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Offline bygger01  
#1 Posted : 20 October 2013 22:22:57(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 142
Location: Herning in Denmark
I think I had asked you before about this, but now there is a problem ...

I had made diff. trials and had used a pH neutral glue from the Danish Dana for my K tracks

Because of a short circuit around a breaking modul, then I realise that there had been rust after around 12 months and a picture will be added later

I had also sent the picture to Märklin, and they had answer this way:


The first round:

Guten Tag

This had been sent via homepage, but now there is also a picture included

A few years ago I contacted you about the glue for ballast in K tracks which Märklin could recommend, but the only response from you was to rust, that it was unknown for Marklin.


I have now tracks with rust after about 18 months and a picture of a 2251 is included in this mail


There is used a non-acid wood glue mixed with 4x water and a little dishwashing agent + a stone ballast.


The underlay is rubber cork and the room is inside our house.

Do you know what has been done wrong

I would like to hear from you


The answer from Märklin

Dear Mr. Steffensen,

this is the typical result, when a model railroader uses glue with too much water, when he try to fix the gravel at the tracks. Please never make the glue thinner with water. This water will rest in the gravel and starts then with the corrosion of the tracks.


And then I had sent the following

Good evening Mr. Mayer

Thank you for your prompt reply, but there is something I can not get to fit

As I know, is all wood glue today diluted with water for getting the dry matter content to fit and also to be the part, that needs to evaporate, so according to my opinion there is water in all wood glue types

Do you think, that it is wrong ?

If I'm right, then it should just be save to keep dry matter high to avoid water

However, as the viscosity becomes very high .....

And how much water can the K track accept


Do you have another suggestion for diluting a wood glue to avoid the water ?



So the golden questions is

What had I done wrong
Is there a better way


Looking forward from guidelines from you
bygger01 attached the following image(s):
SCN_0001.jpg
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
Offline Goofy  
#2 Posted : 20 October 2013 23:25:24(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,574
I use wood glue mixed with water and few dish liquid.
I mix 50/50 of glue and water.
I spray with alcohol on the ballast to prevent static surface before to glue ballast.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline bygger01  
#3 Posted : 21 October 2013 00:15:40(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 142
Location: Herning in Denmark
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I use wood glue mixed with water and few dish liquid.
I mix 50/50 of glue and water.
I spray with alcohol on the ballast to prevent static surface before to glue ballast.


Are you also using K track ?
And if so, had you after a period check, if there are rust ?
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
Offline hxmiesa  
#4 Posted : 21 October 2013 18:13:50(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,350
Location: Spain
I usually dilude the glue even more. How about 1:10.
My layout is in a very wet basement, but I use a de-humidifier to keep the humidity around 50-60%.
Like Goofy, I also use alcohol sprayed out on the ballast as a wetting-agent, to help spread the glue/water mix.

My current layout has been around for 7 years now. Before this current alyout, I also had problems with rust. I think the key is the de-humidifyer!
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by hxmiesa
Offline Goofy  
#5 Posted : 21 October 2013 20:40:21(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,574
Originally Posted by: bygger01 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I use wood glue mixed with water and few dish liquid.
I mix 50/50 of glue and water.
I spray with alcohol on the ballast to prevent static surface before to glue ballast.


Are you also using K track ?
And if so, had you after a period check, if there are rust ?


Yes i did had problem with the rust.
The problem with Marklins K track is that stud contact metal is not hidden under the plastic sleepers instead.
Or stainless steel like rail.
With stainless steel it wont rust.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Goofy
Offline mvd71  
#6 Posted : 23 October 2013 09:52:07(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,473
Location: Auckland,
Hi,

Something to consider is that not only are you putting water all around your K track, but the dish wash liquid is a mild caustic, which will encourage corrosion.
That said, the corrosion that you are seeing on th base of the track seldom, if ever causes running problems, and is invisible when the track is on the layout.

Cheers.....

Mike.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by mvd71
Offline BrandonVA  
#7 Posted : 23 October 2013 15:36:52(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
You can also add a bit of Isopropyl alcohol instead of soap, in addition to wetting the area by spraying with Isopropyl alcohol first.

I think running a de-humidifier (as suggested) immediately after ballasting will help a lot, especially for that 2-3 day period before the glue mixture dries. I have heard of some people using a hair dryer to accelerate this, but be careful a.) to not blow the ballast away and b.) not to dry it too quickly, possibly causing cracking or other issues.

If there are high humidity conditions present where you are working, you could test a few different methods on "junk" track and see what comes out the best before doing the whole layout.

-Brandon
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Offline bygger01  
#8 Posted : 24 October 2013 01:20:45(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 142
Location: Herning in Denmark
The layout is in our house and the humility is around 40 - 50 % and with 20-22 degree Celsius, so I don't think a de-humidifier is needed .....

I am also running trials with other glues than standard Wood glue to reduce the noice and here there are good progress

First I made 3 trials the normal way with one part glue & 4-5 part water + a little dish wash. One with the wood glue plus 2 "glue" based on my ideas from the carpet production, which never will be hard as the normal wood glue, which is like cement.

The most soft one reduced the noice with 3-4 decibel measured with mobiltelephone.

So a new sample is drying out now based only one the water, which is the glue ( and no dish wash ) and early next week I will report again

I think this is the right way because the glue will be never dry out.
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
Offline hxmiesa  
#9 Posted : 24 October 2013 12:55:10(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,350
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: BrandonVA Go to Quoted Post
I think running a de-humidifier (as suggested) immediately after ballasting will help a lot, especially for that 2-3 day period before the glue mixture dries.

Just to mention that my de-humidifier is ALWAYS running. Not only after ballasting.

I dont go down as low as 40%; That makes a lot of nasty static electricity. -At least with the wooden Ikea-floor that I installed in the train-room... =:-)
I keep humidity around 55%.
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline bygger01  
#10 Posted : 28 October 2013 21:17:22(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 142
Location: Herning in Denmark
Due to a storm in Denmark, the promised report will first be early next week
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
Offline bygger01  
#11 Posted : 29 October 2013 22:47:53(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 142
Location: Herning in Denmark
I had picked up my trial

And tried to compair the 4 diff. tracks

They are measured with my iPhone with the different dB meters

They show very different & high figure, but there is still a picture of it

Measuring wagon was a Märklin passenger wagon with bogie and was run with a finger back and forth

And there are approx. 2 - 3 dB less sound from the alternative adhesives with 1:5 water + detergent, but clean glue of my favorite again showed 4-5 dB lower than the "normal" wood glue.

But it is a difficult measurement with an iPhone

I have also used a recording of the sound of a graph, the graph shown here the same observations, and can be displayed

The screws are not yet removed ......
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by bygger01
Offline danmarklinman  
#12 Posted : 01 November 2013 14:54:16(UTC)
danmarklinman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 18/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,324
Originally Posted by: bygger01 Go to Quoted Post
I think I had asked you before about this, but now there is a problem ...

I had made diff. trials and had used a pH neutral glue from the Danish Dana for my K tracks

Because of a short circuit around a breaking modul, then I realise that there had been rust after around 12 months and a picture will be added later

I had also sent the picture to Märklin, and they had answer this way:


The first round:

Guten Tag

This had been sent via homepage, but now there is also a picture included

A few years ago I contacted you about the glue for ballast in K tracks which Märklin could recommend, but the only response from you was to rust, that it was unknown for Marklin.


I have now tracks with rust after about 18 months and a picture of a 2251 is included in this mail


There is used a non-acid wood glue mixed with 4x water and a little dishwashing agent + a stone ballast.


The underlay is rubber cork and the room is inside our house.

Do you know what has been done wrong

I would like to hear from you


The answer from Märklin

Dear Mr. Steffensen,

this is the typical result, when a model railroader uses glue with too much water, when he try to fix the gravel at the tracks. Please never make the glue thinner with water. This water will rest in the gravel and starts then with the corrosion of the tracks.


And then I had sent the following

Good evening Mr. Mayer

Thank you for your prompt reply, but there is something I can not get to fit

As I know, is all wood glue today diluted with water for getting the dry matter content to fit and also to be the part, that needs to evaporate, so according to my opinion there is water in all wood glue types

Do you think, that it is wrong ?

If I'm right, then it should just be save to keep dry matter high to avoid water

However, as the viscosity becomes very high .....

And how much water can the K track accept


Do you have another suggestion for diluting a wood glue to avoid the water ?



So the golden questions is

What had I done wrong
Is there a better way


Looking forward from guidelines from you


Hi just a thought, i diluted my ballast alot with water. I didnt have to many problems with rust. because i dried the damp but almost solid ballast around the track with a heat gun on a low setting. or you could use a hair drier to evaporate the water content in your PVA glue! I have found rust however on non ballasted track in the tunnel, because i had stored the layout in a damp area! There are no running problems with this however. I hope this helps.
Marklin and Piko era 4 SNCB , Marklin wagons
Wiking model car Fan
Faller fan including car system
Instagram: marklin1978
Wiking fan
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by danmarklinman
Offline Goofy  
#13 Posted : 01 November 2013 16:40:46(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,574
If you don´t want rust,use special glue from Faller and add with cork ballast.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline bygger01  
#14 Posted : 01 November 2013 17:20:38(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 142
Location: Herning in Denmark
A confession

At the stations are used PP felt, but on the lines are used rubber cork (which comes from old tires)

The tracks I've had up, was laid on rubber cork because cork was easier to cut - than the felt - and gave a good noise reduction .

Today I talked to an old colleague, and he could remember an old experiment in which we need to examine whether we could use granules of old tires as a filler , and it had to be abandoned due to impurities of metals from tires

When I look at the tracks (see picture) is rusty only inside the curve and not outside, as there have been a piece of cardboard to lift the track .

So I am now convinced that rusty due to impurities in the rubber cork and not so much from the adhesive

Going forward, there will be at J & B Rail used the new type of glue that makes a significantly lower "noise" , and then the tracks, there are laid on rubber cork, will live their dangerous life

I have a file on my iPhone , which clearly audible difference

As a conclusion must be that I "made" the reason for the rust and has drawn you around a in the ring
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by bygger01
Offline bygger01  
#15 Posted : 02 November 2013 21:25:43(UTC)
bygger01

Denmark   
Joined: 23/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 142
Location: Herning in Denmark
The confession had also been sent to Mr. Meyer at Märklin ....
Best regards
Jørgen St. from Herning in DK
H0 / Märklin K track / CS3+ / full digital / Epoke III +/-
Offline Danlake  
#16 Posted : 02 November 2013 21:54:17(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,564
Hi bygger. Good to hear that you found the most likely problem. I was surprised to see your photos with that amount of rust. So far I have not seen any rust at all on my k tracks which is in my insulated garage, but does experience big differences in humidity. I do not add dishwasher soap to my glue mixture, instead I spray the ballast with a fine mist of warm water with a little isopropyl in it.

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Danlake
Offline DaleSchultz  
#17 Posted : 11 February 2014 02:33:04(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
an alternative is not to glue them at all, just press them into Merkur Styroplast

http://layout.mixmox.com/1/laying-track

When I had to move house and dismantle the layout I was able to lift all my K-track and use it again
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline kbvrod  
#18 Posted : 11 February 2014 20:04:30(UTC)
kbvrod

United States   
Joined: 23/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,597
Location: Beverly, MA
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
an alternative is not to glue them at all, just press them into Merkur Styroplast

http://layout.mixmox.com/1/laying-track

When I had to move house and dismantle the layout I was able to lift all my K-track and use it again



Hi Dale,all,
Noch bought Merkur and if recall and stop producing it,...Mad It was a fine product.The only product close is Tillig Stryostone:

http://www.tillig.com/index-2.htm

Dr D

Offline PJMärklin  
#19 Posted : 12 February 2014 09:20:52(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,093
Location: Hobart, Australia
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by PJMärklin
Offline mbarreto  
#20 Posted : 12 February 2014 14:58:43(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,011


When I was younger I did some printed circuit boards and sometimes used nails varnish to draw the conducting tracks in the copper. After I inserted the boar in the liquid and the copper covered by the nails varnish was there (the conducting tracks), while the other copper had disappeared from the board. So maybe a possibility to avoid rust and still use the white glue with water and dish cleaning liquid is to clean well the underside of the K track and then apply some varnish. After that, just let it dry (which is fast) and the lay the track, ballast and apply the glue. I didn't test this, so it is just an idea.

Relating the water to white glue proportions the rule is to to add water to the glue until it has a density similar to the milk. Then add few drops of dish cleaning liquid. Some here use to spray it over the track and, after, clean the rails, but I just saw do that in 2 rails track. I think with 3 rails it is the same, just need to clean the studs also.
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline applor  
#21 Posted : 24 March 2017 02:17:11(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,531
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I know this is an older thread but I am actually facing the same sort of issue.

I have used blobs of undiluted wood glue on the sides of the sleepers on my K track at intervals to secure it to merkur foam in my hidden areas (no ballasting)

I have found in a matter of days that where the glue has come into contact with the copper tabs underneath the K track, it has rusted and discoloured the glue.


After reading this thread it is clear that diluting the glue for ballast applications is not the problem, rather the wood glue itself.

I wonder if Jorgen (bygger01) found this out as well, since I don't see how the cork underlay could be blamed either.

I am now thinking either a contact adhesive or superglue might be required instead?
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
Offline applor  
#22 Posted : 25 March 2017 00:28:39(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,531
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
This shows where I used the wood glue all under the K track:

rust.JPG
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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