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Offline dickinsonj  
#1 Posted : 27 November 2016 15:08:47(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
I am still running a temporary layout, but it has now grown large enough to require a bus for good power distribution. Last year I bought 500 feet of larger gauge wire which will make a great power bus on my permanent layout, but it won't fit under my C track. For a temporary bus I am considering wire of 14 AWG (1.6 mm diameter), 16 AWG (1.3 mm diameter) or 18 AWG (1.0 mm diameter). I get the best price by ordering in 500 foot lengths and I really don't want another 500 feet of wire too large to hide under my track.

Does anyone have experience with fitting a gauge as large as 14 AWG under C track? The tightest area is at the junction of the track sections, where the wire needs to pass through the area where the track connectors are. I'm pretty sure that the 18 AWG wire will fit comfortably but I am not sure that it is large enough to do the job. Confused

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline DaleSchultz  
#2 Posted : 27 November 2016 17:41:07(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
well, if running smaller wires in the meantime, you could run more than one... just a thought. Or run a heavy one to some locations and then small ones from those points.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline dickinsonj  
#3 Posted : 27 November 2016 18:18:55(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
well, if running smaller wires in the meantime, you could run more than one... just a thought. Or run a heavy one to some locations and then small ones from those points.
I'm hoping to run just one continuous loop under each mainline, attaching spade connectors to tie that into the track every 2 meters or so. That seems to give me the best chance of a clean power supply everywhere while I am still in carpet bahn land. My mainlines are about 16 meters long and although things worked OK last year I had some overloads and shutdowns, as well as a few unresponsive areas, which I attribute to the long mainlines without a power bus.

So I assume that any power bus will be a big improvement over that situation. For now it will have to be limited to the largest gauge wire that can sit comfortably under my C track.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 27 November 2016 19:08:49(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
My mainlines are about 16 meters long and although things worked OK last year I had some overloads and shutdowns, as well as a few unresponsive areas, which I attribute to the long mainlines without a power bus.
Insufficient feeder wires do not lead to overloads and do not cause shutdowns of the controller.
Unresponsive areas could be the result of insufficient feeder wires.

Make sure you do not have any "analogue" feeder wires with 74046 when running digital. The 74046 can lead to overloads and unresponsive locos.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline nitramretep  
#5 Posted : 28 November 2016 03:06:07(UTC)
nitramretep

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: lower hudson valley, ny
18AWG wire is probably the best to prevent voltage drops. The twisted conductors type (not solid). The trouble is that 18AWG with a standard PVC jacket, in addition to the wire insulation is about 11/64 of an inch in thickness. That diameter precludes installation under C track for certain. I have used the 18AWG as a buss wire to various locations on the layout and then fed out with the heaviest Brawa wire to go under the C track. In that configuration you should experience negligible voltage drops (AC power is much more able to travel greater distances than DC). You can obtain the wire from a local Electrical Supply House (not Home Despot!) The marking on the wire I used: ROHS CMR CL03/15. You may have to buy a minimum of 200'
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Offline dickinsonj  
#6 Posted : 28 November 2016 13:56:16(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: nitramretep Go to Quoted Post
18AWG wire is probably the best to prevent voltage drops. I have used the 18AWG as a buss wire to various locations on the layout and then fed out with the heaviest Brawa wire to go under the C track.

A friend suggested a larger diameter wire (I have 500' of 12 AWG in a jacket on hand already) laid alongside the track, with smaller feeder wires where I make the connections. I think that definitely works from a technical perspective, but I don't know if I can handle all of that wire laying around. Plus then I have to cut out a lot of track just to allow the wires to run under it. Then when I have a permanent layout I will have a lot of ugly holes in the base of my track. This is why I just gave up and ran it last year without a bus!

I can get 18 AWG twin wire strands, which can be separated, pretty much like the newer Märklin feeder wire sets that Tom refers to. I think that might fit under the track but I am not 100% sure. The junctions between track sections being the tightest spots to run the wire through. What I really need is a permanent layout, but unfortunately that is still several years away.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline Danlake  
#7 Posted : 28 November 2016 19:33:00(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Hi Jim,

As fas as I know the C-track was never designed to have a wire running continually under all the tracks, so yes it would be very difficult to pass the track connection areas without doing some modification.

You say you are having a temporary layout but expect it to have like this for several years. So thinking outside the box is there any way you could place your track on some sort of base board? Is it a carpet Bahn you have? Maybe a few photos and some may have some good ideas?

Power bus does not need to be thick wire gauge, some also uses a thin copper tape and solder feeder wire onto that.

Else I would just bite the bullet, and see if you could survive with 4-5 feedtrack only and just run these thin wires independtly back to the central station, instead of doing the power bus.

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline dickinsonj  
#8 Posted : 29 November 2016 00:57:49(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Hi Jim,

As fas as I know the C-track was never designed to have a wire running continually under all the tracks, so yes it would be very difficult to pass the track connection areas without doing some modification.

You say you are having a temporary layout but expect it to have like this for several years. So thinking outside the box is there any way you could place your track on some sort of base board? Is it a carpet Bahn you have? Maybe a few photos and some may have some good ideas?

Power bus does not need to be thick wire gauge, some also uses a thin copper tape and solder feeder wire onto that.

Else I would just bite the bullet, and see if you could survive with 4-5 feedtrack only and just run these thin wires independtly back to the central station, instead of doing the power bus.

Brgds Lasse

Thanks for the input and all of the good ideas!

No, C track was clearly never designed for this, although there is enough room under most of the track for wiring to lay. If there were more room in the track junctions then it would be pretty easy. Considering how well C track works in temporary layouts that seems like an oversight on Märklin's part.

The best solution seems to be laying the wiring bus alongside the track and I have seen other people who have done that. But I don't want all of those wires lying around and I don't want to cut access holes in so many pieces of track.

It is indeed a carpet bahn, but in my case it runs on a hardwood floor. It is still all packed away right now, so I can't provide any pictures. I should start getting things back out in about a month or so and I am very eager to get going. I like nice long track runs and it is not really practical to make that much base board for my temporary layout, although that would solve many problems. I guess I should reconsider that option, although it would all be wasted in 2-3 years when I start a real layout. The thin copper tape is an interesting idea - I will have to give that some thought.

Considering the length of my lines it all worked pretty well last year and one option is to just accept not having perfect power distribution until the time comes for me to have a permanent layout. I guess I moved past the point where a carpet bahn made much sense before I realized all of the implications!

When I come up with a solution I will post what I did and how it turned out - even if it is just to plug it all together and hope! BigGrin

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline sgtb  
#9 Posted : 29 November 2016 02:11:59(UTC)
sgtb

United States   
Joined: 21/04/2014(UTC)
Posts: 27
Location: Central Ohio
Hi Jim.
Ever thought about making module sections. I did this with my american set, just put sections together play and put away nothing fancy.
I mostly do this when family comes over and it keeps them from touching my marklin layout.BigGrin

Let me know when your ready, I can come down and help on the big layout.
Bob
Offline dickinsonj  
#10 Posted : 29 November 2016 03:06:22(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: sgtb Go to Quoted Post
Hi Jim.
Ever thought about making module sections. I did this with my american set, just put sections together play and put away nothing fancy.
I mostly do this when family comes over and it keeps them from touching my marklin layout.BigGrin

Let me know when your ready, I can come down and help on the big layout.
Bob

Hey Bob - good to hear from you and thanks for the offer to help. Not sure when my big layout will happen but I know that I will need lots of ideas and help if I can find them!

When I made that last post I remembered you telling me about your modular layout and that made me think about doing that again. I need to look at the space and how much material it would take. All I really need at this point is something to tie things together and allow me to do some decent wiring. I might throw together my carpet bahn, make some final decisions on what track I will be using and then look at making modules to hold it all. I was hoping to save that effort for when I build my real layout but I definitely need something better to run my trains on until then.

I spent the summer ripping out the floors in my house and putting down new subfloors, so my plywood skills are all sharpened up. BigGrin

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dickinsonj
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