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Offline Drongo  
#1 Posted : 08 September 2016 15:16:47(UTC)
Drongo

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Posts: 1,121
Location: Sydney, NSW
My measurement car - Marklin 49960 has recently been giving me incorrect measurements. I'm only using the car to measure the length of tracks. I conducted a test program and in summary I came up with these results.

All the distances were short by 86 to 87% e.g. 80cm measured by a tape, showed 69cm on the car; and 110cm showed 96cm on the car.

Does anyone know why this is occurring and is there a solution?

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Website - www.simplesite.com/gregstrain
Offline xxup  
#2 Posted : 08 September 2016 15:22:56(UTC)
xxup

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I will try it on mine tomorrow and we can compare results. Confused
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 08 September 2016 15:52:26(UTC)
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Hi, Greg!
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
Does anyone know why this is occurring and is there a solution?
Just a wild guess: maybe your measurement car has acquired "traction tyres" (accumulated dirt on the wheels) and needs some TLC and wheel cleaning.

Regards
Tom
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Offline Minok  
#4 Posted : 09 September 2016 00:45:22(UTC)
Minok

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Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
My measurement car - Marklin 49960 has recently been giving me incorrect measurements. I'm only using the car to measure the length of tracks. I conducted a test program and in summary I came up with these results.

All the distances were short by 86 to 87% e.g. 80cm measured by a tape, showed 69cm on the car; and 110cm showed 96cm on the car.

Does anyone know why this is occurring and is there a solution?

Regards
Greg


The wagon is measuring distance traveled by the basic technique of dead-reconing. It is likely (as I don't have one) relying on counting rotation of a single wheel of the cart to determine the distance traveled.

This suffers from a common problem - wheel slippage. That is the linear forward motion of the car isn't consistently translated into rotational movement on the measuring wheel.

Since the car is under reporting the distance traveled, the wheel isn't turning as much as it should be - either its not getting full traction on the rails, sticking for some reason, or there could be an issue with the way the internal electronics read the rotation from that wheel.

The computation of the distance traveled works like in cars - a wheel rotation is equal to distance of the circumference of the wheel. If the circumference used in the computation isn't the circumference of the wheel itself the computation would be wrong. Is the wheel that has the encoder on it to measure rotation larger than the software expects (eg a traction tire that swelled, or accumulation of gunk on the wheel has it cover more ground per revolution than expected, meaning for a distance traveled the wheel actually rotates around less?)(
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Offline Drongo  
#5 Posted : 09 September 2016 12:36:04(UTC)
Drongo

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Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, Greg!
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
Does anyone know why this is occurring and is there a solution?
Just a wild guess: maybe your measurement car has acquired "traction tyres" (accumulated dirt on the wheels) and needs some TLC and wheel cleaning.



I checked the wheels and they are fairly clean.

Does anyone know how the car picks up the measurement - there's a "thingy" on the axle of one wheel that has 4 flat surfaces - it rotates and must send some signal to a device that records the distance. I borrowed a car from a friend and he's is in almost new condition and I did the same test with the same results. Does this mean ALL the cars are faulty ???!!!!Crying Crying Crying
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Offline xxup  
#6 Posted : 09 September 2016 14:09:54(UTC)
xxup

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Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
... Does this mean ALL the cars are faulty ???!!!!Crying Crying Crying


It could be your tape measure.. RollEyes

These things are not meant to be precision instruments.. Anyway, I will check mine tomorrow sometime - too busy today..
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Offline Minok  
#7 Posted : 09 September 2016 20:50:10(UTC)
Minok

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Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, Greg!
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
Does anyone know why this is occurring and is there a solution?
Just a wild guess: maybe your measurement car has acquired "traction tyres" (accumulated dirt on the wheels) and needs some TLC and wheel cleaning.



I checked the wheels and they are fairly clean.

Does anyone know how the car picks up the measurement - there's a "thingy" on the axle of one wheel that has 4 flat surfaces - it rotates and must send some signal to a device that records the distance. I borrowed a car from a friend and he's is in almost new condition and I did the same test with the same results. Does this mean ALL the cars are faulty ???!!!!Crying Crying Crying


I suspect there is an optical or magnetic sensor that detects the rotation of that 4-sided feature of the one wheel. So it sounds like the wheel can detect approximately every 1/4 or 1/2 rotation of a wheel. Thus its not very accurate at very short distance.

Does the car have a setting capability to calibrate the sensor system? I'd think with metal wheels they would be closer than being off by 14% but maybe that was within the promised accuracy of the cars?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline xxup  
#8 Posted : 10 September 2016 04:47:26(UTC)
xxup

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As promised.. Measured 0.64m and actual travel was 0.65m.. Good enough for me.. Smile
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Offline Drongo  
#9 Posted : 11 September 2016 01:44:12(UTC)
Drongo

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Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
As promised.. Measured 0.64m and actual travel was 0.65m.. Good enough for me.. Smile


Thanks Adrian. How did you measure the distance? The way I measured the distances was to set the front of the wagon at the beginning of the tape measure and move the wagon to say 90cm to the front of the wagon and check the readout. It's strange that the 2 wagons I tested read identically and yours read correctly. Minok suggested to see if there was a calibration setting, however, there's nothing in the manual to suggest this. Adrian, please have a look at the wheel under the wagon that has the 4 flat sections - does each section have a silvery foil on it? Mine has the foil damaged on 2 of the sections - this might be the problem.

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Offline xxup  
#10 Posted : 11 September 2016 01:59:58(UTC)
xxup

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Location: Australia
Greg,

I will have a look later this afternoon. I am still in recovery mode from Miss17's birthday party yesterday.

Cheers,
Adrian
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Offline PJMärklin  
#11 Posted : 11 September 2016 06:31:55(UTC)
PJMärklin

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Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
Greg,

I will have a look later this afternoon. I am still in recovery mode from Miss17's birthday party yesterday.

Cheers,
Adrian


But you were hiding in the train room !!LOL LOL LOL

Best wishes for a speedy recovery!Laugh

Regards,

Philip BigGrin
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Offline xxup  
#12 Posted : 11 September 2016 09:18:55(UTC)
xxup

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Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
..But you were hiding in the train room !!LOL LOL LOL


I was, but that was after her mother and I spent all morning cleaning the house, while the party princess spent two hours in the bathroom.. And of course, I missed by afternoon nap..
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Offline xxup  
#13 Posted : 11 September 2016 09:38:01(UTC)
xxup

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Posts: 9,245
Location: Australia
Here is a photo of my 49960 sensor. All four are dull silver in colour.

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Offline Drongo  
#14 Posted : 11 September 2016 13:09:21(UTC)
Drongo

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Location: Sydney, NSW
Thanks again Adrian. Mine has only 1 with the dull silver foil - the other 3 don't. Now the question - what is this foil, how do I obtain it and how to I apply it ? Confused Confused Confused

Anyone with suggestions, please.

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Offline xxup  
#15 Posted : 11 September 2016 13:25:14(UTC)
xxup

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Posts: 9,245
Location: Australia
To be honest it looks like solder. One of the other plates sees to have a wire embedded.

Can you just buy the part?
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Offline Drongo  
#16 Posted : 11 September 2016 14:25:49(UTC)
Drongo

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Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
To be honest it looks like solder. One of the other plates sees to have a wire embedded.

Can you just buy the part?


It's a pretty old product - I think it was released in 2000 and spare parts might be a problem. I looked in the manual and there are no spare parts shown, therefore I would be able to specify the part number.

Does anyone know how this part works ?
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 11 September 2016 15:09:43(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
To be honest it looks like solder. One of the other plates sees to have a wire embedded.

Can you just buy the part?


It's a pretty old product - I think it was released in 2000 and spare parts might be a problem. I looked in the manual and there are no spare parts shown, therefore I would be able to specify the part number.

Does anyone know how this part works ?


There will be a reflective opto-sensor above the wheel, and as each of these foils go past the electronics will register a count.

To replace the pieces of foil, I would look at using cooking foil, and gluing it on with either double sided sellotape or cynoacrylite 'instant glue'. Either way will be a messy and fiddly job, but needs must.

Actually thinking about the application process, I think I would wind one piece of foil around the axle with glue under it, then after the glue has set use a scalpel, and slice along the edges of the flat pieces then peel off the bits you don't want.

Of course, the way Marklin will have done it is to use foil tape that already has glue on one side.
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Offline Drongo  
#18 Posted : 12 September 2016 08:23:33(UTC)
Drongo

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Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
To be honest it looks like solder. One of the other plates sees to have a wire embedded.

Can you just buy the part?


It's a pretty old product - I think it was released in 2000 and spare parts might be a problem. I looked in the manual and there are no spare parts shown, therefore I would be able to specify the part number.

Does anyone know how this part works ?


There will be a reflective opto-sensor above the wheel, and as each of these foils go past the electronics will register a count.

To replace the pieces of foil, I would look at using cooking foil, and gluing it on with either double sided sellotape or cynoacrylite 'instant glue'. Either way will be a messy and fiddly job, but needs must.

Actually thinking about the application process, I think I would wind one piece of foil around the axle with glue under it, then after the glue has set use a scalpel, and slice along the edges of the flat pieces then peel off the bits you don't want.

Of course, the way Marklin will have done it is to use foil tape that already has glue on one side.


Thanks KiwiAlan - I've googled silver foil and found that JayCars sell it in 50metre rolls for about $12.00 - it's 0.04 mm thick x 25mm wide with adhesive on one side. I'm off to the store to get some and I hope it does the trick. BigGrin

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Website - www.simplesite.com/gregstrain
Offline Ross  
#19 Posted : 12 September 2016 09:20:18(UTC)
Ross

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Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 786
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Greg,

The three items are magnets and the silver coating is some sort of protective coating.

On my measurement car there isn't any silver coating left.

I have just tested mine over a 2 metre distance and the results on the readout is spot on.

If the measurement is coming up short I would say the wheel isn't rotating enough and you are getting the wheel to slide on the track.

Check the axle lubrication and also that the ground collector spring hasn't too much tension on the axle.

PS. There are only 3 magnets.

Edited by user 13 September 2016 02:56:59(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Ross
Offline Drongo  
#20 Posted : 12 September 2016 14:48:03(UTC)
Drongo

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Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post
Hi Greg,

The four items are magnets and the silver coating is some sort of protective coating.

On my measurement car there isn't any silver coating left.

I have just tested mine over a 2 metre distance and the results on the readout is spot on.

If the measurement is coming up short I would say the wheel isn't rotating enough and you are getting the wheel to slide on the track.

Check the axle lubrication and also that the ground collector spring hasn't too much tension on the axle.



Hi Ross,

I checked the wheel movement and it's ok and the spring is good. I have 2 of these cars and both give me the same incorrect lengths. Also, the measurements are consistent, however, incorrect, so the wheel must be rotation correctly.

Any other thoughts?

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Website - www.simplesite.com/gregstrain
Offline Moritz-BR365  
#21 Posted : 12 September 2016 15:00:27(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

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Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
All the distances were short by 86 to 87% e.g. 80cm measured by a tape, showed 69cm on the car; and 110cm showed 96cm on the car.

You know, that You cab switch between measuring real length (in cm) or converted to Model length (in Kilometer).

When You say, the value is 69cm instead of 80cm and the difference is always around 87%, You may switch to the other measurement?


UserPostedImage

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https://www.marklin-user...sion-to-DCC-Decoder.aspx

Distance Measure

F1 = ON
F2 = OFF
F3 = OFF
F4 = OFF

Measure in km (Vorbild)

UserPostedImage
F1 = ON
F2 = OFF
F3 = ON
F4 = OFF

Measure in m (Modell)

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Offline steventrain  
#22 Posted : 12 September 2016 21:52:49(UTC)
steventrain

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Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post


80cm measured by a tape, showed 69cm on the car; and 110cm showed 96cm on the car.

Regards
Greg


Mine have 49960 show under 101cm on 100cm tape as I got new parts wheels with sensor/magnet from NL dealer six years ago but sadly out of business.

I think part number 211488
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline xxup  
#23 Posted : 12 September 2016 23:33:07(UTC)
xxup

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Offline Minok  
#24 Posted : 12 September 2016 23:45:54(UTC)
Minok

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Posts: 2,219
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: Moritz-BR365 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
All the distances were short by 86 to 87% e.g. 80cm measured by a tape, showed 69cm on the car; and 110cm showed 96cm on the car.

You know, that You cab switch between measuring real length (in cm) or converted to Model length (in Kilometer).

When You say, the value is 69cm instead of 80cm and the difference is always around 87%, You may switch to the other measurement?


This may be the solution, right? From what you described you were getting a reading that was 86% of the measured distance. H0 scale is 1:87.0857142.

100cm traveled is 87.08m traveled at 1:1 scale.....

So the wheel encoder could be magnetic or optical rotation sensing ... (don't have one of the cars), but the setting of what the display shows... seems like a prime candidate.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline xxup  
#25 Posted : 13 September 2016 00:43:20(UTC)
xxup

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Posts: 9,245
Location: Australia
BTW my dealer reports that the part is still available from Marklin - I have ordered two of them. Smile
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Offline Ross  
#26 Posted : 13 September 2016 03:24:46(UTC)
Ross

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Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Greg,

I corrected my count of the magnets = 3

As Minok mentioned, F1 + F3 on = m. F4 on is the freeze reading and F4 off is the reset to zero
F1 on only = km

Marklin refer to the 'm' setting as model and 'km' as prototype

Using a large distance of 2 metre I measure 2.000 on the readout and if I switch to km it shows 0.173 over the 2 metre distance.

If you lay the car on its roof and apply track power to the car with clips then position one of the magnets to be facing up. Next set F1 + F3 + F4 on. Now switch F4 off then rotate the wheel so the original magnet returns to the upward position the readout will/should show 3.

If you do a speed test using a well profiled loco in TC the readout on the car should show the same km/h.

With out seeing the car I can't think of any further tests at the moment.

Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post

Hi Ross,

I checked the wheel movement and it's ok and the spring is good. I have 2 of these cars and both give me the same incorrect lengths. Also, the measurements are consistent, however, incorrect, so the wheel must be rotation correctly.

Any other thoughts?

Regards
Greg


Ross
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Offline Drongo  
#27 Posted : 13 September 2016 14:47:21(UTC)
Drongo

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Posts: 1,121
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Fellas,

I sat down, took a deep breath and read the manual. Funny what you learn when you carefully read the manual. This time I had F1 & F3 turned on and I got the correct reading.

Hence the name DRONGO LOL LOL LOL (Google has a good definition for this Australian slang word)

Thanks for all your help, regards

Greg
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Offline Moritz-BR365  
#28 Posted : 13 September 2016 15:03:29(UTC)
Moritz-BR365

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Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
I sat down, took a deep breath and read the manual. Funny what you learn when you carefully read the manual. This time I had F1 & F3 turned on and I got the correct reading.


Hi Greg,
like I supposed, as You wrote it's exactly 87% less then the real measurementLaugh

Regards,
Moritz

Offline Ross  
#29 Posted : 14 September 2016 00:58:06(UTC)
Ross

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Posts: 786
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Greg,

Please read http://members.ozemail.com.au/~...ar_TrainWindow_icons.pdf

I thought I had supplied the measurement car '*.yrl" file to you but if I haven't you will be able to download it from the article.

It explains how I set up the controls for the measurement cars to be used with TrainController.


Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
Hi Fellas,

I sat down, took a deep breath and read the manual. Funny what you learn when you carefully read the manual. This time I had F1 & F3 turned on and I got the correct reading.

Hence the name DRONGO LOL LOL LOL (Google has a good definition for this Australian slang word)

Thanks for all your help, regards

Greg


Ross
Offline ocram63_uk  
#30 Posted : 13 October 2021 10:30:56(UTC)
ocram63_uk

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Location: England, Suffolk
resurrecting this old post :-)

From the Marklin website I downloaded the booklet of this coach but it says that the only things that can be controlled digitally are the pantograhps.
In this post you folks mention that the 49960 can measure track lenght, assuming it is set correctly, what about scale speed ?
Is the user manual detailed on how configure the decoder to get the info one wants ?
There is no mention of what it can be used for in the user manual.
Thank you. Marco
Offline ocram63_uk  
#31 Posted : 25 October 2021 20:02:13(UTC)
ocram63_uk

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I bought this car for £70
It is in perfect conditions but .... this is what I found out using the EcoS

1) contrary to what is written in the manual the pantograph is dead and there are no current conducting couplers. No way to check if it is at all connected due to item 5) below;
2) the address I had to set is 75, not really immediate to detect. Plus not having a motor, or otherwise a load, it can't detect the address;
3) the decoder has to be set to Motorola Fx 14 otherwise it doesn't react to any of the F buttons;
4) speed detection is a bit erratic. The speedometer car I made myself was more consitent and precise for a fracton of the price :-)
5) the instructions say that opening the carriage is 'easy'. The heck it is!!! I managed to get the two door frames off not without noticing that they do not simply pull out and that they are not inserted identically in the holes. Once they are out there is no way to remove the frame as you need another pair of hands and something to wedge betweeen the yellow frame and the chassis of the coach. Poor design;

Will have to check the wheel with the sensor when I have a bit more time though. Mine has 3 silvery sections, still.

All in all an object that at the time was probably expensive for a pointless return as it does today.
None other than a curiosity of a bygone era, the beggining of digital trains, more or less.

Offline kiwiAlan  
#32 Posted : 25 October 2021 23:33:29(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post

3) the decoder has to be set to Motorola Fx 14 otherwise it doesn't react to any of the F buttons;


This is because it is (as far as I am aware) the last item that Marklin made to use the mobile accessory address space, the same as the 4998 panorama car, the 4999 dance car, and the 2680 King Wilhelm coach lighting.

Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post

4) speed detection is a bit erratic. The speedometer car I made myself was more consitent and precise for a fracton of the price :-)
[/quote

I suspect this is more due to not averaging the speed reading but rather display each reading taken. Using a microprocessor based system (which this coach doesn't have) would make this a more steady reading covering up the glitches.

Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post

5) the instructions say that opening the carriage is 'easy'. The heck it is!!! I managed to get the two door frames off not without noticing that they do not simply pull out and that they are not inserted identically in the holes. Once they are out there is no way to remove the frame as you need another pair of hands and something to wedge betweeen the yellow frame and the chassis of the coach. Poor design;

Will have to check the wheel with the sensor when I have a bit more time though. Mine has 3 silvery sections, still.

All in all an object that at the time was probably expensive for a pointless return as it does today.
None other than a curiosity of a bygone era, the beggining of digital trains, more or less.



At the time it was quite something - don't forget it is somewhere around twenty years old, and technology has moved on a heck of a lot in that time. I suspect you would find the equivalent items such as like ESU produce which have an LCD screen will show a lot more than this coach does, and with stable readings.
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