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steventrain		#1 Posted : 29 March 2012 20:26:43(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,606 Location: United Kingdom		I have see on ebay/lokshop and other top dealers special offer on CS2 under 600 euro. Marklin is clear out the CS2? Is it a newly one coming soon such as CS3?
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H0		#2 Posted : 29 March 2012 20:40:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		It seems to be a special offer from Märklin - dealers can get 60215 at a reduced rate in April 2012. CS2s from starter sets are still cheaper. I haven't heard rumours about a forthcoming CS3.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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steventrain		#3 Posted : 29 March 2012 20:46:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,606 Location: United Kingdom		Originally Posted by: H0 I haven't heard rumours about a forthcoming CS3. Thanks, Tom.
		Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Bigdaddynz		#4 Posted : 30 March 2012 00:00:00(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,663 Location: New Zealand		Originally Posted by: H0 I haven't heard rumours about a forthcoming CS3. Oh, Dear Lord, Please........NO!
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river6109		#5 Posted : 30 March 2012 02:16:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,715 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		Originally Posted by: H0 It seems to be a special offer from Märklin - dealers can get 60215 at a reduced rate in April 2012. CS2s from starter sets are still cheaper. I haven't heard rumours about a forthcoming CS3. Tom, what are the chances Maerklin-ESU out doing each other ? John
		https://www.youtube.com/river6109 https://www.youtube.com/6109river 5 years in Destruction mode 50 years in Repairing mode
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nevw		#6 Posted : 30 March 2012 02:24:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC) Posts: 11,071 Location: Murrumba Downs QLD		esu v CS2 First of all ESU need to put an USB port on the ECOS and change the software so updates can be installed from the ECOS Menu (If selected) nn
		NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders and a hose pipe on the aorta Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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H0		#7 Posted : 30 March 2012 08:03:14(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: nevw First of all ESU need to put an USB port on the ECOS and change the software so updates can be installed from the ECOS Menu (If selected) Since I bought Powerline LAN adapters, I have no more hassle with CS1R (i.e. ECoS) updates. Would be easier if the ECoS could fetch the updates from the Web (like CS2 does), but that's a wish with low priority on my wish list. USB and loco cards do not compensate for usability issues in other areas, so I prefer my CS1R as it is over the CS2 as it is. John, Märklin may have found that the price of the CS2 is too high. RRPs: 60212: 579 € 60213: 699.95 € 60214: 749.95 € 60215: 799.95 € + 60061: 69.95 € ECoS 50200: 649.99 € RRP for ECoS with 90 VA power supply is 220 € below RRP for CS2 with 60 VA power supply. Many CS2s from starter sets on eBay, so street price of CS2 is way below RRP anyway.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Bahn-an-arama		#8 Posted : 30 March 2012 09:08:49(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/12/2007(UTC) Posts: 300 Location: Melbourne, Victoria		So what is everyones thoughts on what is going to outlast- CS2 or ECOS. I have been thinking and reading (aswell as on the forum) on which to buy, but am running myself around in circles. One minute, I think I will go for CS2 .......next minute.........ECOS. Best price I have gotten so far for CS2 60215 is 450 Euro +shipping (40 Euro) to Australia from SPIELWAREN HESS- this is excluding the MwST- I thought this was quite good. I bought the ICE MY WORLD set from him and the service was brilliant. Just waiting on prices for the ECOS. Please convince me either way fellow enthusiasts!!
		Glenn
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H0		#9 Posted : 30 March 2012 12:31:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: Bahn-an-arama So what is everyones thoughts on what is going to outlast- CS2 or ECOS. I don't know. IMHO it's more important which one better suits your needs. I can answer that for my needs, but not for your needs. Future development of software and repairs are important, but I don't know how stable both companies are.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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GlennM		#10 Posted : 30 March 2012 12:52:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 2,886 Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England		Just seen on Ebay Märklin 60215 + 60061 Central Station 2 + 60VA Transformer - £484 Seems a bargain Glenn
		Don't look back, your not heading that way.
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aos		#11 Posted : 30 March 2012 13:53:00(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 524 Location: Livingston, Scotland		As a lifetime member of the IT industry, all I am concerned about is that Marklin maintains software compatability between the new and previous CS products. All too often, I have seen software/hardware manufacturers make previous levels of hardware defunct by not making the new software backwards compatible. As my CS2 (60214) is not even six months old, I would be gutted if Marklin pulled the plug on future software updates. I believe in replacing equipment when it breaks, not when the supplier decides that he can sell more equipment by forcing customers to upgrade. I am looking forward to being able to play the sound from my locos through a decent audio system in the future. Alan
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steventrain		#12 Posted : 30 March 2012 14:39:21(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,606 Location: United Kingdom		Originally Posted by: H0 John, Märklin may have found that the price of the CS2 is too high. RRPs: 60212: 579 € 60213: 699.95 € 60214: 749.95 € 60215: 799.95 € + 60061: 69.95 € I paid 629 euro for 60213 back in October 2008.
		Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Western Pacific		#13 Posted : 30 March 2012 15:10:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC) Posts: 841 Location: Lidingö, Sweden		Originally Posted by: aos As a lifetime member of the IT industry, all I am concerned about is that Marklin maintains software compatability between the new and previous CS products. All too often, I have seen software/hardware manufacturers make previous levels of hardware defunct by not making the new software backwards compatible. As my CS2 (60214) is not even six months old, I would be gutted if Marklin pulled the plug on future software updates. I believe in replacing equipment when it breaks, not when the supplier decides that he can sell more equipment by forcing customers to upgrade. I am looking forward to being able to play the sound from my locos through a decent audio system in the future. Alan I agree that I do hope Märklin will have compatibility issues in mind. Then there is also another aspect which may come into play and that is availability of components. I know from when I worked for telecom equipment supplier Ericsson, that circuit boards had to be re-designed because some components weren't available anymore and this even if some people working with component supply managed to defer the re-design by "vacuuming the world market" for certain components. Then somebody may say can't you just swap one component for another? And the answer is not always. In particular if it is a component using or otherwise related to for instance clock pulses, then there is a very high probability that you as a manufacturer have to issue a new supplyers declaration of conformity with the EU EMC directive for the full product in order to sell it in EU (and EES countries and Switzerland) and this in most cases requires testing, in your own EMC laboratory, if you have one and the company is ISO 9000 certified or else you have to send it to an authorized EMC laboratory. For the US market, it may be that a renewed FCC approval is required as well.
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NZMarklinist		#14 Posted : 30 March 2012 16:59:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/03/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,757 Location: Auckland NZ		Hi All, Lokshop are listing CS2 at 579eu incl Mwst,. same price as Ecos 50200 (486.55 without Mwst) definitely a special offer However the CS2 price doesn't include a multi voltage power pack like the Ecos does
		Glen Auckland NZ " Every Marklin layout needs a V200, a Railbus and a Banana car", not to mention a few Black and red Steamers, oh and the odd Elok ! CS1 Reloaded, Touch Cab, C Track Modules, K track layout all under construction. Currently Insider
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Goofy		#15 Posted : 30 March 2012 17:41:01(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,012		One thing is so sure about digital system. They are being expanded and upgrade all the times for periods. It included even for shape of digital components.
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
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H0		#16 Posted : 30 March 2012 18:07:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: aos I would be gutted if Marklin pulled the plug on future software updates. They did that with MS1 and CS1. OK, different story as those devices came from a cooperation with ESU that was terminated.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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ac jacko		#17 Posted : 31 March 2012 03:17:00(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 09/04/2010(UTC) Posts: 897 Location: Gawler South Australia		Originally Posted by: Bahn-an-arama So what is everyones thoughts on what is going to outlast- CS2 or ECOS. I have been thinking and reading (aswell as on the forum) on which to buy, but am running myself around in circles. One minute, I think I will go for CS2 .......next minute.........ECOS. Best price I have gotten so far for CS2 60215 is 450 Euro +shipping (40 Euro) to Australia from SPIELWAREN HESS- this is excluding the MwST- I thought this was quite good. I bought the ICE MY WORLD set from him and the service was brilliant. Just waiting on prices for the ECOS. Please convince me either way fellow enthusiasts!! Bought the ECOS 50200 and the programmer as CS2 too high costs. Good to see a price war as users will be the winner here AJCKids have the ECOS 50200 at $699 US about $523 Euro
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Loadmaster		#18 Posted : 31 March 2012 05:59:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/02/2010(UTC) Posts: 898 Location: So Cal		May I throw a monkey wrench into this discussion? Does anyone know about the Viessmann "Commander"? http://www.viessmann-mod...ceManual_EN_v1-1_web.pdf Now we have three companies competing for our $$$. Rob
		HOac and Z scale running SBB/BLS Era IV-V
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Bahn-an-arama		#19 Posted : 31 March 2012 06:30:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/12/2007(UTC) Posts: 300 Location: Melbourne, Victoria		Quote: Bought the ECOS 50200 and the programmer as CS2 too high costs. Good to see a price war as users will be the winner here AJCKids have the ECOS 50200 at $699 US about $523 Euro Dale, have you received it yet? Bet you can't wait! I am still considering it. Both systems appear to have their advantages. The only reason why I am tending to go for the CS2 is: * price of 450 Euro * being able to use my current 60052 transformer and 6017 Booster ( I know you can you the 6017 booster with the ECOS but you have to rewire it to their special plug) * updating Marklin sound decoders through Marklin website directly using the CS2. Currently alot of dealers have these decoders on special to for 69 Euro incl. VAT- even cheaper without. So with the money save, I think I will order a couple of these too. You can also get High efficiency motor kits for about 20 Euro. See this website: http://www.meises-mobacenter.de/ Like you said, consumers are the winners, but i sometimes think we all MUST still support the Marklin mothership!! Edited by moderator 01 April 2012 11:18:32(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
		Glenn
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ac jacko		#20 Posted : 31 March 2012 06:53:11(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 09/04/2010(UTC) Posts: 897 Location: Gawler South Australia		True Glenn but I have purchased a lot of marklin and the ECOS is my preferred with the Loksounds installed on my loco's. Marklin need to drop some prices cheers
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Bahn-an-arama		#21 Posted : 31 March 2012 07:03:40(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/12/2007(UTC) Posts: 300 Location: Melbourne, Victoria		Originally Posted by: ac jacko True Glenn but I have purchased a lot of marklin and the ECOS is my preferred with the Loksounds installed on my loco's. Marklin need to drop some prices cheers Yes, certainly agree there with you Dale- the dealers here won't drop there prices that's for sure.
		Glenn
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H0		#22 Posted : 31 March 2012 07:32:14(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: Loadmaster Does anyone know about the Viessmann "Commander"? Different league: no mfx. It seems they tried to add mfx, but got no license. Forthcoming Z21 is also announced without mfx: www.z21.eu Tams also offer a controller - with limited support for mfx decoders (without automatic recognition). I never tried it, but it has enthusiastic supporters.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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H0		#23 Posted : 31 March 2012 07:35:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: Bahn-an-arama * being able to use my current 60052 transformer and 6017 Booster A 60052 does not have a stable output voltage, leading to strongly varying track voltage. I prefer switching-mode power supplies (no need to get them from Märklin). With a 6017 you'll have no mfx in the booster area and variable voltage.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Bahn-an-arama		#24 Posted : 31 March 2012 08:20:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/12/2007(UTC) Posts: 300 Location: Melbourne, Victoria		Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: Bahn-an-arama * being able to use my current 60052 transformer and 6017 Booster A 60052 does not have a stable output voltage, leading to strongly varying track voltage. I prefer switching-mode power supplies (no need to get them from Märklin). With a 6017 you'll have no mfx in the booster area and variable voltage. Tom, using the 6017 booster to power k-83 etc. turnouts, signals and accessories. I have not heard about stable output voltage problems with 60052- 60va transformers, thought these are stable in order to power CS2 etc.....??? Appreciate the info.
		Glenn
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H0		#25 Posted : 31 March 2012 09:34:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: Bahn-an-arama thought these are stable in order to power CS2 etc.....??? The output voltage of a transformer is 0, nil, nada, nothing at 100 or 120 times a second (depends on the mains frequency of 50 or 60 Hertz). So for up to nearly 10 ms current comes from a capacitor inside the CS (100 or 120 load cycles per second). With increasing track load, effective track voltage will go down. The 6017 has two capacitors that have to buffer up to nearly 20 ms (each gets 50 or 60 load cycles per second). With 6090/6090x decoders, speed of the train depends on the track voltage. Varying booster load => varying train speed. Test conducted with CS1 reloaded: https://www.marklin-user..._postsm278115_posts.aspx Edited by moderator 01 April 2012 20:43:02(UTC)  | Reason: Edited link to live forum instead of the test site /Webmaster
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Bahn-an-arama		#26 Posted : 31 March 2012 10:43:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/12/2007(UTC) Posts: 300 Location: Melbourne, Victoria		Tom, So you think I might be best to buy a 60215 with a supplied transformer- 60 va. Checked the Marklin website, their diagrams indicate the use of 60052. But i am not doubting your advice- I only want to make really sure so it can be combined with postage.
		Glenn
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tyrre		#27 Posted : 01 April 2012 10:31:06(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 17 Location: Uppsala, Sweden		Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: Bahn-an-arama * being able to use my current 60052 transformer and 6017 Booster A 60052 does not have a stable output voltage, leading to strongly varying track voltage. I prefer switching-mode power supplies (no need to get them from Märklin). With a 6017 you'll have no mfx in the booster area and variable voltage. Thanks for the info, Tom. I plan to buy a CS2 shortly but what source of power do you suggest? Is the 100VA (60101) transformer ok? Regards, /Magnus
		Recently converted from M to C track and from analog to digital locos but still on temporary occasional floor layouts and with many manual turnouts...
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H0		#28 Posted : 01 April 2012 11:42:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: tyrre Is the 100VA (60101) transformer ok? It's not a transformer, it's a power supply. Märklin say it's for 1 gauge only. Use 60061 for H0 if you don't want to risk the warranty.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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john black		#29 Posted : 01 April 2012 19:39:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Originally Posted by: H0 I haven't heard rumours about a forthcoming CS3. Oh, Dear Lord, Please........NO! By recalling M's myriad of digital controllers from the recent past (#60212, 60213, 60214, 60215) don't be surprised there'll be many more in the future ... talk about cash And now please remember a few years back when I predicted precisely this scenario. It been one of those topics where Mr. Super-Insider went haywire for my blasphemy ...
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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Webmaster		#30 Posted : 01 April 2012 21:06:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC) Posts: 11,161		John, the 60213-5 are basically the same controller "feature-wise"... The difference with 60215 and later 60214's is a hardware upgrade regarding output power, which it seems like the 60121/Ecos had from the start since the 3.0 ESU upgrade gives some extra oomph also to the 60212. The hw upgrade is a way to reach us "senior hobbyists" who don't care so much about the regulations regarding toy safety, a step that ESU had already made. However, the 60212 is still compatible as a unit in the Can bus network of 60215. also via direct network IP addressing without extra boxes. So I would say it is a kind of 6021/Intellibox situation - You can use the 60212 as an extra controller connected to 60215, as well as you can with 6021, so there is a backward compatibiliy available for those who wish to use it. I believe the 60212 power output can me used to control stuff not connected to the 60215 main power circuits, but still controlled by the total digital system. Since I have the 60215, I think it is more fun to use the iThingies to control the 60215 - but also use my old iPod Touch 1st gen with TouchCab to talk to the 60212 in the same network. Hmm, there was another topic about the philosophy of model train control... I must confess that I like the "electronics gadget" part of it.....
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Bahn-an-arama		#31 Posted : 02 April 2012 05:17:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/12/2007(UTC) Posts: 300 Location: Melbourne, Victoria		Gents, I read mixed info. on using 100W 60101, as it is recommended for Gauge 1 and not for HO. On other forums, some say it's ok and others are abit cautious. Came accross this very good deal- by far the best I have seen. http://kieskemper-shop.de/NEU-eingetroffen-60215-Maerklin-Central-Station-5-A---60101-Schaltnetzteil-100-VA---Bus--Lokkarten/a41321766_u1160_zc86854be-468a-4ee1-aa95-64789c21283f/ Does anyone think it would be better with the intended 60va ( which alot of dealers haven't got at present due to production)?? Would it be ok running here in Australia under 240V instead of 230V? Thanks for any help.
		Glenn
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tyrre		#32 Posted : 02 April 2012 06:37:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 17 Location: Uppsala, Sweden		Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: tyrre Is the 100VA (60101) transformer ok? It's not a transformer, it's a power supply. Märklin say it's for 1 gauge only. Use 60061 for H0 if you don't want to risk the warranty. Thanks for the info. I have not read anywhere that the 100VA power supply would void the H0 warranties. I thought that power supply would be the main reason to buy a CS without a starter pack since that would postpone the need for a booster. /Magnus
		Recently converted from M to C track and from analog to digital locos but still on temporary occasional floor layouts and with many manual turnouts...
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tyrre		#33 Posted : 02 April 2012 06:44:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 17 Location: Uppsala, Sweden		Originally Posted by: H0 It seems to be a special offer from Märklin - dealers can get 60215 at a reduced rate in April 2012. CS2s from starter sets are still cheaper. I haven't heard rumours about a forthcoming CS3. Agree that the Mega starter pack(s) are bargains. The problem now is that it seems that the current mega starter does not sell any longer and the coming (2012) has not yet been produced so there is a bit "mega vacuum" right now... /Magnus
		Recently converted from M to C track and from analog to digital locos but still on temporary occasional floor layouts and with many manual turnouts...
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Mafi		#34 Posted : 02 April 2012 21:42:49(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/04/2007(UTC) Posts: 109 Location: NRW, Germany		Originally Posted by: steventrain I have see on ebay/lokshop and other top dealers special offer on CS2 under 600 euro. Hi folks, this was the price of the barebone 60215 at Göppingen Erlebniswelt on March 31st, 2012: 499 ears... Cheers Mafi
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GSRR		#35 Posted : 02 April 2012 23:03:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/03/2009(UTC) Posts: 1,339 Location: USA		Originally Posted by: tyrre Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: tyrre Is the 100VA (60101) transformer ok? It's not a transformer, it's a power supply. Märklin say it's for 1 gauge only. Use 60061 for H0 if you don't want to risk the warranty. Thanks for the info. I have not read anywhere that the 100VA power supply would void the H0 warranties. I thought that power supply would be the main reason to buy a CS without a starter pack since that would postpone the need for a booster. /Magnus Look in this post for the link concering what Maerklin says about 60101 and H0. https://www.marklin-user...actory-Announcement.aspx r/Thomas
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Bigdaddynz		#36 Posted : 03 April 2012 01:00:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,663 Location: New Zealand		Originally Posted by: tyrre I have not read anywhere that the 100VA power supply would void the H0 warranties. Read the factory announcement from Marklin re the 60101, which is attached to post #2 in the following thread: https://www.marklin-user...-with-the-60101-PSU.aspx
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tyrre		#37 Posted : 04 April 2012 08:58:37(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2011(UTC) Posts: 17 Location: Uppsala, Sweden		Thank you both for the links. I have read those and it was good info. I hope you cope with my newbie questions . Regards, /Magnus
		Recently converted from M to C track and from analog to digital locos but still on temporary occasional floor layouts and with many manual turnouts...
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jeehring		#38 Posted : 04 April 2012 11:26:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		Originally Posted by: tyrre Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: tyrre Is the 100VA (60101) transformer ok? It's not a transformer, it's a power supply. Märklin say it's for 1 gauge only. Use 60061 for H0 if you don't want to risk the warranty. Thanks for the info. I have not read anywhere that the 100VA power supply would void the H0 warranties. I thought that power supply would be the main reason to buy a CS without a starter pack since that would postpone the need for a booster. /Magnus The most important points we have to read are: 1/ ..."majority of layouts are wired with 14 mm² or 19 mm² wires (cross section)....most of the train enthusiasts are not specialists in electricity "... 2/ ..."for legal reasons we...bla bla etc..etc..." I find the Marklin announcement absolutely normal. We have to remind that the risk is less about frying the CS2 ( no /almost no risk, I think...please correct me if I'm wrong) The risk is more about frying some items such as turnouts, locomotives, wagons, rails, decoders, wires, even the whole park of loks on the layout and entire parts of layout, etc...Marklin just don't want a horde of enthusiasts accusing the CS2 & the Cie to be responsible of having fried thousands & thousands of items and asking for a warranty & repayment of fried items, just because users forgott to change a piece of wire somewhere on their layout... Many HO train enthusiasts have been using 5 Amps boosters (from Lenz, Tams, etc...) for years without troubles : but they know what they do (they use correct wires as well...)... We also have to admit that the risk of having a short on track consecutively to a derailment is a little bit higher on 3 rails track than on 2 rails track. On another hand, I believe we have less derailments with Marklin "track & wheels system" than with other more delicate systems... But short doesn't occure only with derailments...
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Western Pacific		#39 Posted : 04 April 2012 13:07:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC) Posts: 841 Location: Lidingö, Sweden		Originally Posted by: jeehring Originally Posted by: tyrre Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: tyrre Is the 100VA (60101) transformer ok? It's not a transformer, it's a power supply. Märklin say it's for 1 gauge only. Use 60061 for H0 if you don't want to risk the warranty. Thanks for the info. I have not read anywhere that the 100VA power supply would void the H0 warranties. I thought that power supply would be the main reason to buy a CS without a starter pack since that would postpone the need for a booster. /Magnus The most important points we have to read are: 1/ ..."majority of layouts are wired with 14 mm² or 19 mm² wires (cross section)....most of the train enthusiasts are not specialists in electricity "... 2/ ..."for legal reasons we...bla bla etc..etc..." I find the Marklin announcement absolutely normal. We have to remind that the risk is less about frying the CS2 ( no /almost no risk, I think...please correct me if I'm wrong) The risk is more about frying some items such as turnouts, locomotives, wagons, rails, decoders, wires, even the whole park of loks on the layout and entire parts of layout, etc...Marklin just don't want a horde of enthusiasts accusing the CS2 & the Cie to be responsible of having fried thousands & thousands of items and asking for a warranty & repayment of fried items, just because users forgott to change a piece of wire somewhere on their layout... Many HO train enthusiasts have been using 5 Amps boosters (from Lenz, Tams, etc...) for years without troubles : but they know what they do (they use correct wires as well...)... We also have to admit that the risk of having a short on track consecutively to a derailment is a little bit higher on 3 rails track than on 2 rails track. On another hand, I believe we have less derailments with Marklin "track & wheels system" than with other more delicate systems... But short doesn't occure only with derailments... Small typo, but important: Should read 0.14 or 0.19 mm² wires in "1/". (A 14 mm² wire would have a diameter of over 4 mm and 19 mm² close to 5 mm) (In my house the wires are 1.5 mm² for 230 V with 10 A fuses and 2.5 mm² for 400/230 V with 16 A fuses [for equipment connected to three phases]).
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jeehring		#40 Posted : 04 April 2012 14:38:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Small typo, but important: Should read 0.14 or 0.19 mm² wires in "1/". (A 14 mm² wire would have a diameter of over 4 mm and 19 mm² close to 5 mm) (In my house the wires are 1.5 mm² for 230 V with 10 A fuses and 2.5 mm² for 400/230 V with 16 A fuses [for equipment connected to three phases]). yes you are right, that's important ... Thank you However I think a slightly oversized wire as a general feeder is right...1mm² for general feeder & 0.75mm² for secondary feeders should be OK ...I wonder if there is a real problem for a train layout if wires are too much oversized , for instance 2 or 3 mm² or more ?
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dntower85		#41 Posted : 04 April 2012 15:30:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,218 Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA		Originally Posted by: Bahn-an-arama So what is everyones thoughts on what is going to outlast- CS2 or ECOS. I have been thinking and reading (aswell as on the forum) on which to buy, but am running myself around in circles. One minute, I think I will go for CS2 .......next minute.........ECOS. Best price I have gotten so far for CS2 60215 is 450 Euro +shipping (40 Euro) to Australia from SPIELWAREN HESS- this is excluding the MwST- I thought this was quite good. I bought the ICE MY WORLD set from him and the service was brilliant. Just waiting on prices for the ECOS. Please convince me either way fellow enthusiasts!! Buy both, Ok that is my long term plan, I have the ECOS II and love it, but I also like many of the features of the CS2 and maybe if a CS3 comes out it will be even better. I will have to wait for a CS3 or 4 before I can afford another one. I never by the 1st version of anything so in truth the CS2 was marklins first CS since the CS1 was designed by ESU. I would like to see Marklin make a CS that is faster with an updated S88 buss system that is faster, With RailCom or better ( with either net cables ) maybe even separate the internal booster from the user interface and controls. I still always have a slight fear that every time I turn on my central station it could be the last time it runs, this is left over from the stories I heard about the CS1's and even my trusty 6021 that blew a transistor which added to those fears. If marklin could build something that is so robust, and will handle welding a boxcar to the tracks and power surges without a melt down that would speed up my buying plan.
		DT Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
1 user liked this useful post by dntower85		Bahn-an-arama
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Bahn-an-arama		#42 Posted : 04 April 2012 16:39:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/12/2007(UTC) Posts: 300 Location: Melbourne, Victoria		Bought CS2 with 100Va for 490 Euros- excluding VAT because of being an export shipmet. Thought this was a gr8 deal. So with the money saved, I purchased some ESu decoders and a selection of parts etc.. Thanks for your kind help and knowledge. I also question the dealer who has considerable knowledge and he has recommended rewiring all track feeders to 0.75mm2 wire- so I will be busy doing this before it lands!! Can't wait! CHeerz.
		Glenn
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Western Pacific		#43 Posted : 04 April 2012 17:09:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC) Posts: 841 Location: Lidingö, Sweden		Originally Posted by: jeehring Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Small typo, but important: Should read 0.14 or 0.19 mm² wires in "1/". (A 14 mm² wire would have a diameter of over 4 mm and 19 mm² close to 5 mm) (In my house the wires are 1.5 mm² for 230 V with 10 A fuses and 2.5 mm² for 400/230 V with 16 A fuses [for equipment connected to three phases]). yes you are right, that's important ... Thank you However I think a slightly oversized wire as a general feeder is right...1mm² for general feeder & 0.75mm² for secondary feeders should be OK ...I wonder if there is a real problem for a train layout if wires are too much oversized , for instance 2 or 3 mm² or more ? I agree fully with you that oversized wires should be OK. Märklin's concern was related to using the typical model railway cable dimensions and if you have long wires, then resistance will be a factor to count with and this could limit the current drawn from the CS and Power Supply in case of a short circuit and this may cause the short circuit protection to malfunction. (There isn't enough current drawn to make the short circuit protection "kick in", but still strong enough that it may cause damage). So you are right if you use oversized wires, then resistance would not be as high as with thinner wires and consequently short circuit protection should work. I have actually plans to use 1.5 mm² wires as "back-bone" feeders, because it is easily available in every building supply store in many different colours (even if I may have to bend Märklin's colour coding and replace red by orange and yellow by white. Otherwise I can get brown, blue, yellow/green and black everywhere) and not too bad in price either.
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jeehring		#44 Posted : 04 April 2012 17:42:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		Please, consider that retail prices in Europe (& in many other countries) are always expressed "complete" includings taxes, this is the law. The advantage of not paying VAT is not a gift from the retailer. I don't even talk about the confusion among customers...
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mike c		#45 Posted : 04 April 2012 17:58:51(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 7,892 Location: Montreal, QC		Originally Posted by: jeehring Please, consider that retail prices in Europe (& in many other countries) are always expressed "complete" includings taxes, this is the law. The advantage of not paying VAT is not a gift from the retailer. I don't even talk about the confusion among customers... The crediting of the VAT occurs because the goods are being exported and are thusly exempt from domestic taxes. The country of destination may assess and impose their own national and/or local taxes as well as any customs duties that may apply to merchandise being imported. Postal imports to Canada will be assessed 5% GST plus applicable Provincial tax, the total which can also be in the 13-16% range, the equivalent of the European tax that was exempted. Similar imports to the USA are more likely to arrive without any imposition of taxes or duties, as USPS does not collect state or local sales tax on imports. As this forum is open to people from all over the world, mentioning the ability to request a VAT/MWSt reduction is of interest to many of the members, who otherwise would pay up to 19% more than they are required to do. Regards Mike C
1 user liked this useful post by mike c		Joseph Meiring
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jeehring		#46 Posted : 04 April 2012 21:43:56(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		Originally Posted by: mike c Originally Posted by: jeehring Please, consider that retail prices in Europe (& in many other countries) are always expressed "complete" includings taxes, this is the law. The advantage of not paying VAT is not a gift from the retailer. I don't even talk about the confusion among customers... ...(...)... As this forum is open to people from all over the world, mentioning the ability to request a VAT/MWSt reduction is of interest to many of the members, who otherwise would pay up to 19% more than they are required to do. Regards Mike C "...mentionning the ability to request a VAT reduction beside the mention of the real retail price..." is different from "...advertising/announcing prices without the VAT..." Edited by user 05 April 2012 11:56:15(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Bahn-an-arama		#47 Posted : 05 April 2012 01:52:57(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/12/2007(UTC) Posts: 300 Location: Melbourne, Victoria		Originally Posted by: jeehring Please, consider that retail prices in Europe (& in many other countries) are always expressed "complete" includings taxes, this is the law. The advantage of not paying VAT is not a gift from the retailer. I don't even talk about the confusion among customers... I don't see why I cannot mention the price this way. As Mike C said, a considerable saving of 19% is naturally of benefit to many who view this forum from afar such as places like Australia, where we have limited dealers and no competition- so prices are at times extreme. The ability to save 109 Euro off the the 599 Euro advertised price at least helps towards postage costs ( which are typically higher to this part of the world ). I always ask Dealers and ebay dealers aswell whether they sell to Australia without VAT. The majority will without any issues. I was just stating this as a matter of info. for others on the forum that are typically from Australia/New Zealand. Cheerz.
		Glenn
1 user liked this useful post by Bahn-an-arama		Joseph Meiring
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Bigdaddynz		#48 Posted : 05 April 2012 02:39:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,663 Location: New Zealand		Originally Posted by: H0 I prefer switching-mode power supplies (no need to get them from Märklin). I have a Sony Laptop power supply that delivers 4.7 amps at 19.5 volts (roughly equal to 90va) which I'm going to try with my 60174 booster (My CS2 is the wrong hardware version for 5 amp output).
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H0		#49 Posted : 05 April 2012 08:08:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: Bahn-an-arama The ability to save 109 Euro off the the 599 Euro advertised price at least helps towards postage costs. If the price is 599 € incl. VAT, then it is 503.36 + 95.64 VAT (19 %), so the saving is "only" 95.64 when ordering from a German dealer (20 % VAT in Austria). Professional German dealers must always show the price incl. VAT at least as prominent as the price excl. VAT when they advertise to private German consumers. AFAIK it's no problem to show both prices, but IANAL.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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artvegas		#50 Posted : 13 April 2012 20:36:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/08/2010(UTC) Posts: 154 Location: Las Vegas, USA		Originally Posted by: Bahn-an-arama Bought CS2 with 100Va for 490 Euros- excluding VAT because of being an export shipmet. Thought this was a gr8 deal. So with the money saved, I purchased some ESu decoders and a selection of parts etc.. Thanks for your kind help and knowledge. I also question the dealer who has considerable knowledge and he has recommended rewiring all track feeders to 0.75mm2 wire- so I will be busy doing this before it lands!! Can't wait! CHeerz. Which dealer did you buy from? I am looking on ordering a 60215 from Germany and would like to get in on these low prices. Art
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