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Offline BR01097  
#1 Posted : 03 November 2011 02:24:19(UTC)
BR01097

United States   
Joined: 17/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Denver, Colo. USA



Research has turned out rather limited results on the historic use of these coaches. Am I correct that they were developed in 1957? Were they ever used in service of the Orient Expresses in the years it remained? What about the destination plates ROMA-BASEL-KÖLN? That route must have had an official title, like Der Diplomat. What motive power and/or consist would have been suitable for that route?

I'm not really expecting answers to all of these questions, but inasmuch as I've collected a complete set of them, any information would be helpful.
File Attachment(s):
e814ff52a4a8a62a5200a9d05dbcd1dc.bmp (1,147kb) downloaded 132 time(s).

____________________________________________________________________________

Collector of Märklin fine-quality trains since 1966.




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Offline Macfire  
#2 Posted : 03 November 2011 09:56:58(UTC)
Macfire


Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Me too.
We have had 4 of them since the 1980's.
Only ever seen one photo of the real thing and it was a singleton mixed in with other coaches.
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
Offline kimballthurlow  
#3 Posted : 03 November 2011 10:29:55(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,071
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Hi S.,

Here is some information from my research.

Märklin model #4029 carries the running number 4581, and both the CIWL and ISG names on the headboard above the windows. The destination board reads Koln-Basel-Roma. I am not sure for what train this model was intended.

There was a Rome Express, one tentacle of the Orient Express offerings, which basically copied the route of the DRG/DB Rheingold.

This model 4029 does have a real prototype. 4581 was the first of the U class sleepers (often called reparations cars) built by German builders Hansa Waggonbau, Bremen, Germany, and Donauworth. 39 of these new 25.1 metre new design all-steel cars of Class U (Universal), in the traditional dark blue of the CIWL, were completed from 1957. They were designed with a particularly high roof line, to better use the space for multiple level bed arrangements.

This is my guess regarding reference to reparations. During WW2, many cars owned by CIWL were summarily sequestered where they were found by the advancing army, for use by the German hierarchy and military. At the end of WW2, many of these cars were located, many were not. Those missing had to be replaced, and it is possible that the bickering on who was going to pay and how, went on till it was settled in 1957. I guess the German Government paid for these cars to be built for CIWL.

regards
Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
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Offline Dreadnought  
#4 Posted : 12 November 2011 15:17:28(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 402
Location: Niagara, Ontario
A recent thread on train consists had a link to an outside net forum on that subject. One of the trains it mentionied was one from Scandinavia to Italy. It had pictures of a train running that route through Germany. That train had CIWL coaches and DSG coaches in the same train. (Not that I could see from the pictures, but the members seemed quite knowlegable)

This is good news for me, as I think the red DSG cars and the blue CIWL look good together, and my only dining cars are DSG.

As a child living in Paris in the late 1950's, I remember people took the "night train" from Paris to London. I think it used the blue CIWL U class. I always understood they were put on a specially equipped cross chanel steamer between Calais and Dover.
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Offline Alberto Pedrini  
#5 Posted : 12 November 2011 20:03:07(UTC)
Alberto Pedrini

Italy   
Joined: 02/07/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,446
Location: Italy
"Riviera Express" in the '70 realized by vintage coaches.
Author: Piero Chionna
Pics by Giorgio Stagni:

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Alberto

Marklinfan Club Italia
www.marklinfan.net
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Offline TrainIride  
#6 Posted : 09 December 2012 17:14:07(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,710
Location: FRANCE
Originally Posted by: kimballthurlow Go to Quoted Post
Hi S.,
Here is some information from my research.
Märklin model #4029 carries the running number 4581, ..
regards
Kimball


Hi friends,
just to add to the thread
this sleeping coach is a CIWL "U" type.
so hereafter, the real 4029 vs. the real 4581!!:
Regards
Joël



TrainIride attached the following image(s):
mn4029_ciwl_u_4581.jpg
ciwl_u_4581_left.jpg
mn4029_left.jpg
ciwl_u_4581_right.jpg
mn4029_right.jpg
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Offline TrainIride  
#7 Posted : 09 December 2012 20:18:14(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,710
Location: FRANCE
Some links to pictures of this kind of sleeping coach on the web:

1st picture
2nd picture
3rd picture
4th picture
5th picture
6th picture
7th picture

Regards
Joël
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Offline steventrain  
#8 Posted : 09 December 2012 20:50:32(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,394
Location: United Kingdom
Thanks for showing the pictures.Smile
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#9 Posted : 09 December 2012 21:19:32(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,041
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
Some links to pictures of this kind of sleeping coach on the web:

1st picture
2nd picture
3rd picture
4th picture
5th picture
6th picture
7th picture

Regards
Joël


Interesting to see that picture 1&2 seem to show it together with a swedish car 4072, more good excuses to mix rolling stock which otherwise would be considered inapropiate.LOL

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Offline Joseph Meiring  
#10 Posted : 09 December 2012 21:20:54(UTC)
Joseph Meiring

South Africa   
Joined: 27/12/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,157
Location: Western Cape Cape Town
Thank you Joel!
Joe
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Offline steventrain  
#11 Posted : 09 December 2012 21:27:16(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,394
Location: United Kingdom
The 4029 do not have a buffers.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
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Offline Western Pacific  
#12 Posted : 09 December 2012 23:33:27(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
Some links to pictures of this kind of sleeping coach on the web:

1st picture
2nd picture
3rd picture
4th picture
5th picture
6th picture
7th picture

Regards
Joël


Interesting to see that picture 1&2 seem to show it together with a swedish car 4072, more good excuses to mix rolling stock which otherwise would be considered inapropiate.LOL



Pictures 1 and 2 show the CIWL sleeping coach being pushed onboard (or pulled off) the Swedish train ferry Malmöhus, which served on a line between Malmö in Sweden and Copenhagen in Denmark from October 1945 to September 28th, 1974 with passenger trains and from then only with freight trains until the line was closed on September 30th, 1986. More photos of the ferry here. You can click the thumbnails to get to larger photos of the ferry. Sorry about this Internet page being in Swedish only, but perhaps the pictures could be of interest.

The Swedish coach in my mind is a WL3K photos here. Sorry about this Internet page being in Swedish only, but perhaps the pictures could be of interest. Note that the sleeping coach not having rounded roof ends is a former WL7 which had modified interior and therefore was called WL3. Coaches having a "K" were equipped with Danish train heating e.g. WL3K. On one of the photos there is a WL3T and the T stands for vacuum toilet system with a tank.

Märklin's 4072 is B1 and some photos in various liveries can be seen here.

Photos 1 and 2 were shot in Copenhagen.

Photo 3 and 5 are from København H - Copehagen's Main station.

Photo 6 is from Stockholm C - Stockholm's Central station - and my guess is that the train is on track 11.
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Offline Iamnotthecrazyone  
#13 Posted : 10 December 2012 00:11:06(UTC)
Iamnotthecrazyone

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,041
Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Iamnotthecrazyone Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
Some links to pictures of this kind of sleeping coach on the web:

1st picture
2nd picture
3rd picture
4th picture
5th picture
6th picture
7th picture

Regards
Joël


Interesting to see that picture 1&2 seem to show it together with a swedish car 4072, more good excuses to mix rolling stock which otherwise would be considered inapropiate.LOL



Pictures 1 and 2 show the CIWL sleeping coach being pushed onboard (or pulled off) the Swedish train ferry Malmöhus, which served on a line between Malmö in Sweden and Copenhagen in Denmark from October 1945 to September 28th, 1974 with passenger trains and from then only with freight trains until the line was closed on September 30th, 1986. More photos of the ferry here. You can click the thumbnails to get to larger photos of the ferry. Sorry about this Internet page being in Swedish only, but perhaps the pictures could be of interest.

The Swedish coach in my mind is a WL3K photos here. Sorry about this Internet page being in Swedish only, but perhaps the pictures could be of interest. Note that the sleeping coach not having rounded roof ends is a former WL7 which had modified interior and therefore was called WL3. Coaches having a "K" were equipped with Danish train heating e.g. WL3K. On one of the photos there is a WL3T and the T stands for vacuum toilet system with a tank.

Märklin's 4072 is B1 and some photos in various liveries can be seen here.

Photos 1 and 2 were shot in Copenhagen.

Photo 3 and 5 are from København H - Copehagen's Main station.

Photo 6 is from Stockholm C - Stockholm's Central station - and my guess is that the train is on track 11.


Yes the photos are certainly of interest, the 4072 was my first ever long passenger wagon when I was a kid so it always brings good memories. You are probably right about the WL3 but because photo 1&2 have no sufficient definition to enlarge that area it makes it hard to be certain. The only thing I seem to be sure of is that the SJ symbol seems to be the older round type. So I suppose then the WL3 shape is the prior swedish wagon made by Marklin in the 60's. I don't remember the number now but one of them was a mixed baggage/passenger car.
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Offline Dreadnought  
#14 Posted : 10 December 2012 05:15:09(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 402
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Thank you Joel for the wonderful pictures. They prompt me to confess a childhood secret.

One of the first coaches I was given was the CIWL Marklin 4029. I thought it beautiful. The blue and silver, with the CIWL crest looked like luxury on wheels. As I was slowly given more locomotives and coaches my imagination created international trains.

I used to start, in my mind, in Stockholm. I would use my Swedish DA (MArklin 3030) and its two coaches, 4030 and 4031. The blue CIWL struck a jarring note with regard to the colours, brown and blue, but the passengerns needed to get to Rome.

In my mind they would get to Germany, I don't know just where. There, the CIWL would be uncoupled from the Swedish coaches, and join a German train. It would be pulled by my 01, (Marklin 3048), if speed were the most important factor. It was my fastest locomotive. Otherwise my V 200, (MArklin 3021), or my weakest, and slowest "express" locomotive, my E 41, (MArklin 3034). Ths CIWL would be mixed in with DB blue express coaches, , (Marklin 4027, and 4032) a baggage car, (4026, and the DSG restaurant car, (4024 possibly, but with a pantograph). I liked the E 41, because it was blue, and the colours matched.

Through Germany (Via Koeln, naturally) then came Switzerland, and Basel (of course). There my Re 4/4 I, (MArklin 3014) took over. It might have been even faster then my BR 01. The DB coaches were dropped in Basel, and my Swiss coaches joined up. They were the Marklin 4015, with doors that would open, and the red dining car, 4035. This would speed on to the Italian border.

In Italy my E 424, (MArklin 3035 would take over. The Swiss coaches were dropped, and two 4036 Italian passenger coaches would join. Sometimes I would take pity on the passengers and leave the Swiss dining car coupled to it. Then it was on to Rome.

You may imagine when, early in its run on my basement floor, I was told it was not "prototypical", "wrong" even. That was when it became my childhood secret. It continued to run, but no one got to see it. I had doubts about my critics. I remember being in Basel station in 1960, and seeing the Italian, Swiss, and CIWL coaches. I knew they had to get there somwehow, and go onwards.

This thread has vindicated me. Now If only I knew where those friends of old are now. I would love to gloat!

Thank you for these pictures. They are superb!
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Offline Western Pacific  
#15 Posted : 10 December 2012 19:17:45(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Dreadnought, commenting on how the CIWL coach got from Sweden to Germany, I would say there were only two ways to get to Denmark, either the Malmö - Copenhagen ferry as shown in photos 1 and 2 or the Helsingborg - Helsingør ferry. In Denmark you could have added a couple of 4045 DSB coaches and pulled the train using a 3067 DSB class MY diesel or a 3045 class N steam engine and then depending on which year there are a number of possible ferry crossings that could have been used. Before 1951 it was via the Danish ferry line Korsør - Nyborg and the train would have reached Germany via the land border near Flensburg and then onward to Hamburg. From 1951 to 1963 it was via the ferry line Gedser in Denmark to Großenbrode in Germany and then onward to Hamburg. In 1963 this international ferry line was replaced by the ferry line Rødby in Denmark to Puttgarden in Germany, a ferry line that still is in operation, but work is ongoing to build a combined railway and motorway tunnel due to be ready later this decade. From Puttgarden the train could be hauled by a 3021 DB V200. (Ian can tell you what they look like. BigGrin ).

Somebody may point out that there was also the ferry lines Trelleborg (Sweden) - Sassnitz (GDR) and Gedser (Denmark) - Warnemünde (GDR), but it is worth noting that the CIWL coaches from Scandinavia went via Hamburg and not via GDR (or Berlin).
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Offline Dreadnought  
#16 Posted : 10 December 2012 20:15:28(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 402
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Thank you for the details. Obviously my parents were very neglectful. They should have given me the required DSB material. A Nohab, and some lovely red coaches. Happily at age 10 I made up my own routing and saved my parents the cost.

This has been a fascinating thread.
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Offline jvuye  
#17 Posted : 10 December 2012 21:05:46(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
Thank you for the details. Obviously my parents were very neglectful. They should have given me the required DSB material. A Nohab, and some lovely red coaches. Happily at age 10 I made up my own routing and saved my parents the cost.

This has been a fascinating thread.



...and you were right to let your imagination go, and make this trip up!

And those who told you "you are wrong"...were simply ignorants of the worse type: "I haven't seen it , so it doesn't exist" ThumbDown
The Scandinavia Switzerland Express started in 1949, on the Stockhom-Frankfurt Luzern and Zurich route.
In 1951 it was extended to Rome.
For the longest time and up to the end of the Sleeping Cars operation by CIWL in the 1980's, there was at least always one or two CIWL "Kurswagen" on the same route....and probably mixed along its route with other equipement *exactly* teh way you had imagined.
Let it be no secret no more: you were right!
Cheers

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline jvuye  
#18 Posted : 10 December 2012 21:07:29(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
Thank you for the details. Obviously my parents were very neglectful. They should have given me the required DSB material. A Nohab, and some lovely red coaches. Happily at age 10 I made up my own routing and saved my parents the cost.

This has been a fascinating thread.



...and you were right to let your imagination go, and make this trip up!

And those who told you "you are wrong"...were simply ignorants of the worse type: "I haven't seen it , so it doesn't exist" ThumbDown
The Scandinavia Switzerland Express started in 1949, on the Stockhom-Frankfurt Luzern and Zurich route, via Köln and Basel
In 1951 it was extended to Rome, via Gotthard and Milano
For the longest time and up to the end of the Sleeping Cars operation by CIWL in the 1980's, there was at least always one or two CIWL "Kurswagen" on the same route....and probably mixed along its route with other equipement *exactly* the way you had imagined.
Let it be no secret no more: you were right!
Cheers
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline Dreadnought  
#19 Posted : 10 December 2012 22:30:13(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 402
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Merci Jaques,
My indulgent and generous parents were correct not to overindulge me with DSB rolling stock. That said, now I know what I want Santa to bring me this year
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Offline TrainIride  
#20 Posted : 11 December 2012 10:58:21(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,710
Location: FRANCE
Well thank you Jacques, Dreadnought,Western Pacific, Joe, Stephen,and all

for feeding this thread with such nice informations.
That's so fascinating to know these coaches were travelling everywhere.
I suspected this a little when I discovered that "SOVEVOGN" meant "sleeping car" in Danish !

I've also now the reasons to justify purchases of Swiss, Italian, Danish,.. locos BigGrin
for pulling my 4029 consist.

Best Regards
Joël


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Offline jvuye  
#21 Posted : 11 December 2012 13:48:01(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
....
I've also now the reasons to justify purchases of Swiss, Italian, Danish,.. locos BigGrin
for pulling my 4029 consist.
....


That is a big progress...next step: no more feeling of guilt when you when you are feeling happy!
There is no need to*justify* anything except the pleasure of owning a new piece of equipment.

Cheers

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline TrainIride  
#22 Posted : 11 December 2012 19:00:46(UTC)
TrainIride

France   
Joined: 23/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,710
Location: FRANCE
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
....
I've also now the reasons to justify purchases of Swiss, Italian, Danish,.. locos BigGrin
for pulling my 4029 consist.
....


That is a big progress...next step: no more feeling of guilt when you when you are feeling happy!
There is no need to*justify* anything except the pleasure of owning a new piece of equipment.

Cheers



You're absolutely right Jacques !
Regards
Joël
Offline Dreadnought  
#23 Posted : 15 June 2014 20:23:37(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 402
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Last spring I was in the Basel main station. In the book store I found a book, Raritaten der Bundesbahn by Otto Humbach.
It has two articles about "Die grossen Expresszuge. It made me think of this thread. It has pictures of the originals, and models of interesting international overnight trains. To my delight there are at least two that combine CIWL coaches and DSG.
Now I am running the Ostende Wien Express, with Belgian, German, Austrian, DSG, and CIWL behind my old 01. A lovely tin plate collection.
Tomorrow will be the Riviera Express, with CIWL, DSG, FS, and DB. I wonder about adding a Swiss coach?
Next will be the Nord Express, alas it does not have a DSG car, but my new tin plate DSB will provide some colour. I can add some SNCF to the consist.
I just wish my German were better so I could read the article.
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Offline mike c  
#24 Posted : 16 June 2014 00:12:42(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,210
Location: Montreal, QC
CIWL sleeping cars could be found in many long distance trains from northern to southern Europe, whether it be Germany, Holland or Scandinavia to Italy, France or Spain. These coaches could also be found on trains from east to west, e.g. Amsterdam, Paris or Brussels to Vienna.

There is a forum dedicated to night trains with a lot of CIWL information: http://www.wagonslits.de/phpbb2/index.php

This site also has a lot of information on consists: http://www.heinrich-hank...ahn/zugbildung/index.htm

A night train from Scandinavia to the south would be as follows:
http://www.heinrich-hank...ildung/1956_db_00212.htm

The train would depart from Copenhagen with a mix of international coaches. If there was a stop at the last Danish station, it might also include domestic coaches or Danish coaches travelling to points along the way. At the first German station, German coaches would be added, some which would go all the way south, others which might only go as far as Basel or other intermediate points. The same would happen in Basel, as SBB or BLS coaches, depending on which route the train was taking to Italy would be added to the train. At the Italian border, Italian coaches might be added to the consist for the final segment.

It was also normal that night trains would have sleeping coaches going to assorted destinations. For example, the train from Scandinavia might have a section that was separated from the main train in Frankfurt and would go on to Paris or Munich or even all the way to Port Bou (Spain). Often times, the schedule of these trains meant that the Scandinavian train would meet the Amsterdam one and they would exchange coaches.

I don't have the 4029, I have the later 4130 and Primex 4110. I run them with the DB 4111, 4112 and baggage and additional FS coaches from the 00766 and 00796 set with my SBB 4068 diner and a single 4066 at the end.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#25 Posted : 16 June 2014 15:04:06(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,171
Location: Southwesternmost
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post

As a child living in Paris in the late 1950's, I remember people took the "night train" from Paris to London. I think it used the blue CIWL U class. I always understood they were put on a specially equipped cross chanel steamer between Calais and Dover.


Re. the specially equipped cross channel steamer between Calais and Dover:

https://www.marklin-user...ry-Tales.aspx#post448377

Re. the "night train" from Paris to London...used the blue CIWL U class:

https://www.marklin-user...your-MRR.aspx#post448378
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#26 Posted : 16 June 2014 15:10:12(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,171
Location: Southwesternmost
Originally Posted by: Western Pacific Go to Quoted Post

Pictures 1 and 2 show the CIWL sleeping coach being pushed onboard (or pulled off) the Swedish train ferry Malmöhus, which served on a line between Malmö in Sweden and Copenhagen in Denmark from October 1945 to September 28th, 1974 with passenger trains and from then only with freight trains until the line was closed on September 30th, 1986. More photos of the ferry


And more photos:

https://www.marklin-user...ry-Tales.aspx#post458625

https://www.marklin-user...ry-Tales.aspx#post449853


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Offline Alsterstreek  
#27 Posted : 16 June 2014 15:16:30(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,171
Location: Southwesternmost
And in case of interest for a prototypical consist of a Norwegian NOHAB diesel with red DSG tinplate sleepers

(= Maerklin 4064 / Maerklin 76604 / PRIMEX 4199):

https://www.marklin-user...your-MRR.aspx#post449883
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