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Offline Collector  
#1 Posted : 23 August 2016 23:08:11(UTC)
Collector


Joined: 17/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Europe
Hi All,

I have been looking around in order to determine if and how to proceed in getting back into this hobby.

So I read that this is a dying field and a shrinking market. Also see that dealers and others want to buy collections and layouts of any size for cash.

So that made me think how much do they offer, roughly relative to the new list price and who are the sellers?

Are the sellers likely to be people who quit the hobby or family who feel the need to liquidate the collection of a deceased relative?


Regards,

Mike

Needless to say I am not looking to sell but rather to buy.
DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Collector
Offline Mark_1602  
#2 Posted : 02 October 2016 11:26:17(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi Mike,

Yes, a lot of private sellers on Ebay.de are either older men who have given up the hobby or their relatives who try to get rid of the collection. In practice, that means you can't trust the descriptions. Most people overestimate the condition of the items they want to sell, and quite a few try to cheat buyers. The heirs are even worse because they usually don't have a clue. In addition to those people, there are quite a lot of model railroaders who feel the need to reduce their collections without giving up the hobby, and there are private (or professional) sellers who buy collections at low prices to make a profit; in Germany, some retired men do this to supplement their low old age pensions. On one German forum called 'Alte Modellbahnen', a lot of members seem to be that type of seller, and I can tell you from experience that some of them are pretty grumpy, unpleasant people.

Don't buy if the sellers do not show at least 5-6 XXL photos of each item and be wary of private sellers who tell you that they refuse Paypal or returns. Sellers who don't have 100 % positive feedbacks are suspicious too. In case of doubt, just wait for the next auction.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Mark_1602
Offline dominator  
#3 Posted : 02 October 2016 11:36:54(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
On the other hand, I haven't bought a dud on Trademe, the Marklin club in Wellington or anyone associated with same.
The thing is. Know what you want. Specialize in one era maybe, and go for it. Look at what things are selling for on the various web sites. Don't be afraid to "watch'. Then you will have a record of what items are selling for and you will have an appreciation for what bulk lots are worth.

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline Collector  
#4 Posted : 02 October 2016 20:22:42(UTC)
Collector


Joined: 17/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Europe
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Mike,

Yes, a lot of private sellers on Ebay.de are either older men who have given up the hobby or their relatives who try to get rid of the collection. In practice, that means you can't trust the descriptions. Most people overestimate the condition of the items they want to sell, and quite a few try to cheat buyers. The heirs are even worse because they usually don't have a clue. In addition to those people, there are quite a lot of model railroaders who feel the need to reduce their collections without giving up the hobby, and there are private (or professional) sellers who buy collections at low prices to make a profit; in Germany, some retired men do this to supplement their low old age pensions. On one German forum called 'Alte Modellbahnen', a lot of members seem to be that type of seller, and I can tell you from experience that some of them are pretty grumpy, unpleasant people.

Don't buy if the sellers do not show at least 5-6 XXL photos of each item and be wary of private sellers who tell you that they refuse Paypal or returns. Sellers who don't have 100 % positive feedbacks are suspicious too. In case of doubt, just wait for the next auction.

Best regards,
Mark


Hi Mark,

How do they try to cheat the buyers?

If they don't accept PayPal I ignore the items. The grumpy bit I already experienced.

German businesses in the past have had trouble with the format of my shipping address, so after winning two of his auctions, I asked a seller if he had any trouble with my shipping address. His reply: "why are you bidding when you have difficulties"

That said, I was very happy with the condition of the steam locomotives I received. I think he was pissed of that I won the auctions for only 190 euros for the two of them together. They were both digital and had a smoke generator built in.

I did notice that you often see "like new condition" and then you can see rust in various places when you look carefully etc..

Kind Regards,

Mike






DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
Offline Collector  
#5 Posted : 02 October 2016 20:31:42(UTC)
Collector


Joined: 17/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Europe
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
On the other hand, I haven't bought a dud on Trademe, the Marklin club in Wellington or anyone associated with same.
The thing is. Know what you want. Specialize in one era maybe, and go for it. Look at what things are selling for on the various web sites. Don't be afraid to "watch'. Then you will have a record of what items are selling for and you will have an appreciation for what bulk lots are worth.

Dereck



Hi Dereck,

I tend to look at the "sold items" on eBay to get an idea of what you can get stuff for. It usually shows that a certain percentage of the auctions are going way below the average. So if you have time you can probably save 30-35% on the average sale price on eBay. But you will probably have to "endure" 5-6 auctions before there is one where the rest of the buyers is either absent or asleep.

I have never seen bulk lots for sale.

If I see a used Marklin locomotive offered by a seller who advertises "collections of any size bought for cash" at the bottom of each item he has for sale, what is roughly the price he paid for it?

If he only offered the seller 30-40 euros for that locomotive then it is time for me to start buying "collections of any size for cash" if you see what I mean. Not to be selling them on eBay for a profit, but to save a pile of money!!


So if someone shows up with 30 locomotives which when new cost 7500 and they are in mint state because they have been in the display cabinet all their life, how much do you think these traders are offering?
DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
Offline Mark_1602  
#6 Posted : 05 October 2016 20:42:48(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: Collector Go to Quoted Post

Hi Mark,

How do they try to cheat the buyers?


Hi Mike,

Cheating is almost standard when vintage items are sold because chances that they are still mint as well as original 50 or 60 years down the road are slim to none. Most sellers simply make claims that aren't true or fake a few details to convince buyers that the old locomotives haven't been used. For example, I see a lot of locos from the late 1970s in old boxes from the 1960s, or I notice that the chassis has been substituted and was not made in the same decade as the loco. Another trick is to replace the pickup shoe to hide the fact that the loco has been used for 100 or 200 hours. Some people still have old silver (i.e. nickel-coated) spares that trick buyers into making high bids for supposedly unused vintage models. In addition, a quality control tag that was bought separately will attract higher bids as well.

I open each loco I buy and disassemble the motor because that tells me how much it's really been used. If I notice any inconsistencies about the box, the quality control tag, the pickup shoe, or parts that don't match, I know it's not original.

There's less cheating going on with digital locos, but the claim that they've never been used is usually untrue as well. A close look at the wheels, gearbox and the motor reveals that, but you can't see all of that on the photos.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Mark_1602
Offline dominator  
#7 Posted : 06 October 2016 11:34:29(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
Hi Collector.

Put it this way, Items i bought brand new around 1999-2000 are selling again for less than half the price I paid then.

Perhaps you can answer this question.

I paid $1125.00 NZ for 26730 back in 1998-2000 when it first came out. It has been set up on the kitchen table about 4 times since I have had it. "bugger all use". What is it worth now? [ I am not selling it though ]

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline Collector  
#8 Posted : 06 October 2016 21:29:19(UTC)
Collector


Joined: 17/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Europe
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
Hi Collector.

Put it this way, Items i bought brand new around 1999-2000 are selling again for less than half the price I paid then.

Perhaps you can answer this question.

I paid $1125.00 NZ for 26730 back in 1998-2000 when it first came out. It has been set up on the kitchen table about 4 times since I have had it. "bugger all use". What is it worth now? [ I am not selling it though ]

Dereck



Well, on the 29th of August one was sold on eBay.de for 345 euros condition "neu/unbespielt" so I am guessing that would be the state yours is in. Probably "bugger all use" as opposed the claimed truly new.

I just bought an analog Krokodill around that time so maybe I should have bought that one instead! But after all those years outside of the hobby, back at the end of August I ha not not yet studied the Zugpackungen and was unaware this package even existed.

I am now though. I spent a LOT of time with the Google image search and the Koll Catalog.

The question is how much did the seller on eBay pay for this and where did he find the collection he bought to sell at a profit.

DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
Offline Mark_1602  
#9 Posted : 06 October 2016 21:58:37(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: Collector Go to Quoted Post

The question is how much did the seller on eBay pay for this and where did he find the collection he bought to sell at a profit.


Every year, some people who have collected Märklin for decades pass away, and what often happens is that their children or grandchildren (if there are any) are not interested in that hobby. In Germany, where fertility rates have hovered around 1.3 children per women over a lifetime since the 1960s, the chances of passing on your train collection to the next generation are pretty slim. Sellers can easily buy whole collections at low prices because the widows or heirs are eager to get rid of those items as quickly as possible and do not know how much they're worth. Ebay sellers only pay low prices when they buy collections, so that seller might have got the set you mention for 200 or 250 euros. Nobody can tell you how much he really paid for it, though, as it was certainly bought together with a lot of other (less desirable) items.

Do you want to buy a collection like this? You just need to find the right widow and be a little charming but bargain hard ... BigGrin
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
Offline Collector  
#10 Posted : 06 October 2016 22:11:56(UTC)
Collector


Joined: 17/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Europe
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Collector Go to Quoted Post

Hi Mark,

How do they try to cheat the buyers?


Hi Mike,

Cheating is almost standard when vintage items are sold because chances that they are still mint as well as original 50 or 60 years down the road are slim to none. Most sellers simply make claims that aren't true or fake a few details to convince buyers that the old locomotives haven't been used. For example, I see a lot of locos from the late 1970s in old boxes from the 1960s, or I notice that the chassis has been substituted and was not made in the same decade as the loco. Another trick is to replace the pickup shoe to hide the fact that the loco has been used for 100 or 200 hours. Some people still have old silver (i.e. nickel-coated) spares that trick buyers into making high bids for supposedly unused vintage models. In addition, a quality control tag that was bought separately will attract higher bids as well.

I open each loco I buy and disassemble the motor because that tells me how much it's really been used. If I notice any inconsistencies about the box, the quality control tag, the pickup shoe, or parts that don't match, I know it's not original.

There's less cheating going on with digital locos, but the claim that they've never been used is usually untrue as well. A close look at the wheels, gearbox and the motor reveals that, but you can't see all of that on the photos.

Best regards,
Mark


Hi Mark,

Thanks for that insight. I guess I have been lucky so far. I have however not yet run any of the 8 locos I have so far received because I have not yet taken the time to set up the starter package I bought to test the locos.

That said I would be concentrating on and buying digital locos from around 1986 until 2003 or so. I did notice often that even there "Wie Neu" und "Top" etc were not accurate because I could spot rust on the buffers or metal ladders being bent!

I have been looking for a 3047 to convert to digital so I can leave my own from the early seventies in its original state. Most of what I saw on eBay.de for that model was not worth bidding on. Prices too high for models that would actually need a respray if you are a perfectionist like me. And I don't think I am capable of a perfect respray! Hence I started to look at the re-issue of that model they did with the old tooling in the mid eighties.


Kind Regards,

Mike
DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
Offline Collector  
#11 Posted : 06 October 2016 22:25:49(UTC)
Collector


Joined: 17/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 147
Location: Europe
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Nobody can tell you how much he really paid for it, though, as it was certainly bought together with a lot of other (less desirable) items.

Do you want to buy a collection like this? You just need to find the right widow and be a little charming but bargain hard ... BigGrin



Those shops who advertise "collections of any size bought for cash" need to have some sort of guideline in relation to the list price. While I doubt they will determine the value item by item, there must be SOME sort of guideline and I am curious as to what that would be in relation to the list price.

If they offer 40% of list I would leave this kind of buying in order to collect well alone. If the going rate for collections/bulk lots is 15-25% of list I would not mind buying collections with 30-150 locos for cash provided the models are mainly DB/DRG/SBB models.

I am far too young and far too far outside Germany to either know or find lots of "poor" old widows RollEyes Scared
DRG/DB/SBB Epoche II/III/IV
Offline kiwiAlan  
#12 Posted : 06 October 2016 22:46:04(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Collector Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Nobody can tell you how much he really paid for it, though, as it was certainly bought together with a lot of other (less desirable) items.

Do you want to buy a collection like this? You just need to find the right widow and be a little charming but bargain hard ... BigGrin



Those shops who advertise "collections of any size bought for cash" need to have some sort of guideline in relation to the list price. While I doubt they will determine the value item by item, there must be SOME sort of guideline and I am curious as to what that would be in relation to the list price.

If they offer 40% of list I would leave this kind of buying in order to collect well alone. If the going rate for collections/bulk lots is 15-25% of list I would not mind buying collections with 30-150 locos for cash provided the models are mainly DB/DRG/SBB models.

I am far too young and far too far outside Germany to either know or find lots of "poor" old widows RollEyes Scared


That is not the way it works. Often such collections are sold at auction. I have been to auctions here in the UK where there have been a number of lots that look like they have come from estates or someone downsizing because they are moving because of age and their large collection is being sold off.

I have bought some lots from these type of lots - and will have a large number of motor vehicles for sale at Nigels Houseparty in November - and when bidding thought the price was going stratospheric. But when you get the items back and unpack them, and work out the unit cost it is surprisingly cheap.

It is the same when valuing a collection, you look and figure there is around 50 locos at about so much each, so many goods wagons at such an amount each, so many coaches at another amount each, and arrive at a total, which sounds like a large amount to the seller - simply because everything is lumped together - but which actually represents a quite low value for everything. Then the person buying the collection will research actual values as they unpack it and set out to sell it on, occasionally discovering high value gems as they go.

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