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Offline Jabez  
#1 Posted : 01 February 2017 19:06:56(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 553
Location: Brussels
Does anyone know how to register/program a Fleischmann AC digital loco (394673) with the MS2 (60657) to run on a Maerklin digital layout?
My Maerklin 60657 instruction booklet and the Fleischmann instruction booklet that came with the loco both give different, and even contradictory information on how this should be done. e.g. the Fleischmann booklet refers to using the ESC button on the MS2, but there is no such button on the MS2. It also says the red control knob should be pushed to initiate some steps, but the MS2 instructions make no mention of this requirement.
I have followed both sets of instructions with no success.
Could someone post step-by-step instructions on how to program this, or any Fleischmann AC digital loco into the MS2 system.
Thanks
Jabez
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 01 February 2017 19:44:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,474
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

Have you tried Detect Loco from the MS2 menu?
The decoder should support DCC and the MS2 should be able to read the address from the decoder.
The MS1 does not support DCC and may require some complicated steps.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline franciscohg  
#3 Posted : 01 February 2017 19:55:51(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,165
Location: Patagonia
A quick search shows that the decoder support MM2, just use the find menu on the MS2
Or manually add a loco with adress 3 ( usually the default, check the manual ) and then change it
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline mike c  
#4 Posted : 01 February 2017 20:39:40(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,316
Location: Montreal, QC
The Fleischmann site simply mentions Motorola as decoder type. It does not mention DCC.
I would presume that it is set to 03 as the preset address, so that would be my first attempt.

https://www.fleischmann....t/2/de/394673_203502.pdf
The exploded view diagram lists the Sound decoder 68404673 but there is no image

I could not find a pdf of the instructions/decoder manual, which usually accompanies models from Roco/Fleischmann

Regards

Mike C
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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 01 February 2017 21:40:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
It does not mention DCC.
The 39xxxx numbers came after Roco took over. I bet all Fleischmann AC locos made since then also support DCC.
The information in the product databases from Roco and Fleischmann is not really useful when it comes to information about decoders.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Jabez  
#6 Posted : 02 February 2017 00:31:47(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 553
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
The Fleischmann site simply mentions Motorola as decoder type. It does not mention DCC.
I would presume that it is set to 03 as the preset address, so that would be my first attempt.

https://www.fleischmann....t/2/de/394673_203502.pdf
The exploded view diagram lists the Sound decoder 68404673 but there is no image

I could not find a pdf of the instructions/decoder manual, which usually accompanies models from Roco/Fleischmann

Regards

Mike C

The Fleischmann booklet 'Operating Instructions for Vehicles with the Sound Digital decoder' which came with the loco in question has a section '6.2 Programming with Maerklin Mobile Station' which states
The database of the Maerklin Mobile Station contains only Maerklin locos. To attach Fleischmann locos to the database please use either one of the universal numbers 36330 or 37962. Follow the next steps to set them up....
But the Maerklin MS2 instruction booklet has nothing to say about 'universal numbers' and e.g. the number 36330 appears to represent a Maerklin electric loco.
This is one of the reasons why I am baffled by the written instructions.
Jabez
PS The Fleischmann booklet referred to above states 'The loco is primarily designed to use on digital DCC/motorola layouts.'
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
Offline franciscohg  
#7 Posted : 02 February 2017 01:21:59(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,165
Location: Patagonia
Voila, i think your booklet refers to a MS1, that was the way to register IIRC.
Navigate trough the menus in your MS2 to find the "find" option, or just add it manually with the default adress
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline mike c  
#8 Posted : 02 February 2017 03:10:00(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,316
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
The Fleischmann booklet 'Operating Instructions for Vehicles with the Sound Digital decoder' which came with the loco in question has a section '6.2 Programming with Maerklin Mobile Station' which states
The database of the Maerklin Mobile Station contains only Maerklin locos. To attach Fleischmann locos to the database please use either one of the universal numbers 36330 or 37962. Follow the next steps to set them up....
But the Maerklin MS2 instruction booklet has nothing to say about 'universal numbers' and e.g. the number 36330 appears to represent a Maerklin electric loco.
This is one of the reasons why I am baffled by the written instructions.
Jabez
PS The Fleischmann booklet referred to above states 'The loco is primarily designed to use on digital DCC/motorola layouts.'


This is a relatively easy part to explain. The Maerklin 36330, the SBB Ee 3/3 shunter, is a pretty basic model with limited functions, so the presets for that locomotive in the MS2 are good to use a base for setting up a new locomotive. Once you have selected the 36330, you will have to set the address to 03 so that your Fleischmann or Roco locomotive responds to it. You can then select a new address, new locomotive symbol and then add the functions for the lights/sounds one at a time. Once done, you save that information into your database and the MS2 should remember that locomotive when it identifies it on the track.

Personally, I have put the lok on the programming track, always gone to manual registration, select location 03. Once the lok responded to the controller, I would then choose a new address. Once that was done, I would choose DCC or mfx (as the case may be), a lok symbol, set up the function controls and then save that to one of the ten locations on my MS2. Once that was done, it could be edited or moved into the database.

You can also put the locomotive on the programming track and instruct the MS2 to "find" the lok. This can be problematic if you already have loks in the database at address 03.

Regards

Mike C

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Offline franciscohg  
#9 Posted : 02 February 2017 03:37:05(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,165
Location: Patagonia
I must insist that the procedure of your booklet refers to a MS1, wich has an ESC button. I remember to have used such procedure with non mfx and non in the database locos, for early decoders also repeatdly pushing of the control knob where necessary to acces programing CV, ie PD-101, that i have used a lot on those days.

UserPostedImage

Just forget it and add it manually or use the find function.
To do that, with your loco on the track, on the MS2 push shift+loco icon button to get to the new loco page. Then use the right side buttons to navigate, it should appear From database, Enter manually and Find. With the left buttons select the one on the side of your desired option ( i recomend manually ), you will access the page with options MM2 switches, MM2 programmable and DCC, navigate and select options the same way, ie DCC, you will get a page with a (-) on the left and (+) on the right, use them to select the desired adress ie 3. Under the (+) you will see a check symbol, push it, you will get to the page of loco name.
If that dont work, your loco has other than 3 default adress, or does not support DCC, try it again with MM2 programmable option. If that dont work, your adress is other than default, or it is not 3.
Use the find option, i had erratic results with that option in the past with DCC locos...
Hope that helps
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 02 February 2017 08:22:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,474
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
The Maerklin 36330, the SBB Ee 3/3 shunter, is a pretty basic model with limited functions
The point is that 36330 was amongst the first Märklin models with an ESU decoder.
Select 36330 and the MS will deal with a programmable decoder (no DIP switches). Most other (older) entries in the database are for locos with DIP switches and programming will not work.

You should get the same effect by selecting "MM programmable" on the MS2.
But with an MS2, you can also use DCC to get even more options.

Programming for DCC is standardised by the NMRA, programming for MM was "standardised" by ESU and copied by Märklin and Zimo - but will it really work when a Märklin controller tries to program a Zimo decoder?
Worth a try - but I'd try DCC first.

It is a sound loco, isn't it?
DCC will give you access to 16 functions (implementation restriction of the MS2), while MM will give you 5 functions (protocol restriction).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Jabez  
#11 Posted : 02 February 2017 17:16:52(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 553
Location: Brussels
thank you all for your helpful suggestions.
The Find Loco command on the MS2 did the trick.
Duh, you may say, why didn't he try that at first. My explanation, or excuse, is that I had it fixed in my mind that since the MS2 database carries only Marklin locos, it would be pointless to even try to find another mnfr's loco with that command, so I didn't.
The moral I draw from this is threefold:
1.Don't blindly believe what you think the book says.
2.Whatever it says, remember you may have misunderstood it.
3.If stuck, then the Marklin user net community is your friend.

Franciscohg is correct. The Mobile Station that the Fleischmann booklet refers to must be the MS1. Hence the apparently confusing references to buttons and commands that are not there on the MS2. Clearly third-party mnfrs of Marklin compatible locos cannot update their instructions every time Marklin updates its controllers. So it is wise to remember that the Marklin product they refer to may be of an earlier generation than the current Marklin product.

Tom: Yes, it is a sound loco. And once I got it working I noticed that only a few basic functions were available. I will now try the DCC programming route that you suggest to get all the other functions.

thanks again to all for the help.
Jabez
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
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Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 02 February 2017 18:44:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,474
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
Clearly third-party mnfrs of Marklin compatible locos cannot update their instructions every time Marklin updates its controllers.
IMHO they assume that people know how to run DCC locos on DCC controllers - the "how to" is described in the controller manual.
It's different with the MS1 or the CU 6021 that do not support DCC.

Otherwise every loco would have to come with a thick manual, including instructions for MS1 and MS2, Intellibox and Twincenter, CS1 and CS2, ECoS and Z21, Viessmann Commander, CU 6021, Tams MC, Daisy, Fred, MultiMaus - and all those controllers I forgot in my list.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Jabez  
#13 Posted : 03 February 2017 00:45:01(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 553
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Otherwise every loco would have to come with a thick manual,

Oh, I quite agree. I was just making the general point that when a third-party loco mnfr does include some info on how to register their product with a Marklin controller, as was the case here, to avoid confusion you should bear in mind that they may be referring to an earlier model controller. A consideration that I had not taken into account until Francisco pointed this out.
Jabez

I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
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H0
Offline Jabez  
#14 Posted : 03 February 2017 23:41:31(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 553
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

You should get the same effect by selecting "MM programmable" on the MS2.
But with an MS2, you can also use DCC to get even more options.

Programming for DCC is standardised by the NMRA, programming for MM was "standardised" by ESU and copied by Märklin and Zimo - but will it really work when a Märklin controller tries to program a Zimo decoder?
Worth a try - but I'd try DCC first.

It is a sound loco, isn't it?
DCC will give you access to 16 functions (implementation restriction of the MS2), while MM will give you 5 functions (protocol restriction).


Looking more closely at the Fleischmann loco specs I see that my model, 394673 the AC version, states that the decoder mode is Motorola.
OTOH, the 404673 the DC version, states that the decoder mode is DCC.

Thus I assume that trying to programme the 39xxxx with DCC through the MS2 would not work, and the more extensive functions of DCC mode cannot be accessed via MS2.

Or am I making another false assumption?

I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 03 February 2017 23:47:16(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,474
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
Or am I making another false assumption?
In my experience, both models have the same decoder with support for MM and DCC. There is just one decoder listed in the spare parts list.
And DCC is the superior protocol.

Rule #1: Try DCC first (too late for that in this case).
Rule #2: Set a DCC address > 255 to avoid complications (never too late for that).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Jabez  
#16 Posted : 05 February 2017 01:13:04(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 553
Location: Brussels
Thanks, I'll try that route. My post was prompted by the fact that the Fleischmann documentation said specifically that the AC version decoder was Motorola while the DC version decoder was DCC. If the decoder is really bivalent I'd have expected them to make this point. Decoder Motorola/DCC
Jabez
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
Offline franciscohg  
#17 Posted : 05 February 2017 13:20:42(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,165
Location: Patagonia
Hi, Marklin controllers support DCC from around 2010 IIRC, if the documentation is prior to that, that is why they did not refer to DCC in the booklet
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline Jabez  
#18 Posted : 05 February 2017 19:42:32(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 553
Location: Brussels
Hi Francisco,
It's the Fleischmann documentation I meant. The model year is 2016.

For the DC model it states:
404673 - Steam locomotive pr. T 10, K.P.E.V. Decoder mode DCC
For the AC model it states:
394673 - Steam locomotive pr. T 10. K.P.E.V. Decoder mode Motorola

I have not yet checked to see if both protocols are supported by the loco decoder despite what they say.
Jabez
I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
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Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 05 February 2017 20:23:32(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,474
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
For the DC model it states:
404673 - Steam locomotive pr. T 10, K.P.E.V. Decoder mode DCC
For the AC model it states:
394673 - Steam locomotive pr. T 10. K.P.E.V. Decoder mode Motorola

I have not yet checked to see if both protocols are supported by the loco decoder despite what they say.
Both explosion diagrams show the same decoder number 68404673.
You can run the "DC" model with AC or MM protocol, you can run the "AC" version with DC or DCC protocol.

Maybe they are afraid to confuse people by stating DCC/MM for the two-rail version and the three-rail version.
The fewer promises they make in the product description, the easier it is for them to switch the decoder supplier.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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