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Offline Goofy  
#1 Posted : 06 January 2014 11:36:47(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,438
Hello!

If i decides to change out my mfx+ decoder to ESU M4 sound decoder,what parameter is it for the 3 pole motor to program?
Many customer says that ESU decoder works better than Marklins mfx+ decoder.
Just in case...if i change out decoder.
CS3...H0...
Offline biedmatt  
#2 Posted : 06 January 2014 12:11:43(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Hello!

If i decides to change out my mfx+ decoder to ESU M4 sound decoder,what parameter is it for the 3 pole motor to program?
Many customer says that ESU decoder works better than Marklins mfx+ decoder.
Just in case...if i change out decoder.


I do not remember the exact numbers, but for the E40 from set 29040, I used the numbers the manual recommends for a Hag motor.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Goofy  
#3 Posted : 06 January 2014 12:33:01(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,438
Okey!
I suppose the latest version 1.83 also works with the M4 decoder,by register it.
CS3...H0...
Offline Paul59  
#4 Posted : 06 January 2014 12:42:19(UTC)
Paul59

United Kingdom   
Joined: 25/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: South East
Hi Goofy,

I've used several ESU M4 Lokpilot decoders which, as far as I am aware, are the same as the Loksounds but without sound.
There are three types of three pole motor - large flat collector, small flat collector and drum collector.

I have found that the settings recommended by ESU in the manual work well for the small flat collector motor and the drum collector motor.

However, they don't work well for the large flat collector motor so need changing. The settings I used are:

For MFX (M4) the sliders set to-
Regulation Reference: 32 (default 50)
Parameter K: 8 (default 40)
Parameter I: 16 (default 175)
Regulation Influence: 112 (default 200)

For MM I set the CVs to-
CV2 - Min Speed - 6
CV51 - 0
CV52 - 38
CV53 - 32
CV54 - 8
CV55 - 16
CV56 - 112

I have used these settings on several locos with the large flat collector motor and they seem to work well but, since all motors vary, some slight adjustment might be required.

Good luck,
Paul
Marklin HO using M track. ECOS 50200 software updated to version 3.7.0
Offline river6109  
#5 Posted : 06 January 2014 12:54:02(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,731
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
the recommended settings for various Märklin motors doesn't work most the time with the lokprogrammer whereas the Version 2 Lokpilot with less programmable settings worked fine.
I think ESU to some degree are overdoing it and I have not seen a setting which suppose to suit various motors has yet worked for me,
My latest debacle was: 2 Märklin BR 194 with 5 pole motors, 1 with a sound the other with a lokpilot decoder, I had to set the speed to 30km/h (sound decoder) to run at the speed level as 90km/h for the other loco, work this one out. all other CV's are the same setting



John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Online H0  
#6 Posted : 06 January 2014 12:55:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,258
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Paul59 Go to Quoted Post
There are three types of three pole motor - large flat collector, small flat collector and drum collector.
These are the old maintenance-friendly three-pole motors and the ESU manual recommends settings for those motors with an ESU magnet.

There also are several maintenance-free can motors (five-pole or three-pole) and the ESU manual does not recommend settings for those.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline river6109  
#7 Posted : 06 January 2014 12:56:05(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,731
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Paul,

I'm surprised you start with CV 2 minimum 6, how can you have a smooth start without taking off at 6kmh ?

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Goofy  
#8 Posted : 06 January 2014 13:02:08(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,438
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

There also are several maintenance-free can motors (five-pole or three-pole) and the ESU manual does not recommend settings for those.


Not even for Marklins cheap 3 pole motor...?
That´s way i did started topic by find after answer.

CS3...H0...
Offline biedmatt  
#9 Posted : 06 January 2014 13:35:25(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Anders, you do mean the three pole can motor Marklin is using right?

Edit: See post #31
https://www.marklin-user...e-motors.aspx#post422040
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Online H0  
#10 Posted : 06 January 2014 13:56:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,258
Location: DE-NW
There are so many different can motors used in Märklin models these days.
If you want to convert model 37xyz then ask if anybody can recommend load regulation parameters for that specific model.

There is not a single "Märklin 3-pole motor" and therefore a single set of parameters won't do.
One user on Stummi's Forum wrote that he had to return two models of V 100 (37000). So he had a total of three locos and for each loco he found a different set of load regulation parameters to give best results. Three locos #37000 that are supposed to have the same type of motor ...

So this could be one reason for ESU not to recommend load regulation parameters for the new locos.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline biedmatt  
#11 Posted : 06 January 2014 14:08:28(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Paul,

I'm surprised you start with CV 2 minimum 6, how can you have a smooth start without taking off at 6kmh ?

John


Does seem a bit high. I had to go with CV2 at 6 on my Super LFCM in the 3015/36159/31859 Krocs, but they still yielded a scale speed of 2.4MPH. Once I got it running smooth at all throttle settings, I tried to decrease CV2. But anything below 6 was too slow for those motors.

The auto tune function can be quite handy. I used it for the big Krocs. What I got was not perfect, but it gave me a very good start point so I was not shooting in the dark trying to find out where to start. The instructions in the manuals, although difficult to read, are very helpful. Remember that the I and K slow settings are for throttle setting one and two. I and K are for throttle setting three and up. Run the loko at throttle settings one and two. If it lunges up and down, adjust slow influence (K-slow). Try the loko at three and four. If it lunges up and down adjust influence (K). If when you crank the throttle to max and watch it accelerate, it lunges forward at each higher speed step instead of a smooth acceleration as it accelerates to max, adjust inertia (I and I slow). if you find it does not get to max speed, or sometimes it runs fast and sometimes runs slow at max although nothing else has changed, adjust CV 53 (reference voltage).

The settings for all three big Krocs (the two 31859s used the same settings) were different for each. No surprise since they were manufactured at very different times. Although the motors look the same, I'm sure the winding wire gauge and number of wraps per armature are different for the three different generations of this motor.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Goofy  
#12 Posted : 06 January 2014 15:27:37(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,438
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
Anders, you do mean the three pole can motor Marklin is using right?

Edit: See post #31
https://www.marklin-user...e-motors.aspx#post422040


Yes!

CS3...H0...
Offline jvuye  
#13 Posted : 06 January 2014 16:19:05(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Hi Anders!

I have used many many ESU decoders when converting/upgrading older locos etc.
The settings mentionned in the manual are a very good start for most of the known motors (e.g. SFCM, 5 pole drum, HAG, etc..)

However on all the V4 decoders, there is an "autotune" feature (Tom had indicated that to me a long time ago...) and that works very well for most of the "unknown" motors.

For example I was trying (unsuccessfully...) to tune an older RIvarossi loco with one of the big "yo-yo" style motors.
No luck!

Then I tried the "autotune" feature and since it runs extremely smoothly and has a great tractive power (yes it is quite a big motor with a heavy magnet)

All you need is a stretch of track where your loco can run at full speed for a few meters without derailing. (First time I did this it was on a carpet with about 4 meters of straight track with buffers on each end, but now I have a section on the layout where I can perform this too)

There is nothing simpler to use this feature

1° On the programming track, enter the value "0" in CV 54
2° turn the power off on your central station
3° enter the loco address and put the loco on the test segment
4° turn the power on
5° press F1. The loco will zoom off at full speed , then stop after a few meters.

That's it...the loco is tuned!!

You can still do some additional fine tuning, especially if you do not like the running characteristics at low speed settings (follow the clear instructions in the manual)

Hope this helps

Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by jvuye
H0
Offline Goofy  
#14 Posted : 06 January 2014 17:55:44(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,438
Cool nice way!
Will this work too with the MS2...?
CS3...H0...
Online H0  
#15 Posted : 06 January 2014 18:00:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,258
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Will this work too with the MS2...?
Yes.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Goofy  
#16 Posted : 06 January 2014 18:05:49(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,438
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Hi Anders!

1° On the programming track, enter the value "0" in CV 54
2° turn the power off on your central station
3° enter the loco address and put the loco on the test segment
4° turn the power on
5° press F1. The loco will zoom off at full speed , then stop after a few meters.

That's it...the loco is tuned!!

You can still do some additional fine tuning, especially if you do not like the running characteristics at low speed settings (follow the clear instructions in the manual)

Hope this helps

Cheers


Just one missunderstanding...
2.
3.
How shall i enter adress,if the power is shut off?

CS3...H0...
Offline jvuye  
#17 Posted : 06 January 2014 18:16:19(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post


Just one missunderstanding...
2.
3.
How shall i enter adress,if the power is shut off?




Your central station is powered on , but the power to the track (stop button) has been switched off.
Clearer?
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
Offline biedmatt  
#18 Posted : 06 January 2014 18:41:25(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
This is where the instructions get dicey:

Parameter „K“ needs adjustment if the locomotive runs unevenly (jerks)
and:
Adjust parameter „I“ if the locomotive jerks somewhat just before it stops or „jumps“ at lower speeds (lower third of the speed step range) or simply does not run smoothly.

They use "jerks" for both K and I. The difference, once you look close, is "unevenly" for parameter K. What I have learned is: If at a continuous throttle setting it surges, adjust K. If it jumps while accelerating or decelerating (a change in motor speed that the motor's inertia will affect), adjust I (inertia). I start with K and try to get it smooth at constant throttle settings, then I work inertia.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline Paul59  
#19 Posted : 06 January 2014 19:03:47(UTC)
Paul59

United Kingdom   
Joined: 25/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 141
Location: South East
Sorry Goofy. I forgot about the three pole can motors since most of mine are the older type motors.
As others have said ESU don't mention the can motors so you have to go from scratch or use the auto tune function (although I've never had a lot of joy with that).

There is a lot of good advice from others on this thread so read it a few times and then have a go - you can't mess anything up since setting CV8 to the value 8 resets the decoder and you can try again.

River - I use the value 6 for the locos with a large flat collector motor as I have found this to give a good slow starting speed. Anything less is too slow or doesn't move at all. With the drum collector motor and the small flat collector motor I find that a setting of 2 for the slow running works well. Strange eh?

It's all a bit of a 'black art' this isn't it?

Paul
Marklin HO using M track. ECOS 50200 software updated to version 3.7.0
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