Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline biedmatt  
#1 Posted : 27 June 2015 14:13:54(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
My Marklin set 37605 is one of my very favorites. A beautiful rendition of the VT11.5 TEE train done in all metal. Marklin too were very proud of this set. They put bearings on the armatures of the coffee grinder motors and created a very special electronics package for the sound. They placed speakers in each powered unit and configured the electronics so sounds that should come from the end in front actually emanate from the forward unit. The horn will change from end to end based on the direction of travel and when you press F1, the two diesels at each end start one after the other, not simultaneously. See page 44 of the 37605 manual. All this with an FX decoder. Most remarkable. Unfortunately, the FX decoders are really showing their age. They have limited sound functions, no auto-registration and lack the electronics and software necessary for advanced computer control. No ABC among other missing features.

I knew I had to upgrade my set, but I really liked the sound functions that changed with direction of travel. This I would not give up. Then the answer hit me in the face one day. I bought a Brawa V320 with factory dual sound decoders and the solution became quite obvious, do the same with the VT11.5. But it wasn't going to be so simple. I needed slider changeover and circuit boards that would fit the space with which I had to work. I found some internal pictures of the ERA IV set 37606 and knew these were the answer. So I bought the circuit boards and fit them to my 37605 set. Marklin cut corners with set 37606. The speakers are connected in series and the sound is identical at each end no matter what the direction of travel. They also left out the bearings on the motor armatures, but that is irrelevant to this conversion. I had to modify the foils of the circuit board on the "front" unit so each decoder would wire directly to the speaker for it's end unit. The web site with the internal pictures of 37606 also stated the electrical plug connections were identical between 37605 and 37606, so those were simply plug and play. A couple hours of work and it was finished. I configured one decoder to have RailCom+ feedback including auto-registration and active track occupancy Railcom+ provides. I disabled RailCom feedback on the second decoder since it is just sound for the rear unit, but configured it with the same address as the other decoder so there is no need to pair the two decoders together in my controller as would be necessary with MFX. Now I have all the great features Marklin put in this set 10+ years ago with a state of the art electronics package.

If you decide to do the same, besides the three circuit boards (two in the front, one in the rear) you will need at least one of the 37606 speaker baffles since they are different and have unique mounting points for the front unit circuit boards. Decoder 1 is the 21MTC decoder seen in the top picture, lower unit. Decoder 2 is the one covered in clear shrink wrap, lower picture at the left, under the Marklin factory circuit board.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

http://www.web-hgh.de/p0...aemfx_dec-l-so_37606.htm

Edit: Foil changes

UserPostedImage

At red lines use an Exacto knife and open (separate) the foils. This will isolate the rear speaker from the front speaker.

At green line install a jumper from the 21MTC connector to a point on the foil just above where you cut it with the Exacto knife. This will close the circuit around the open created when you isolated the rear speaker and will now connect the front speaker to the decoder plugged into the circuit board. Lightly scrape the foil to expose some metal to solder your jumper.

Connect the speaker wires for the rear decoder directly to the socket pins of the plug connector where indicated by the blue lines.

Edited by user 31 March 2016 20:37:23(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 11 users liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline river6109  
#2 Posted : 27 June 2015 16:17:45(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,731
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Matt, I understand all the changes you have gone through but I'm a bit mystified why using 2 sound decoders, what is the difference having 2 speakers in each unit but 1 decoder. ? don't they usually run 2 motors ?

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline biedmatt  
#3 Posted : 27 June 2015 17:26:42(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Hi John, With two sound decoders, I can set the sound files I wish to operate based on direction of travel. For forward, the horn only works in the front decoder/speaker (F2, forward) and in reverse, the horn only works in the rear decoder/speaker (F2, reverse). I did this with the horn (F2), the conductors whistle (F10), the short horn (F11) and the station announcement (F15).

F1 is the diesel motor sound in the front unit and it will work in both directions and F3 is the diesel motor for the rear unit. It too works in forward or reverse. Here the advantage is each decoder plays just the sound file for it's associated diesel motor instead of playing the sound file for both diesel motors simultaneously. This provides a much better sound quality than if one speaker was playing the sound for both diesel motors simultaneously. Brawa used this in their V320 lokos. There isn't enough separation between the speakers in the V320 to notice the horn at one end or the other, but the motors themselves sound better when just one decoder plays a single motor sound file instead of two. I also created a bolean algebra equation linking the motor sounds to the shunting function. If the front motor (F1) is on and the rear motor (F3) is off, I get shunting mode or half speed. If F1 and F3 are on, I get full speed. If F1 and F3 are off, I still get full speed so I can easily move it around if I choose without having to activate the sound file for either motor. See functions FF and FS in second screen shot below. While both motors are on, I can still activate shunting mode by pressing F7. I get a big grin when I press F1 and the front motor goes through it's start sequence and then press F3 and hear the rear motor go through it's start sequence. Something you can't really hear when a single function button starts both motor simultaneously. I also used a similar arrangement with two decoders in my decoder upgrade of the V188, M's #37282.

Below are screen shots of the decoder function maps. The top two shots are the front decoder since it all wouldn't fit into one screen shot. There are many unused functions in the second decoder. It is not wired to any lights or a motor, just the speaker in the rear unit. Once I had the volume and configuration set for the front decoder, I copied the file and edited it for the second decoder. Those items not wired were left in the decoder's program, but perform no function. I didn't bother zeroing those unused items (lights, motor, etc.).

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

I love the LokProgrammer software and hardware. It makes configurations such as this a snap.

Edited by user 27 June 2015 22:59:05(UTC)  | Reason: clarity

Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 6 users liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline Mark5  
#4 Posted : 28 June 2015 04:40:28(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,204
Location: Montreal
Hi Matt,

This sounds brilliant. Would love to see a little video of this in operation.

I am curious from a sound editing p.o.v. ... how much editing of the second diesel engine sound did you make to create a difference between the two?
Also curious how many random variables/sound files you would have to work within the start-up sequence to create unique sounds on start up.

Thanks for sharing this!
- Mark



Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Hi John, With two sound decoders, I can set the sound files I wish to operate based on direction of travel. For forward, the horn only works in the front decoder/speaker (F2, forward) and in reverse, the horn only works in the rear decoder/speaker (F2, reverse). I did this with the horn (F2), the conductors whistle (F10), the short horn (F11) and the station announcement (F15).

F1 is the diesel motor sound in the front unit and it will work in both directions and F3 is the diesel motor for the rear unit. It too works in forward or reverse. Here the advantage is each decoder plays just the sound file for it's associated diesel motor instead of playing the sound file for both diesel motors simultaneously. This provides a much better sound quality than if one speaker was playing the sound for both diesel motors simultaneously. [...........] Once I had the volume and configuration set for the front decoder, I copied the file and edited it for the second decoder. [...........]

I love the LokProgrammer software and hardware. It makes configurations such as this a snap.
Interested in history of DB, DR and FS circa 1955 to 1965. Fan of signals, catenary, stations and yards.
Father of four girls running an exhibition layout, the Mädchenbahn--
https://www.marklin-user...rce.ashx?i=30519&b=1
Large version of my present avatar-- https://www.marklin-user...rce.ashx?i=29910&b=1
Source of previous avatar in "zoomify" detail-- http://bit.ly/1QqMgL0
Offline river6109  
#5 Posted : 28 June 2015 10:40:58(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,731
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Matt, terrific arrangement and i agree with the lok programmer its easy peasy but I've always wondered what are switching modes ? what does it actually do ? and it looks like you've used it

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline biedmatt  
#6 Posted : 28 June 2015 12:13:15(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Hi Mark, Let me try and shoot some video. Hearing the sound come from different ends will be difficult since the audio will not be in stereo, but I should be able to capture the different motor sounds.

Hi John, Switching mode was something I decided to use in an attempt to correct a "senior moment" sometime in the future. When switching mode is active, the speed of the loko is reduced by 50%. Something that provides a bit more slow speed control when doing switching work in a yard. These three lokos (VT11.5, V188 and the V320) require I press two different function buttons to get the sound for both prime movers in each loko. This is different from all my other lokos where the operating sound is under one function button. So I decided to create a program that would automatically prevent the loko from running at full speed if I did not activate the sound for both diesels. In the V320, this program is prototypical since they can run the V320 on one diesel at half speed. For the other two, I hope it will give me a simple reminder should I forget that second diesel under F3.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline river6109  
#7 Posted : 28 June 2015 17:09:20(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,731
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Hi Mark, Let me try and shoot some video. Hearing the sound come from different ends will be difficult since the audio will not be in stereo, but I should be able to capture the different motor sounds.

Hi John, Switching mode was something I decided to use in an attempt to correct a "senior moment" sometime in the future. When switching mode is active, the speed of the loko is reduced by 50%. Something that provides a bit more slow speed control when doing switching work in a yard. These three lokos (VT11.5, V188 and the V320) require I press two different function buttons to get the sound for both prime movers in each loko. This is different from all my other lokos where the operating sound is under one function button. So I decided to create a program that would automatically prevent the loko from running at full speed if I did not activate the sound for both diesels. In the V320, this program is prototypical since they can run the V320 on one diesel at half speed. For the other two, I hope it will give me a simple reminder should I forget that second diesel under F3.


Matt, you're not the only one who has senior moments, of course switching mode is usually under Function 3 Flapper


John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline mihirpadhye  
#8 Posted : 27 July 2015 19:38:48(UTC)
mihirpadhye

India   
Joined: 01/02/2014(UTC)
Posts: 23
Location: Pune
Hello Matt,

Nice work. As you have deactivated the RaiCom on the second decoder do you still see all the functions (dec 1 + dec2) under one locomotive?

Regards
Mihir
Offline biedmatt  
#9 Posted : 27 July 2015 21:58:34(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: mihirpadhye Go to Quoted Post
Hello Matt,

Nice work. As you have deactivated the RaiCom on the second decoder do you still see all the functions (dec 1 + dec2) under one locomotive?

Regards
Mihir

Hi,

Yes. Although function 3, the motor sound in the rear unit is not used in decoder one, it is identified as a function in the "information" screen of LokProgrammer with the typical ESU motor sound icon. Therefore, the icon is automatically imported with the loko details identified in decoder one via RailCom+. It just does not activate anything in decoder one since the function map for F3 is blank in decoder one. The controller still sends a signal to activate function 3 and decoder two sees the request for a condition change and acts upon the request. When I get home tonight, I'll make a screen shot of the information screen icons page for decoder one that gets auto imported to the controller.

Edit:
This is a screen shot of the LokProgrammer "information" screen with details for the function icons. For those unfamiliar with the LokProgrammer software, it is where you identify the icon automatically imported into your controller via RailCom+ or MFX if you are using that decoder format. It is also where you tag a function to be momentary or push on/push off. The second (not shown) screen "general" is where you will identify the loko name and a picture to be auto imported to your controller.

This is the icon screen for the front decoder (#1). As you can see, I have identified an icon for function 3 in that decoder even though I do not map any functions in that decoder to function 3. This is how I auto import the icon that actually operates the motor sound in the second (rear) decoder. I used the same icon for functions 1 and 3, ESU's generic "motor sound" icon.

UserPostedImage

Edited by user 28 July 2015 02:59:32(UTC)  | Reason: added screen shot

Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 28 July 2015 08:06:21(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,258
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mihirpadhye Go to Quoted Post
Nice work. As you have deactivated the RaiCom on the second decoder do you still see all the functions (dec 1 + dec2) under one locomotive?
That's the best you can get.

RailCom+ will automatically resolve address conflicts.
If RailCom+ was enabled on both decoders, they would get different addresses.

If the address is previously assigned on the controller, the main decoder will get a new address (RailCom+) while the secondary decoder keeps its address.
This could be an issue when visiting other layouts.


The current setup is a compromise - but I think it's the best possible compromise.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline biedmatt  
#11 Posted : 28 July 2015 11:51:05(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Decoder two, the shadow decoder, with RailCom+ turned off eliminates clutter on the controller. With RailCom+ enabled in both decoders, the controller would see two separate lokos on the loko selection screen and I would need to pair them using the consist feature in the controller. Not a big deal, but you end up with possibly three lokos with the same name on the loko selection screen, depending on how you label the second decoder. The basic single loko, the second decoder and the consist of both decoders. Then you need to notice if the loko you are selecting states "multi". If it does not, you are only issuing commands to one decoder. The configuration I used reduces the number of lokos to scroll through and eliminates the possibility of selecting just one decoder and not both decoders in a consist. These two decoders would never be operated separately from each other like two different lokos that could be operated separately or together in a consist. An address configuration choice DCC permits and MFX does not since MFX will not operate a decoder if it does not auto register.

Edit: As Tom pointed out, it could be a problem if you took the loko to another track and the address conflicted with one already in that controller. A simple solution there would be to tell the controller to accept this new decoder at it's configured address. As long as the loko at the same address is not on the track, then all is well. Once that other loko is placed on the track, either let the controller assign it a new address, or if the conflicting loko has now been removed from the track, let the controller now accept the original loko again as the address.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by biedmatt
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2021, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.696 seconds.