the smell of smoke fluid in the morning .
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