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Offline Sang Joon Oh  
#1 Posted : 09 February 2017 11:13:29(UTC)
Sang Joon Oh


Joined: 13/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 14
Hello...

I have some beginner questions again. :)

I have plan to make automation system in big layout.
But I realized that I need so many digital parts(signals, brake module etc..) for automation system in big layout.
I know that It need CS2, S88, Circuit tracks for automation.
I also heard it need to use PC software for realistic system.

Questions.
1. If I use traincontrol PC software with only CS2 & S88 & Circuit tracks, Can I control trains to stop and go without signal & insulation of tracks?
2. If I use traincontrol PC software, I don't need brake module for deceleration?
3. I know Rocrail is free, train controller is not free.
Which is Big difference between Rocrail & Train controller?

Regards.
Offline PeFu  
#2 Posted : 09 February 2017 12:12:23(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,208
Originally Posted by: Sang Joon Oh Go to Quoted Post
Hello...

I have some beginner questions again. :)

I have plan to make automation system in big layout.
But I realized that I need so many digital parts(signals, brake module etc..) for automation system in big layout.
I know that It need CS2, S88, Circuit tracks for automation.
I also heard it need to use PC software for realistic system.

Questions.
1. If I use traincontrol PC software with only CS2 & S88 & Circuit tracks, Can I control trains to stop and go without signal & insulation of tracks?
2. If I use traincontrol PC software, I don't need brake module for deceleration?
3. I know Rocrail is free, train controller is not free.
Which is Big difference between Rocrail & Train controller?

Regards.


Great that you also are interested in this! My first question: What track system will you have? C, K or M tracks?
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by PeFu
Offline kiwiAlan  
#3 Posted : 09 February 2017 12:53:20(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Another PC software package is JMRI which I beleive will work with a cs1, possibly with a cs2. This runs on Java, so will run on a Mac, linux or Windows, or almost any operating system that supports Java.

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline Sang Joon Oh  
#4 Posted : 09 February 2017 13:22:57(UTC)
Sang Joon Oh


Joined: 13/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 14
Hello Pefu.

I use C track & Ac rail & CS2.

regards
Offline French_Fabrice  
#5 Posted : 09 February 2017 19:33:53(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,475
Location: Lyon, France
Originally Posted by: Sang Joon Oh Go to Quoted Post
Hello...

I have some beginner questions again. :)

I have plan to make automation system in big layout.
But I realized that I need so many digital parts(signals, brake module etc..) for automation system in big layout.
I know that It need CS2, S88, Circuit tracks for automation.
I also heard it need to use PC software for realistic system.

Questions.
1. If I use traincontrol PC software with only CS2 & S88 & Circuit tracks, Can I control trains to stop and go without signal & insulation of tracks?
2. If I use traincontrol PC software, I don't need brake module for deceleration?
3. I know Rocrail is free, train controller is not free.
Which is Big difference between Rocrail & Train controller?

Regards.


Hi,

I will not answer exactly to your questions, because I don't use Train Controller software but instead Rocrail.

1. With Rocrail (and with most software), the answer is yes.
2. With Rocrail (and with most software), the answer is yes.
3. In my opinion, the main difference is related to "speed curve" of locos. In TC, you have the software to learn a speed curve for each loco you intend to run automatically on the PC driven layout. In Rocrail, the "speed curve" concept is not implemented in the same way; the BBT feature of Rocrail (automatic learning of smooth brake in blocks) allows to achieve quite similar results, but the learning process is related to each block, which may take longer time. Others differences exist, but both software share the same concepts (please TC experts, correct me if I'm wrong).

Also have a look there: https://www.marklin-user...ps-and-tricks#post456287 where the main concepts are described.

As a word of conclusion, I would strongly suggest you not to plan a big layout, especially if you are a beginner in the world of MRR. Automation is not itself very difficult, if you take time to think and do a lot of trial (and errors). But others aspects may discourage you (mechanical problems, electricity & electronic problems, wood work, etc...). MRR is a world of patience, and you need time 1) to learn, 2) and learn again from your previous errors. It's not a plug and play discipline and experience is a key factor.

Don't get too much disappointed. You'll find here many resources and people able to increase your learning curve.

Cheers
fabrice
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by French_Fabrice
Offline PeFu  
#6 Posted : 09 February 2017 23:59:42(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,208
Originally Posted by: Sang Joon Oh Go to Quoted Post
Hello Pefu.

I use C track & Ac rail & CS2.

regards


My suggestion is that you "cut" standard C tracks, and connect them to a relevant feedback module. I use the Littfinski RM-88-N-O module with 16 inputs for this. The cost for one unit is approx. 55 EUR, which gives a cost of less than 4 EUR per input. Cutting C tracks eliminate the need of circuit tracks on the layout.

Yes, there is no need for braking sections, the software you select takes care of all activities. I use TrainController Silver as I had a license from the early days of this century, which I could upgrade. Rocrail seems to be a free software, but I don't know anything about it.

Edited by user 10 February 2017 09:03:08(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by PeFu
Offline Danlake  
#7 Posted : 10 February 2017 09:40:14(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Hi there,

Train controller is a professional software package that comes in 3 different versions - bronze, silver and gold.

For a basic pc automation on a small layout the cheap bronze version may do. However if you are interested in real prototypical engine behaviour (I.e. perfect smooth acceleration and de acceleration I recommend silver or gold versions), which has the capability to accurately speed profile your engines.

It's a windows based program and fairly easy to use if you are familiar with the usual windows based program.

Traincontroller can not only monitor and control the trains, but also has a fairly complex event/logic feature. E.g. you can tell it to monitor various events and apply conditions to these. An example could be: if schedule A is active and train 4 is driving, but not train 5 and feedback contact is occupied then execute following operation.... for larger layout these mean people can create almost endless automation and even complicated automatic shunting operation.

As with any software I suggest to first have a browse through the manual and then try and download a trial version for free first. Or start by watching a few or the first videos from this Dutch guy regarding train controller:

https://rudysmodelrailwa...ategory/traincontroller/

Personally I am a big fan of train controller and the more I learn about it the more impress I get of these German piece of software, but it is rather expensive and the gold version cost nearly the same as a CS 2.

Brgds Lasse

Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Danlake
Offline Minok  
#8 Posted : 10 February 2017 20:31:19(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: Sang Joon Oh Go to Quoted Post

Questions.
1. If I use traincontrol PC software with only CS2 & S88 & Circuit tracks, Can I control trains to stop and go without signal & insulation of tracks?


When you use computer automation, via TrainController (or others) the computer software tracks and manages the locations and movement of trains on the layout. The software slows down, stops, and starts the trains.

In this world, signals are no longer needed to control the trains (via the signals controlling the power to the tracks) - instead, the software controls the trains by detecting (via S88 detection areas) where the trains are located.

That said, you likely still want some form of signals on your layout for realism - the signals serve only cosmetic purposes - that is, they display the control states the computer software is implementing, but do not directly change the track power.

You do still need insulation of tracks however, as this is how you detect where the trains are located. Rather than insulating the center rail that powers the train, you isolate segments of one of the outer rails and feed those isolated rail segments to S88 detectors, which report to the computer software. The computer software then knows when a train on that track has reached that location, and can then change the trains speed, to cause it to stop, slow, etc.


Originally Posted by: Sang Joon Oh Go to Quoted Post

2. If I use traincontrol PC software, I don't need brake module for deceleration?


Yes, that is correct. The computer software handles starting and stopping. Via an S88 detection, the computer knows when a train has reached a stopping region and slows down the train.

Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Minok
Offline Minok  
#9 Posted : 10 February 2017 21:31:13(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Another PC software package is JMRI which I beleive will work with a cs1, possibly with a cs2. This runs on Java, so will run on a Mac, linux or Windows, or almost any operating system that supports Java.



The funny thing about JMRI, ( which appears to be an open-source collaboratively produced collection of software solutions for the configuration, automation and control of a model railroad ) is that like so many of these projects, they are so close to the work they cannot explain it well to an outsider.

No where in the JMRI page or its help or even its glossary, not to speak of the "what is JMRI" section, no where I was able to find does the acronym JMRI ever get defined. What does JMRI stand for?

Sure, I could make an educated guess, like Java Model Railroad Interface.. did I guess right? I have no idea.

I do see that it interfaces to a Märklin CS2, so presumably some subset of the collection of JMRI tools can be used to automate/control a Märklin layout. Does that only work with DCC or also with MM or MFX control?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline kiwiAlan  
#10 Posted : 11 February 2017 01:31:35(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Another PC software package is JMRI which I beleive will work with a cs1, possibly with a cs2. This runs on Java, so will run on a Mac, linux or Windows, or almost any operating system that supports Java.



The funny thing about JMRI, ( which appears to be an open-source collaboratively produced collection of software solutions for the configuration, automation and control of a model railroad ) is that like so many of these projects, they are so close to the work they cannot explain it well to an outsider.

No where in the JMRI page or its help or even its glossary, not to speak of the "what is JMRI" section, no where I was able to find does the acronym JMRI ever get defined. What does JMRI stand for?

Sure, I could make an educated guess, like Java Model Railroad Interface.. did I guess right? I have no idea.


Yes, you guessed right. I also have to agree with your assessment in the first paragraph. BigGrin

Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

I do see that it interfaces to a Märklin CS2, so presumably some subset of the collection of JMRI tools can be used to automate/control a Märklin layout. Does that only work with DCC or also with MM or MFX control?


I don't know, but I would expect it to work with both. I haven't actually tried it with a cs2. I have very limited experience using it with an Intellibox, but that is it. I haven't (yet) worked out how the PC can find out the identifier of an mfx loco, be it the mfx address used to send data to the loco, or the human readable identifier shown on the cs2 screen. One day I will get to a point where I can experiment with doing these things.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline Sang Joon Oh  
#11 Posted : 12 February 2017 03:28:38(UTC)
Sang Joon Oh


Joined: 13/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Sang Joon Oh Go to Quoted Post
Hello Pefu.

I use C track & Ac rail & CS2.

regards


My suggestion is that you "cut" standard C tracks, and connect them to a relevant feedback module. I use the Littfinski RM-88-N-O module with 16 inputs for this. The cost for one unit is approx. 55 EUR, which gives a cost of less than 4 EUR per input. Cutting C tracks eliminate the need of circuit tracks on the layout.

Yes, there is no need for braking sections, the software you select takes care of all activities. I use TrainController Silver as I had a license from the early days of this century, which I could upgrade. Rocrail seems to be a free software, but I don't know anything about it.


Thanks Pefu.

I want to know how to make circuit track for C track?
IS it need to cut c track?
Could you more explain to me about this or give some images?

Regards.

SJ
Offline PeFu  
#12 Posted : 12 February 2017 17:52:04(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,208
Originally Posted by: Sang Joon Oh Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Sang Joon Oh Go to Quoted Post
Hello Pefu.

I use C track & Ac rail & CS2.

regards


My suggestion is that you "cut" standard C tracks, and connect them to a relevant feedback module. I use the Littfinski RM-88-N-O module with 16 inputs for this. The cost for one unit is approx. 55 EUR, which gives a cost of less than 4 EUR per input. Cutting C tracks eliminate the need of circuit tracks on the layout.

Yes, there is no need for braking sections, the software you select takes care of all activities. I use TrainController Silver as I had a license from the early days of this century, which I could upgrade. Rocrail seems to be a free software, but I don't know anything about it.


Thanks Pefu.

I want to know how to make circuit track for C track?
IS it need to cut c track?
Could you more explain to me about this or give some images?

Regards.

SJ


At each end of the C track, you cut the metal according to this picture:

UserPostedImage

A cable is connected to the track as follows:

UserPostedImage

The cable is connected to the S88 module. Finally, the rail is isolated at each end of the C track, with a Märklin 74030 as follows:

UserPostedImage

Now, you have constructed and implemented a contact track!

Cool PeFu





Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by PeFu
Offline Sang Joon Oh  
#13 Posted : 13 February 2017 08:52:04(UTC)
Sang Joon Oh


Joined: 13/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Sang Joon Oh Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Sang Joon Oh Go to Quoted Post
Hello Pefu.

I use C track & Ac rail & CS2.

regards


My suggestion is that you "cut" standard C tracks, and connect them to a relevant feedback module. I use the Littfinski RM-88-N-O module with 16 inputs for this. The cost for one unit is approx. 55 EUR, which gives a cost of less than 4 EUR per input. Cutting C tracks eliminate the need of circuit tracks on the layout.

Yes, there is no need for braking sections, the software you select takes care of all activities. I use TrainController Silver as I had a license from the early days of this century, which I could upgrade. Rocrail seems to be a free software, but I don't know anything about it.


Thanks Pefu.

I want to know how to make circuit track for C track?
IS it need to cut c track?
Could you more explain to me about this or give some images?

Regards.

SJ


At each end of the C track, you cut the metal according to this picture:

UserPostedImage

A cable is connected to the track as follows:

UserPostedImage

The cable is connected to the S88 module. Finally, the rail is isolated at each end of the C track, with a Märklin 74030 as follows:

UserPostedImage

Now, you have constructed and implemented a contact track!

Cool PeFu








Thanks. Pefu. :)
I will try to make contact track as your kind explanation.

I have one more question.
It need to make pair of contact track or only one contact track is working?

Best Regads.
Offline PeFu  
#14 Posted : 13 February 2017 13:40:01(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,208
Originally Posted by: Sang Joon Oh Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Sang Joon Oh Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Sang Joon Oh Go to Quoted Post
Hello Pefu.

I use C track & Ac rail & CS2.

regards


My suggestion is that you "cut" standard C tracks, and connect them to a relevant feedback module. I use the Littfinski RM-88-N-O module with 16 inputs for this. The cost for one unit is approx. 55 EUR, which gives a cost of less than 4 EUR per input. Cutting C tracks eliminate the need of circuit tracks on the layout.

Yes, there is no need for braking sections, the software you select takes care of all activities. I use TrainController Silver as I had a license from the early days of this century, which I could upgrade. Rocrail seems to be a free software, but I don't know anything about it.


Thanks Pefu.

I want to know how to make circuit track for C track?
IS it need to cut c track?
Could you more explain to me about this or give some images?

Regards.

SJ


At each end of the C track, you cut the metal according to this picture:

UserPostedImage

A cable is connected to the track as follows:

UserPostedImage

The cable is connected to the S88 module. Finally, the rail is isolated at each end of the C track, with a Märklin 74030 as follows:

UserPostedImage

Now, you have constructed and implemented a contact track!

Cool PeFu








Thanks. Pefu. :)
I will try to make contact track as your kind explanation.

I have one more question.
It need to make pair of contact track or only one contact track is working?

Best Regads.


I would recommend a contact track for every spot where you would like locomotives to stop. Also, I would recommend a contact track for every spot where you would like locomotives to start braking.

Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
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