74491 -The soldering saga!

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74491 -The soldering saga!

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Joseph Meiring		#1 Posted : 29 July 2013 20:11:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC) Posts: 1,157 Location: Western Cape Cape Town		Further to the 74491 mechanisms being soldered - John vr very kindly repaired 9 of my mechs,and they are working an absolute treat now; *both ways all the time* What I have noticed is that my coach lights, (LED's or "old fashioned" globes), dim quite substantially when the mechanisms are activated, and also dim, even when the same control on the MS2 switch is depressed (without the turnout moving). Whereas with a new "un-soldered" mechanism, there is very little dimming, and no dimming at all of the coach lights once the turnout has moved, and the same control is depressed on my MS2....Thought I would just mention this.... Joe


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tulit		#2 Posted : 29 July 2013 21:46:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC) Posts: 400		Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Further to the 74491 mechanisms being soldered - John vr very kindly repaired 9 of my mechs,and they are working an absolute treat now; *both ways all the time* What I have noticed is that my coach lights, (LED's or "old fashioned" globes), dim quite substantially when the mechanisms are activated, and also dim, even when the same control on the MS2 switch is depressed (without the turnout moving). Whereas with a new "un-soldered" mechanism, there is very little dimming, and no dimming at all of the coach lights once the turnout has moved, and the same control is depressed on my MS2....Thought I would just mention this.... Joe It's probably because the coils now stay energized for a full 200ms (or whatever your controller is set to) instead of being only on as long as they need to be to switch (the microswitch that you bypassed shuts the coil off once it sees the motion is completed). The longer time is probably just making it more noticeable now.

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waorb		#3 Posted : 29 July 2013 21:49:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Further to the 74491 mechanisms being soldered - John vr very kindly repaired 9 of my mechs,and they are working an absolute treat now; *both ways all the time* So, good news! Quote: What I have noticed is that my coach lights, (LED's or "old fashioned" globes), dim quite substantially when the mechanisms are activated, and also dim, even when the same control on the MS2 switch is depressed (without the turnout moving). Whereas with a new "un-soldered" mechanism, there is very little dimming, and no dimming at all of the coach lights once the turnout has moved, and the same control is depressed on my MS2.... I didn't notice this behavior in my layout... I'll pay attention tonight and post again... How do you switch your mechs? CS? 1, 2? With decoders? Or just control boxes? For the file: I use CS2 with K83 decoders. Some of them still controlled by control boxes (not digitalized yet). Quote: Thought I would just mention this.... Joe Thanks for sharing with us! Regards, Walter
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efel		#4 Posted : 29 July 2013 21:53:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC) Posts: 800		Hi, When the motor has end-shutoff-switches, the current in the solenoid is cut off as soon as the moving is finished. With C track turnout, the current duration is then 10 to 20 ms. The current value is 1.5A. When you remove (or short) the end-shutoff-switches, the current flows in the solenoid until the end of the command (50ms to 200ms or more, depending on your central ...). Furthermore, with end-shutoff-switches, there is no more current if you send the same command again, which is not the case with removed shutoff contacts. If you use k83 with external supply (viessmann for example), you will not have that problem. Fred

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Joseph Meiring		#5 Posted : 30 July 2013 08:29:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC) Posts: 1,157 Location: Western Cape Cape Town		Thanks so much Fred - "with end-shutoff-switches, there is no more current if you send the same command again, which is not the case with removed shutoff contacts": That clears it up: so, I suppose, the best is not to send the same command again with soldered switches. I have only tested the soldered switches on my turnouts with fitted decoders, via a MS2 (60653). have not tried any of my K83's yet.... thanks everyone, Joe


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waorb		#6 Posted : 30 July 2013 13:45:42(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Hello. I do not have this behavior in my layout... all mechs (soldered or original ones) act as supposed to, even controlled by CS2+K83 or directly with control boxes. No dims on any light (coachs, signals bulbs, etc). Regards, Walter
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efel		#7 Posted : 30 July 2013 23:46:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC) Posts: 800		It's likely due to the fact that, when the motor point is activated, its 1.5A current, added to the current for the train+lights, reach the power possibility of the MS2 and (or) its transfo. Whereas the CS2 can easily supply it . Fred

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waorb		#8 Posted : 31 July 2013 03:09:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Originally Posted by: efel It's likely due to the fact that, when the motor point is activated, its 1.5A current, added to the current for the train+lights, reach the power possibility of the MS2 and (or) its transfo. Whereas the CS2 can easily supply it . Fred Yes! You got the point... Thinking more about it, yes, remembering the time when I do not have the CS, sometimes launching more than a few loks+coaches+lights I had a "power outage"... the MS couldn`t supply the needs... probably today the turnouts soldered cause the same behavior... Regards, Walter
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H0		#9 Posted : 31 July 2013 07:56:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,267 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: efel It's likely due to the fact that, when the motor point is activated, its 1.5A current [...] I cannot measure the current, so I can neither confirm nor deny this (1.5 A). 1.5 A at 20 V track voltage are 30 VA. The Märklin manuals indicate that an active solenoid draws 5 to 10 VA, so this would be 0.5 A or less. When the lights go dim, this could be the result of too few and too thin power and feeder wires. When the current in a wire doubles, the voltage drop in the wire will also double. Maybe I can do some tests this week (but my turnouts still have active micro switches). But I wouldn't blame the MS2 without knowing the wiring of the layout in question.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS

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Joseph Meiring		#10 Posted : 31 July 2013 11:38:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC) Posts: 1,157 Location: Western Cape Cape Town		Thanks Tom, Fred and Walter! I only have 1 pair of "standard" M feeder wires from the track to the connector box. And when I put all my coaches with lights on track the MS2 registers 1.0amp (well, it fluctuates between 0.9 and 1.0), with 18.1 voltage. maybe I need to put in more feeder wires??..and change over to LED's??.. thanks again for all the info, Joe


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efel		#11 Posted : 31 July 2013 13:40:45(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC) Posts: 800		Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: efel It's likely due to the fact that, when the motor point is activated, its 1.5A current [...] I cannot measure the current, so I can neither confirm nor deny this (1.5 A). ... Hi Tom, The coil resistance is 13 Ohm. The impedance at 50 Hz is roughly the same, for the inductance is 1mH or so. In digital, with k83, the impedance is also the same, for the digital signal is rectified and filtered. When using an oscilloscope, we observe, indeed, a peak current of 1.5A, during 10ms (with shutoff switches). At least for (my) 74490s. Fred

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waorb		#12 Posted : 31 July 2013 13:50:23(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Originally Posted by: Joe Meiring Thanks Tom, Fred and Walter! I only have 1 pair of "standard" M feeder wires from the track to the connector box. And when I put all my coaches with lights on track the MS2 registers 1.0amp (well, it fluctuates between 0.9 and 1.0), with 18.1 voltage. maybe I need to put in more feeder wires??..and change over to LED's??.. thanks again for all the info, Joe Hello Joe! I'm not the right person to ask about feeder wires... My layout have 75 linear meters of C tracks divided 1/3 powered by a single pair of wires from the CS2, and 2/3 powered by another single pair from a Booster (connected to the CS). (you can see it at MyAlbums) I "discovered" this kind of multiples feeder wires here in the forum, and not implemented yet. I'm putting in my ToDo list this task to install another pair on each section... but since CS2 give 3.5A and the booster give 5A, it's enough to my trains just in case. Previously, I had 2 MS2 (connected master/slave), and when I run 3 loks together with lighted coaches (sometimes smoking) I notice that one of them starts to fail because of the lack of power... This was one reason why I moved to the CS2. I think in your case more feeders will not improve so much... but will better 'spread' the energy... Maybe it's better to you exchange light bulbs to LEDs on coaches, move turnouts/signals mechs to a separate power source, leaving the power from the MS only for the tracks... I don't know how much trains/coaches do you have, but remove from the layout/tracks any item that you are not running in that moment (to spare the energy in favor of that ones that are running). Probably you are at the same point I was few years ago, crossing the border between MS and CS. Good luck! Regards, Walter
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