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Offline Minok  
#1 Posted : 14 January 2017 00:01:46(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,182
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
So seeing the new m83 (60832) and m84 (60842) are on the 2017 new stuff catalog (in black plastic and maybe that's the only change).

I'm trying to wrap my head around what the use cases are for one vs the other.

But first, they can be powered via track power (via the red/brown screw terminals) or via a switching power supply but only via a 60822 universal supply unit.
Can someone clarify WHY the design could not be to allow the switching power supply (eg 66360 (240v) or 66365 (120v)) to directly power the two decoders?
What is it that this additionally needed 60822 does (given that for each non-daisy-chained (of several m8x decoders) deployed group, one would need a separate switching power supply and 60822 ) ?

so the m83 - it appears to be all solid state internals, with IFF used in DCC mode, allow for not only controlling turnouts, but also for several switching/lighting effects: a dimmer, blinking lights, strobe lights, random lighting (eg welding simulation), simulated fluorescent lights and some others, as well as a soft on/off light and special blinking light patterns. So good for controlling some lighting around the layout.

But I expect, as its all solid state, that when the power is cycled, the entire outputs return to a 'default' state, which means in a computer controlled environment, if your computer program doesn't seek the same default state, it would be out of sync with the states of the m83. [did I get that right?]


While the m84 has bi-stable relays, which mean on power loss, this system retains the state and thus comes up in the same state it was when power went out (which means the controlling software also has to remember that things don't reset I suppose). But as they are relays, there is galvanic isolation between the 8 relay outside contacts, and the control electrics.
Additionally one has input contacts to allow switching of the relays via external mechanical buttons or contacts, so if using a control panel or similar system to switch turnouts, I suppose.
And it has the outputs to directly connect signals to it, as well as stop sections of track.
But doesn't have the 'effects' programming ability.


So is it a valid categorization to say
1) m83 is designed to control scenery lighting effects and turnouts
2) m84 is designed to control motors, track signals (and is this targeted at Märklin Hobby line of signals?), interface with keypads and reed contact inputs


Maybe its all clarified in the new book 03092 on digital operations with the CS3 to be seen later this year (now that I just purchase the prior version (which I knew would happen)....
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
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User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#2 Posted : 14 January 2017 06:08:26(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
In the news catalog it stand support mfx and can update.
Seems an new software.
You can now update mobil station to version 2.7 from the CS3.
Someone did said mobil station present symbols of signals/turnouts.
I haven´t seen it yet.
With CS3 you will maybe see m83 and m84 in the screen with code numbers.
Offline dennisb  
#3 Posted : 14 January 2017 08:00:05(UTC)
dennisb

Sweden   
Joined: 21/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 217
Location: Kronoberg
If I understand it right mfx is the new thing, like Goofy is writing. For me that have a huge potential. If we don't have to worry about addresses for turnouts and accessories anymore that would be a huge improvement in usability. Connect the turnouts to the M83, name it, and just use it. Would be very nice!

D.
Offline clapcott  
#4 Posted : 14 January 2017 10:03:01(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,378
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
===============
Re: Differences
mFX - CONFIGURATION only, ie, mfx may be used to configure the device but it still uses DCC or MM in actual operation.

There is nothing new here that the 764xx signals have already failed to deliver on.
The CS2 and CS3 ability to support this is (IMHO) shocking and needs to be improved first.

You are currently better off just using the switches to set the address, and a MS2 to configure (DCC CVs)

===============
Re: Why 60822
In summary , No, no-one has been able to satisfactorily clarify WHY. The unit works quite happily without the 60822. The 60822 was shipped missing half its originally marketed capability and doesn't really work well anyway.

Marketing have missed the boat by not offering a 60823 (Black version of the 60822)

===============
Re: also for several switching/lighting effects:


Yawn, nothing new here.

I might get enthusiastic if the function could be turned ON or OFF specifically, rather than just toggle

===============
Re: State persistence
Sort of,

After a power cycle, all outputs are off.

If your computer program can detect that a power outage has occurred and has been keeping track of all the toggles, then it might be able to reconstruct and reapply the state as it was before the power off,

===============
Re: m84 = has bi-stable relays,

It does NOT have bi-stable relays.

With an external power source it may simulate bi-stable operation in the event of a track-only power off (e.g. short). But if that power is removed - i.e. layout is powered off for the night - the relays turn off

===============
Re: Categorisation
No. You are being far to specific.


===============
Re: clarification in the new book 03092
Highly unlikely , based on past experience



P.S. the 60831 is "theoretically" software upgrade able. and may eventually be able to operate as the 60832 is currently advertised.
The big issue is that a method for doing the upgrade has yet to be provided and with all the other issues with the CS2 and CS3 firmware , I cannot see this being a high priority.
If pushed, Maerklin will probably opt for the "send it back to the service centre" approach.
Peter
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Offline Minok  
#5 Posted : 15 January 2017 05:36:16(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,182
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

===============
Re: Categorisation
No. You are being far to specific.


Ok so then I still don't have any idea when the m83 vs m84 should be chosen. Can someone who knows clarify?


And did I read that right that they can/are both powered just fine directly from a DC power supply and the intermediate part 60822 is not needed?

Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline clapcott  
#6 Posted : 15 January 2017 10:24:15(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,378
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

===============
Re: Categorisation
No. You are being far to specific.

Ok so then I still don't have any idea when the m83 vs m84 should be chosen. Can someone who knows clarify?

For reference we have to start somewhere ...
m83 60831 = medienpdb.maerklin.de/product_files/1/pdf/60831_betrieb.pdf
m84 60841 = medienpdb.maerklin.de/product_files/1/pdf/60841_betrieb.pdf

and from the Marketing hype .. 2017 New Items page 136
60832 m83 Decoder
#1 - This is a receiver for switching turnouts, signals and uncoupler tracks
.. and ..
#2 - A 60821 accessory set is required per pair of outputs for motor drives
.. and ..
#3 - the m83 has 8 outputs that may be controlled on pairs or separately


and

60842 m84 Decoder
#4 - This is a receiver for for turning on/off continuous current ...
.. and ..
#5 - The m84 has 8 relays in 4 galvanically isolated groups for switching users
-- and ..
#6 - ... the m84 has 8 inputs for manually switching the relays

.. and ..
#7 - (similar to a 7244)



Explaination/Limitations

see also https://www.marklin-users.net/forum/posts/t28608-m83-60831-m84-60841---60821-60822-----light-reading

#1,
- This is the prime design objective of the m83 - and is a replacement for the k83
- the reference to turnouts and signals is making the assumption that the turnouts are pulse driven. This is, indeed, common in the Marklin product range, but is not exclusive (e.g. hobby range) and if you have units that need continuous power, an external relay or m84 might be the required option
- for uncoupling, UNLIKE the k83 the m83 does not hold a port energised while the fingure holds the controller button down. the time duration is set within the m83. although holding the button down will cause pulses of activity - which is sometimes desirable - most operations I am aware of prefer the Relex mode where a relay (k84) is used to turn the uncoupler on while the train moves over the ramp and then turns it off afterwards.
#2
- This is a "Me too" wanabe , but it is a valid option for motor control. Although the power comes from within the unit!
- It has a very specific and limited usability in the Marklin world - The only init I am aware of is the 1-Guage Hubner rebranded turnout motor
- the grammar is wrong - the 60821 does provide 4 units - so one 60821 kit has the necessary hardware for all 4 port pairs
https://www.marklin-user...light-reading#post469234
#3
- note: you may configure ports and port pairs individually within the same m83
(e.g. 1(pr)=60821 motor, 1(pr)=7039 signal, 1(pr)=74491 turnout motor, 2(individual light circuits)
- further, the configuration does allow for more complex interaction of the ports - e.g. one button switching of 3Way turnouts and Double slips


#4
- This is the prime design objective of the m84 - and is a simulated replacement for the k84 (as already mentioned the m84 is NOT latching)
#5
- This is correct. each port pair is created by two DPST relays to appear, by default, as DPDTs with a common common. They may be switch individually but the common remains the same.
- One pair of poles is used for the "continuous current" switching of the users choice - e.g. DC, AC, Track Digital, Sound to speakers
- The 2nd pair of poles is used internally to provide a solution for the LED circuits of the Hobby range of signals - the brightness may be controlled (per whole m84 = CV39)
#6
- Aimed at the hobby , Non digital use of the m84 box.
- beware that these inputs must be pulse driven (e.g. (Mom)-Off-(Mom) ) - using a fixed switch (e.g. On-Off-On) causes problems
(I used to be optimistic that a "update" might have addressed this)
#7
- not a very good analogy really. the 7244 is a single 4PDT (one control pair address). I suggest you ignore


FWIW,
my recommendation to anyone who asks about a k84/m84 is to use a "k83/m83 plus external latching relay" instead.
Note, the k83 provided a -22V regulated pedestal voltage, while the m83 has a stabalised 16V. - i.e. a 24V relay would work with the k83 but not the m83.

Quote:
And did I read that right that they can/are both powered just fine directly from a DC power supply and the intermediate part 60822 is not needed?

Yes
- Of course the load current through the m84 relays are outside this power discussion.
- Note that the Marklin provided solutions offer 2Amp (36VA @18 volts)
- - the units themselves show "20V" on the underside
- - the specs for each m83 allow for 3Amp - go figure.

For CV programming with a MS2 you really need an external power supply as the reads usually drop a bit (bit 0). And even then do not try extensive read/writes - the m83 overheats.
Peter
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Offline Minok  
#7 Posted : 16 January 2017 20:24:54(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,182
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

60832 m83 Decoder
#1 - This is a receiver for switching turnouts, signals and uncoupler tracks
.. and ..
#2 - A 60821 accessory set is required per pair of outputs for motor drives
.. and ..
#3 - the m83 has 8 outputs that may be controlled on pairs or separately


and

60842 m84 Decoder
#4 - This is a receiver for for turning on/off continuous current ...
.. and ..
#5 - The m84 has 8 relays in 4 galvanically isolated groups for switching users
-- and ..
#6 - ... the m84 has 8 inputs for manually switching the relays

.. and ..
#7 - (similar to a 7244)[/color]




OK, clearer. If I could summarize further...
m83 is for consumers/users that require a pulse current to do the work (generally)
m84 is for consumers/users that require continuous current to work (generally)

[aside from the fact that you can drive a motor with the m83, but presumably would only do so for a pulse, albeit a loooooong pulse]



Now just to figure out what the 60822 is supposed to do/features it has.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline Minok  
#8 Posted : 16 January 2017 21:22:56(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,182
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
On the need for a 60822 for use with the m83... trying to figure this out....

So the manual for the m83 indicates the following:
m83-connections.PNG

So it has a connection socket for power supplies, but "(only in conjunction with the 60822)". And this is where I'm confused, because the manual for the 60822 indicates:

60822.PNG

that it has a socket for power supply and delivers its power to the m83 via its dsub-9 port (2a).


So if the 60822 takes power from the power supply (66361) and delivers it to the m83 via that dsub-9 port (2a), then what is the point of the power input (for 66361) on the m83 (2)?

The manual for the 60822 says nothing about what that part actually does. Nothing about functions it may have, benefits it provides; its just a box. There is the indication one could attache a digital signal from track to it via its digital power input (3) that would not be used to power the unit. But again, no text indicating what that connection would be for, why one would want to use it, what one gains.

The entire documentation of the 60822/m83 combo (via their user manuals) gives zero indication of what role that 60822 really has, other than one should use it cause we say so. And yet the m83 has a power input that one can use and thus power the m83 without the 60822.

I really struggle to think of a documentation set I've encountered to give a worse presentation of what a component is for. Is this just some big Märklin joke, or does everyone but me understand this and its inside knowledge? Maybe my brain has slipped out of gear today.

The few things I can imagine one could get out of a box like the 60822 are
1) power conditioning (assuming the power out of a 66361 isn't ideal for driving some things connected to an m83)
2) monitoring of current (and reporting via the track digital connection), and over-current protection (but could the m83 not itself directly also do this?)


Digging back through the posts referenced, I did find ( https://www.marklin-user...light-reading#post428452 ) an indication that Märklin may have indicated:
"60822 will be presented with the new catalogue next month. The item itself should be available in springtime 2014.
There is no alternative to this product. It is necessary for the radio counter-countermeasures."


which suggest function
3) To prevent digital/RF noise from getting back to the AC mains supply via the power input through the 60821. So its just a filter (like a plumbing backflow preventer)?

AJCKIDS.com ( http://www.ajckids.com/t...r=Marklin&item=60822 ) says as much in their description:
"The k83/m83/m84 Universal Supply Unit is for supplying power to k83, m83, and m84 decoders from conventional Märklin transformers or from the 66361 and 66365 switched mode power packs. One Universal Supply Unit is required per group of accessory decoders (note the maximum power limit!).

It is not really a power supply, but more a give-the-FCC-a-reason-to-exist box. You still will need a power supply, and put this between the power supply and your K83/M83/M84.
"


Which if (3) is really the one and only purpose it serves, then so long as RF interference on your power isn't an issue for you, it does seem you can just skip that part (just as I don't filter the track power with the FCC mandated filter either and the world isn't collapsing).
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline Minok  
#9 Posted : 03 February 2017 18:54:00(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,182
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
I finally got an answer back to my inquiry to Märklin about the need to use the 60822 to feed the m83:
Quote:
wir empfehlen die Verwendung von 60822 aus Zulassungstechnischen Gründen.
Sie können die m83 Decoder auch direkt mit einem Schaltnetzteil versorgen,
was wir aber aus Zulassungstechnischen Gründen nicht empfehlen.


So "we recommend the usage of 60822 for technical approval reasons. You may also power the m83 directly with a power supply, but we recommend against it out of approval technical reasons."

That sounds like, its needed for FCC / RF filtering reasons, such as preventing higher frequency feedback signals to leak out of the power delivery and not for any reason that would cause an operational problem.

Just passing on what I learned from Märklin.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline Rwill  
#10 Posted : 03 February 2017 19:45:52(UTC)
Rwill

United Kingdom   
Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 669
Location: England, London
As a new user of a M84 decoder (60841) I can confirm 66361 just plugs in and powers up the unit. It will also work without a 66361 by taking power from the track. The nice thing about use with the power supply is that if you press stop on the MS2 the signals stay on. I have previously been against using the MS2 to control solenoid accessories all gets very fiddly but four simple hobby signals on the MS2 is a dream and very functional. I really couldn't see the point of waiting for the black case and Mfx compatibility especially as you can get the 60841 for a very reasonable price currently.
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Offline Henrik Schütz  
#11 Posted : 05 February 2017 11:23:56(UTC)
Henrik Schütz

Sweden   
Joined: 04/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 52
Location: Stockholms Lan, Stockholm
From german forums i've learnt that everything works without 60822 under normal conditions, just as mentioned above.

But if a shortcut appears , 60822 limits the current to avoid damage. With the power connected directly to the decoder, the decoder might break down a little bot more easily, since the full current of the power supply will run througj the decoder when shorted.

And then the warranty is useless, because you connected it without the 60822

Henrik
Offline Minok  
#12 Posted : 05 February 2017 17:52:45(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,182
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: Henrik Schütz Go to Quoted Post


But if a shortcut appears , 60822 limits the current to avoid damage. With the power connected directly to the decoder, the decoder might break down a little bot more easily, since the full current of the power supply will run througj the decoder when shorted.

Henrik


Interesting. Wouldn't it be less expensive and more useful to just put the right sized fuses inline with each decoder output?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline river6109  
#13 Posted : 06 February 2017 03:05:14(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,278
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Henrik Schütz Go to Quoted Post


But if a shortcut appears , 60822 limits the current to avoid damage. With the power connected directly to the decoder, the decoder might break down a little bot more easily, since the full current of the power supply will run througj the decoder when shorted.

Henrik


Interesting. Wouldn't it be less expensive and more useful to just put the right sized fuses inline with each decoder output?



Must be an after thought, may be they've forgot to put them in in the first place and now you have to have another unit, reminds me very much of Märklin especially when they've switched from Motorola to the new system and introduced modules to combine the 2 systems.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline ixldoc  
#14 Posted : 06 February 2017 06:37:07(UTC)
ixldoc

Australia   
Joined: 18/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 215
Location: Brisbane,Australia
I have followed this with interest.
It appears the 60822 serves as an RF eliminator ( something Europe is very hot on) but also as Henrik has reported as a current limiter should a short occur somewhere in the power supply to the decoder. ( presumably then the red LED lights up).
It would seem sensible to use the item, except for a couple of decisions.
How likely is a short to occur on the layout ( which comes down to individual wiring and expertise etc),
BUT also how much does a 60882 cost. If not too expensive then probably best to use one.
Power supplies with current limiting are fairly easy to obtain now and are quite cheap.
Regards,
Howard.
Offline Henrik Schütz  
#15 Posted : 08 February 2017 11:51:55(UTC)
Henrik Schütz

Sweden   
Joined: 04/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 52
Location: Stockholms Lan, Stockholm
The built in fuse, self resetting, switches of at 1,8A, bacically what the recommended power supply delivers.

The real danger would be to use another supply , delivering for example 5A, vithout fusing it.

The fuse might easily be incorpoeated in the cord betven the power supply and the decoder.

Henrik

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