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Offline Laxman  
#1 Posted : 26 January 2012 19:01:42(UTC)
Laxman

United States   
Joined: 18/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 240
Location: South Carolina
Hi All

I am a newcomer to the site and was wondering exactly what the difference was between a C sine motor and a soft drive sine motor?

I apologize in advance if this has been addressed in the past. If it has is there a link to the topic?

Thanks

Dole
Offline Jay  
#2 Posted : 26 January 2012 19:58:08(UTC)
Jay

South Africa   
Joined: 01/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 289
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Hi all
May I piggyback on that query also. And please may I also ask what different marklin motor types there are and what is the difference.

Thanks
Jay
Offline RayF  
#3 Posted : 26 January 2012 20:07:12(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,770
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
There are three types of Marklin motor that are described as C-Sine.

The original "large" c-sine was about the size of the DCM motor and was mounted on a modified chassis block in the same location as the DCM motor it replaced. It was very smooth but too large to fit in a steam loco boiler.

This motor was replaced by the compact C-sine motor. This was much smaller and fitted in the boiler on steamers. In electrics and diesels it was mounted centrally in the chassis and drive to the axles was by worm drive and cardan shafts. The running characteristics were good in digital mode but not so good in analogue mode. It also suffered from changes in running speed with track voltage.

The compact C-sine was improved with better driver electronics and other physical modifications and re-badged as the SDS motor. This motor had none of the failings of the compact C-sine. It was still unpopular with DC operators, and Trix locos were not fitted with these.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Laxman  
#4 Posted : 26 January 2012 20:47:57(UTC)
Laxman

United States   
Joined: 18/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 240
Location: South Carolina
Ray

I assume that the C-sine and SDS motors are not repairable but simply have to be replaced (unlike the old DCM, SFCM, and LFCM motors that can easily be taken apart and have rotors, brushes, gears etc replaced)?

How do the SDS motors compare with the 'controlled high efficiency propulsion' motors? Is there only one type of high efficiency propulsion motor or are there different types? How does a can motor and fly wheel factor into this?
Offline dntower85  
#5 Posted : 26 January 2012 20:53:25(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
Both use a electric speed control on the decoder to pulse coil windings in a +/- sine wave to pull and push the permeate magnets along.

soft drive was basically a brush-less in-runner
It had a magnetic inner core with the poles of the rotor arranged in a spiral pattern to give exceptional slow speed torque and precision.

While the c-sine motors were brush-less out-runners
The design came form Hard drive motors,
The magnets are moved to an outer bell shaped rotating housing with the field coils held stationary in the inner part of the motor this also gives good torque but the revolving outer housing needed space.



brush-less in-runner
brush-less out-runners
are terms from the model airplane industry.

Marklin was ahead of the game when adapting this technology to a hobby, which caused some teething pains.
As the RC hobby makes tremendous head way with technology and cost these brush-less motors will likely return in the future.
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
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Offline dntower85  
#6 Posted : 26 January 2012 21:00:08(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
http://www.web-hgh.de/ppt-dl/C-Sinus.pdf
I found this it may be in German but the pictures explain a lot.
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 26 January 2012 21:11:26(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,770
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Laxman Go to Quoted Post
Ray

I assume that the C-sine and SDS motors are not repairable but simply have to be replaced (unlike the old DCM, SFCM, and LFCM motors that can easily be taken apart and have rotors, brushes, gears etc replaced)?

How do the SDS motors compare with the 'controlled high efficiency propulsion' motors? Is there only one type of high efficiency propulsion motor or are there different types? How does a can motor and fly wheel factor into this?


C-sine motors of all types have no brushes, no internal gears and no moving coils, so they are effectively maintenance-free. I guess if they do go wrong you have to replace the whole motor. This also applies to can motors.

High efficiency propulsion covers a multitude of sins. Marklin uses the term to mean that the decoders are load controlled and speed regulated. The term also implies that the motor is 5 pole, but this may not be true for all models.

Marklin also describe the better can motors in the high end models as "high efficiency". The motors made by Maxon and Faulhaber perform well compared to a C-Sine, especially when fitted with a flywheel.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 26 January 2012 21:11:55(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,260
Location: DE-NW
Here you can find a PDF about the SDS in English (scroll to the bottom):
http://www.maerklin.de/d...eine/softdrivesinus.html

"Based on its performance, it is the foundation for all future high end locomotives from Märklin in the H0 area and will win over the ambitious model railroader with the best of running characteristics." (That's what they wrote in 2007.)

I notice no difference between SDS and compact C-Sine with upgraded driver PCB.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline steventrain  
#9 Posted : 26 January 2012 21:19:53(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,394
Location: United Kingdom
Hi and Welcome to the forum, Dole.Smile
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline Jay  
#10 Posted : 26 January 2012 23:02:02(UTC)
Jay

South Africa   
Joined: 01/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 289
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Thanks Ray,DT,Tom for the explanation and thanks also to Dole for the question. Its now all clear as mud:-) but I'll get there.

Cheers
Jay
Offline Jay  
#11 Posted : 26 January 2012 23:20:41(UTC)
Jay

South Africa   
Joined: 01/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 289
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Please could anybody tell me which new marklin models have the soft sine motor.

Cheers
Jay
Offline Laxman  
#12 Posted : 26 January 2012 23:41:05(UTC)
Laxman

United States   
Joined: 18/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 240
Location: South Carolina
Thanks so much for the info. The pictures of the SDS drives in the links really help explain it.

Is a can motor brushless also? And I assume a can motor is a more advanced motor compared to the older DCM, SFCM, LFCM?

Dole
Offline Davy  
#13 Posted : 27 January 2012 00:57:32(UTC)
Davy


Joined: 29/08/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,915
Location: Netherlands
Originally Posted by: Jay Go to Quoted Post
Please could anybody tell me which new marklin models have the soft sine motor.

Cheers
Jay


None what so ever. The Germans did not like the SDS motor. So the SDS will disaapper. You will find it only in the br64, br 39,br23, the swiss croc and some other modells.
In most models the SDS is replaced with a Maxon our a can motor with flywheel and in the case of the V200 for the old 5 star engine.The new V200 is 40 euro cheaper then the versions with the SDS.

M-track with a CS2.
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Offline Laxman  
#14 Posted : 27 January 2012 05:50:02(UTC)
Laxman

United States   
Joined: 18/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 240
Location: South Carolina
Davy

Did they not like the running characteristics or the price?

Dole
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 27 January 2012 07:43:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,260
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Laxman Go to Quoted Post
Is a can motor brushless also? And I assume a can motor is a more advanced motor compared to the older DCM, SFCM, LFCM?
A "maintenance-free can motor" is a motor with brushes, but brushes cannot be replaced - you need a new motor if the brushes are used up or otherwise defective.
Can motors normally are more quiet than Märklin "High-efficiency propulsion" (HEP or DCM). But you never know: some DCMs are more quiet than some can motors.
Some say that DCM would be much more quiet if M* would de-grate the cog-wheels and the collector drums.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline TimR  
#16 Posted : 27 January 2012 10:15:48(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
You have been a member since:: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
...the compact C-sine. It was still unpopular with DC operators, and Trix locos were not fitted with these.


Some of the earliest (2007-8) Marklin-made Trix models, such as BR01, non-streamlined BR05, BR218, BR112, and BR18.3 use SDS motors.

DC operators mainly complained about C-Sine motor due to their uneven running in Analog mode - which still made up close to 50% of DC world.
But I think this is mainly because of PR problem. Ma-Trix wasn't honest enough to their DC customers that the Sinus are of better use in Digital mode.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline TimR  
#17 Posted : 27 January 2012 10:35:22(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
You have been a member since:: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Jay Go to Quoted Post
Please could anybody tell me which new marklin models have the soft sine motor.


SDS motor configuration emerged in 2007 - so every model with 39xxx suffix from 2007 to 2011 Marklin catalogue use this type of motor. There are also quite a number of trainsets (26xxx) and starter sets (29xxx) that comes with SDS motors also - usually because they come with the same model locos as the 39xxx models. Other than these, there are some models such as BR290, SVT04, T44 diesel with 37xxx suffix that are also equipped with such motor. 2005, 2006 and some 2007 models with compact Sinus motor are, as described by H0 above, are also upgradable to SDS standard.

As described above, the "large" C-Sine and SDS motor are the only truly maintenance free propulsion systems.
Not only that, SDS have superior pulling power compared to most other type of motors, and are also very quiet at low speed.
There is very miniscule chance that the motor or its corresponding driver board will ever broke down in buyers' hand.
It's a true futureproof concept really, compared to HEP (5-pole high efficiency) motor or a standard can motor with comparatively limited life expectancy.

Unfortunately, since 2010, we already grasp the idea that the Marklin management had decided to abandon the SDS concept.
So this year might be the last year that we see a new model with SDS motor from Marklin (set 26591).

This is due to the price of the SDS motor and the corresponding driver board - though these are only half the cost of the old "large" C-Sine motor & decoder, they are still comparatively more expensive than HEP or can motor concept.
Marklin had just emerged from bankruptcy, and thus the management were no longer willing to spend more money to continue expanding their 12-year-old Sinus Concept.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
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Offline ekollector  
#18 Posted : 16 February 2012 05:18:43(UTC)
ekollector

United States   
Joined: 07/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: West Chester, PA, USA
Hi
I'm also new to the forum. I'm planning to introduce myself shortly, once I have some pictures / and track plan of my layout.

Anyway, I have an issue related to the sine motors. I recently got the 39560 crocodile with C sine, and love how it performs. So I went ahead and ordered the 26410 Karlsruhe Train S-Bahn Prototype set, with a BR 141 that has SDS motor. The SDS is indeed just about silent, but at least my loco, doesn't accelerate / decelerate smoothly. Haven't tried adjusting breaking / acceleration delay yet (seems to be factory setting). I'm using the 6021 control unit. It seems like the loco is accelerating / decelerating in very distinct steps. Could I have a faulty decoder?
Thanks, Laszlo
Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 16 February 2012 09:12:01(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,260
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Laszlo!
Originally Posted by: ekollector Go to Quoted Post
It seems like the loco is accelerating / decelerating in very distinct steps.
I'd say that's the normal behaviour for early non-ESU mfx decoders.
And IIRC the BR E 41/141 was the first to receive this new type of decoders.

Gets a bit better with larger delays. Loco won't move at all if delay is too large (I use 16 seconds (value 64) for acceleration and 12 seconds (value 48) for deceleration - these values work for all locos but one (where I had to use smaller values)).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Laxman  
#20 Posted : 16 February 2012 23:24:43(UTC)
Laxman

United States   
Joined: 18/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 240
Location: South Carolina
Hey Tom

Could you explain this a bit more in detail. Is there anyway to know which loco's may have this type of decoder before actually purchasing them? Is it just the 2008 models or do other mfx decoders seem to have this problem?

I have been looking to get a couple more of the SDS locos with mfx that are still available as I have been generally happy with the SDS motor, but would not want to get one with potential decoder issues.

Thanks

Dole

Offline H0  
#21 Posted : 16 February 2012 23:43:12(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,260
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Laxman Go to Quoted Post
Is there anyway to know which loco's may have this type of decoder before actually purchasing them?
I'm afraid this is not possible.
While some 2009 models have the new MäTrix decoders, some 2011 models still have the "old" ESU decoders.
I just learned that e.g. the Big Boy 37993 was made with both types of decoders. So it seems that not even for one-time series you can be sure about the decoder you get.

And the MäTrix decoders are improving.

OTOH IMHO only the old fx decoders with mouse pianos (a.k.a. DIP switches) give really smooth acceleration/braking delays while all mfx decoders (even from ESU) have noticeable steps.

Try longer delays with your loco and don't expect other locos to be better.

When you decide on a specific model, you can ask here for user experiences.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Laxman  
#22 Posted : 17 February 2012 00:38:47(UTC)
Laxman

United States   
Joined: 18/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 240
Location: South Carolina
I assume the MaTrix decoders are the ones that replace the ESU ones since the 'split ' b/t M and ESU.

Does M make the MaTrix decoders or does someone else?
Offline ekollector  
#23 Posted : 17 February 2012 01:05:13(UTC)
ekollector

United States   
Joined: 07/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: West Chester, PA, USA
Hi Tom
Thanks for the advice, indeed it's much improved with longer delays. And as you say, still not as good as the old fx decoders with the dip switches. With the old decoders, one gets the feeling of accelerating a heavy loco, but with the ESU decoder, even with a long acceleration delay, it feels detached from the speed control input. Oh well. I really do like the C-sine with the old dip switch decoder (pre mfx) that's in my crocodile, and that's what's got me excited about getting more sine driven engines. Previously I thought they were overpriced, and I stuck with the high efficiency 5 pole motors. You can start to get them for a reasonable cost used now (and often new but second hand). Anyway, I'm starting to reconsider getting more. The funny thing is, that I kind of miss the noise of the 5 pole motor. It masked the sound of the wheels and the pick up shoe. I can see the advantage for steam engines with built in sound however. For electric and even diesel, I don't think the sound of the 5 pole motors is necessarily too bad.

Anyway, I'll keep a lookout for pre mfx sine driven locos.
Regards, Laszlo
Offline TimR  
#24 Posted : 17 February 2012 09:11:13(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
You have been a member since:: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Laxman Go to Quoted Post
I assume the MaTrix decoders are the ones that replace the ESU ones since the 'split ' b/t M and ESU.

Does M make the MaTrix decoders or does someone else?


Marklin make MaTrix decoders themselves to replace the ESU ones.

Digital issues had always been one of the primary problems for most in the average 3-railer forums.

When Marklin-Motorola system became obsolete compared to DCC, Marklin invented MFX system in cooperation with ESU, then proceeding to be wanting to become 3-rail customer's primary digital supplier (to block incoming DCC from conquering their 3-railers) - viewing ESU, as always, to be a potential future competitor.

Of course, by doing so, Marklin had also invented their own customer's problems with digital operation, in addition to just normal mechanical issues from their own model designs.

Other MRR manufacturers (Brawa, Roco, HAG, etc) - if they have too many issues from one decoder supplier (pricing, bugs, errors, etc) - can simply dump the supplier, putting most of the blame on them, then switch to another brand for better customer satisfaction.
Another benefit: they all rely on common DCC rather than self-made system.

Marklin had never wanted to have such luxuries.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline AshleyH  
#25 Posted : 17 February 2012 09:20:32(UTC)
AshleyH

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 683
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset
Laslo,

The other point to make is that you are using a 6021 digital controller. This is only going to provide you with 14 speed steps.
Using a more recent unit, such as an ESU ECOS, Marklin CS1 or CS2 will mean that you get 128 speed steps with MfX locos, which again would improve the smoothness of accelerant an braking.

Ashley
Offline ekollector  
#26 Posted : 23 February 2012 05:19:31(UTC)
ekollector

United States   
Joined: 07/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 11
Location: West Chester, PA, USA
Thanks Ashley, that is good to know as well.
I'm planning a slight revision for my layout, which will necessitate moving the control box and turnout switches. I wish I could both afford and justify the CS2 unit - as that would then allow me to use my iPad as a remote control. I again investigated the cost of upgrading all my turnouts to digital, and simply I would rather spend the money on other locos. Now that I've used this loco, I've grown used to it, and again with the longer delay it's not bad. I wouldn't hesitate getting another soft sine now.
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