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Offline Martin T  
#1 Posted : 31 July 2013 21:04:41(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 864
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi!

I just made a cheap conversion of a old loco with a random decoder I found in my drawer.
I wired it up according to a sketch I found on the internet. The motor runs, but the coil overheat and the motor makes noices even as soon as I put it on the track.
Can't figure out what's wrong.

Anybody has a good idea?

UserPostedImage
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
Offline Martin T  
#2 Posted : 31 July 2013 21:21:48(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 864
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Ohh..

Forgot the link to the scheme. I used this sketch to wire the decoder.
http://www.uhlenbrock.de/INTERN...A64-022.apd/Bes75002.pdf
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 31 July 2013 21:31:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,202
Location: DE-NW
I'm not sure if the brown wire really connects to the chassis - to me it looks as if it connects to the coils. But with that picture it's a bit difficult to find the fault with certainty anyway.

It's a bit dangerous to use a non-Märklin diagram for a Märklin decoder (?), but in this case the cable colours should match.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Martin T  
#4 Posted : 31 July 2013 21:58:57(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 864
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I'm not sure if the brown wire really connects to the chassis - to me it looks as if it connects to the coils. But with that picture it's a bit difficult to find the fault with certainty anyway.

It's a bit dangerous to use a non-Märklin diagram for a Märklin decoder (?), but in this case the cable colours should match.


Hi!

Thank you for your reply!
Yepp, the brown connects both to ground and one side of the motor.
I'm not sure what brand the decoder is either.. Wouldn't think it's Märklin..
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
Offline biedmatt  
#5 Posted : 31 July 2013 22:12:42(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Looks to me like brown essentially goes to ground only. They show it going to the motor, presumably a brush cover screw, but that too is a ground. You can see blue and green go to each of the coil windings and they show both windings coming out and going to the brush on the right. Left brush clearly goes to black. Standard Märklin wiring for an AC motor. One connection to a brush and one connection to each of the two coil windings. Direction of travel is determined by which coil has power at any given moment. Since this covers all the motor connections, I would say brown does not go to the coil.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
H0
Offline jvuye  
#6 Posted : 31 July 2013 22:19:43(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Decoder is Märklin C80.
Diagram is for Uhlenbrock AnDi 75000, a totally different animal.
You are lucky if the decoder hasn't blown uP already.
Would love to help but frankly your wiring is impossible to decipher..
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by jvuye
Offline biedmatt  
#7 Posted : 31 July 2013 22:36:29(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Jacques is right. It is an early C80, back when they had two blue wires for the coils and not the blue and green later versions had.

The coil is powered in series with the armature. The power passes through one coil to a motor brush, passes through the armature and then returns to the power source with the opposite brush. Coils are wound in opposite direction to each other and this causes the magnetic field to change polarity, depending on wether the blue or green is the live wire at that moment. This causes the motor to change direction. Your brown connection to the other side of the windings is causing the coils to overheat since power is going into the coil via one or the other blue wire and then straight to ground. The armature is being bypassed (shunted is the electrical term) and therefore the coils must disipate all the power supplied by the decoder. They do not have the wattage rating to take such power, so they overheat.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by biedmatt
Mark5H0
Offline biedmatt  
#8 Posted : 31 July 2013 23:17:04(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
This will help. A remnant from the mid 80's when the C80 had two blue wires. I do not know why the scanner wants to cut off the left side of the picture, but it is just a light same as right side of picture.

UserPostedImage
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by biedmatt
Mark5H0
Offline Martin T  
#9 Posted : 01 August 2013 00:02:40(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 864
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Decoder is Märklin C80.
Diagram is for Uhlenbrock AnDi 75000, a totally different animal.
You are lucky if the decoder hasn't blown uP already.
Would love to help but frankly your wiring is impossible to decipher..



Thank you!!

I googled Märklin C80 and found the correct wiring scheme.
Now it works like a charm! :)
Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Martin T
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 01 August 2013 08:06:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,202
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Diagram is for Uhlenbrock AnDi 75000, a totally different animal.
You are lucky if the decoder hasn't blown up already.
That was my first though also, but the diagram does fit (though it may be irritating if you don't have experience with that class of decoders).
But the brown wire is meant to go to the screw that holds the brush plate, not to the brush. That was the only mistake (PEBKAC, no diagram fault - but the point where the diagram may be irritating).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Goofy  
#11 Posted : 01 August 2013 09:48:16(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,427
Deleted
Offline Goofy  
#12 Posted : 01 August 2013 09:52:35(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,427
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
This will help. A remnant from the mid 80's when the C80 had two blue wires. I do not know why the scanner wants to cut off the left side of the picture, but it is just a light same as right side of picture.

UserPostedImage


If you decides to change motor to DC or faulhaber i suggest you must isolated motor from the under body.
And of course...use another decoder! Wink
Offline biedmatt  
#13 Posted : 01 August 2013 11:45:58(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
These old C80s were interesting to install. The decoder would forget it's direction of travel once it lost power for a few minutes. At signals you would solder a 1.5K ohm resistor in that would "leak" enough power to the decoder to remember it's direction, yet not allow the loko to run. The two blue and two yellow wires gave no indication of motor direction nor which yellow went to which lamp. So you temporarily soldered the blues to each coil and tested to see if the loko would run forward or reverse. A 50-50 proposition that you ended up guessing wrong 80% of the time. Same was true with the yellows for the lamps. You had no way to determine which was front and which was rear. I removed my C80s and replaced them with LokPilot and LokSound V4s a year ago when I got back into model railroading. With these you just need to determine polarity for the motor brushes to get it to run forward. I test the motor with a DC power supply, mark the positive brush with a dot of red paint and connect orange to that brush.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
Offline foumaro  
#14 Posted : 01 August 2013 12:03:04(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,347
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Decoder is Märklin C80.
Diagram is for Uhlenbrock AnDi 75000, a totally different animal.
You are lucky if the decoder hasn't blown uP already.
Would love to help but frankly your wiring is impossible to decipher..


My congratulations for the apposite and helpful remark.
Offline Martin T  
#15 Posted : 03 August 2013 22:34:52(UTC)
Martin T

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 864
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted by: biedmatt Go to Quoted Post
These old C80s were interesting to install. The decoder would forget it's direction of travel once it lost power for a few minutes. At signals you would solder a 1.5K ohm resistor in that would "leak" enough power to the decoder to remember it's direction, yet not allow the loko to run. The two blue and two yellow wires gave no indication of motor direction nor which yellow went to which lamp. So you temporarily soldered the blues to each coil and tested to see if the loko would run forward or reverse. A 50-50 proposition that you ended up guessing wrong 80% of the time. Same was true with the yellows for the lamps. You had no way to determine which was front and which was rear. I removed my C80s and replaced them with LokPilot and LokSound V4s a year ago when I got back into model railroading. With these you just need to determine polarity for the motor brushes to get it to run forward. I test the motor with a DC power supply, mark the positive brush with a dot of red paint and connect orange to that brush.


Hi!

This lokomotive was the first one I got. It was a Christmas present from my Mum when I was 8 years old.
I had this idea not to alter it too much, but to stay with the 3-pole motor and a really simple decoder.
I want to preserve the jerky and rough running characteristics. All of my other locos are new either 5-pole, or sinus C motors which "flows" along the tracks, so this one will really stick out from the crowd. It will only be used in shunter service, so if it Changes direction after Power down, it doesn't matter either..



Regards / Martin T
Click your way over to me in Marbrodal in Sweden: http://www.xn--mrklintg-0zaq.se/index_e.html
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