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Offline RayF  
#1 Posted : 20 July 2011 13:33:59(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I'm looking at some 24cm sleeper coaches, to go with my other tinplate stock.

Does anyone know how and where the Marklin models 4029 and 4064 were used?

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Were they used in trains with 1st and 2nd class compartment coaches?
When would one type have been used instead of the other?
Would you have seen a few of these in a train, or just one?

Any info gratefully received!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Oscar  
#2 Posted : 20 July 2011 14:00:42(UTC)
Oscar


Joined: 25/11/2003(UTC)
Posts: 783
Location: ,
Hiya Ray! I collect all tinplate coaches with "cellonscheiben" and am lucky enough to own a perfect 4029.1. I believe there are still some coaches of this kind crisscrossing Europe, mostly in trains that bring people and their car to their holiday destination. Some operators still use a lot of older coaches. I couldn't find a photo on the web of this particular kind of coach, but there are plenty of pics of these kinds of train out there.

UserPostedImage

These trains have been running for decades, so an era III version is easily made by combining the 4029 with the 4027, 4024 and 4023. Hope this helps.
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Offline Markus Schild  
#3 Posted : 20 July 2011 15:41:01(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: RayPayas Go to Quoted Post

Were they used in trains with 1st and 2nd class compartment coaches?
When would one type have been used instead of the other?
Would you have seen a few of these in a train, or just one?

Any info gratefully received!


Hi Ray,

These cars were unsally used with Second and first class cars. Sometimes alone, I also know pictures with up to three cars.

You an find pictures of the red one in service on google with searching for "WLABmh".

The blue sleeper shows an "Universal Hansa" Type. Some picture can be found here: http://www.railfaneurope.../pix/CIWL/WL/UH/pix.html . The Marklin-Car was in the pool of the DSB, and was mostly used between Amsterdam and Kopenhaven together with NS and DSB Cars.

The Blue, international cars were found all over Europe, the red DSG-Cars in trains inside Germany, and from and to Germany.

Regards

Markus
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Offline RayF  
#4 Posted : 20 July 2011 16:02:45(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Thanks, Oscar and Markus.

Very useful information.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline RayF  
#5 Posted : 20 July 2011 18:56:33(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I've bought one of each of these cars, 4029 and 4064, on ebay.

I have yet to decide how I'm going to run them. At the moment I'm thinking I might run them both in one train, together with a restaurant car (4024) and a baggage car (4026).

As a fictional back-story, they could be a tourist special (as suggested by Oscar) heading to Copenhagen on a package deal to visit Tivoli Gardens. Does this sound feasable?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Dreadnought  
#6 Posted : 20 July 2011 20:09:28(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 418
Location: Niagara, Ontario
I recall seeing the blue CIWL cars in Basel main station in the late 1950's and early 1960's. They were with green DB coaches, and the two tone brown Italian (FS) cars. I cannot recall the destination boards.
I thought the blue CIWL coaches looked very "posh" and mounted a campaign, ultimately successful, to have my father buy me one. My Marklin one has a destination board, " Roma Basel Koln". I received it in 1961. I assume that was the route they did
I believe the TEN (Trans Europe Nacht) began about 1971 or 1972.

Would CIWL and DSG red sleeper coaches have been together in the same train?
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Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 20 July 2011 20:17:49(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Thanks Dreadnought.

quote: Would CIWL and DSG red sleeper coaches have been together in the same train?

If anyone knows the answer to this I would be grateful to find out!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Markus Schild  
#8 Posted : 20 July 2011 20:41:36(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: RayPayas Go to Quoted Post
Would CIWL and DSG red sleeper coaches have been together in the same train?

If anyone knows the answer to this I would be grateful to find out!


Hi Ray,

At least in 1965 the "Austria-Express" from Klagenfurt to Hoek van Holland had an DSG-car on the one end, one CIWL-car in the middle and one on the other end. The other cars were 1st and 2nd class cars, from Germany, Austria and the Netherlands, one baggage car and one post-car. But no restaurant.

Regards

Markus
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#9 Posted : 21 July 2011 03:26:48(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,655
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: RayPayas Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Dreadnought.

quote: Would CIWL and DSG red sleeper coaches have been together in the same train?

If anyone knows the answer to this I would be grateful to find out!


Hi Ray,
I have done a little research on the Orient Express (CIWL - Compagnie des Wagon-Lits et des Grande Express Europeens), for whom the U type cars were built in 1958/59 as reparation for so many that were destroyed/lost/stolen during WWII. It is necessary when looking at this question, to separate CIWL operated cross-border trains (there were quite a few Orient Express, with varying departure/destination points), from locally arranged trains in any part of Europe.

I have never found a definitive answer, but I believe the contractual arrangements between CIWL being allowed to traverse say German and Austrian rail, absolutely precluded a DSG car travelling in a CIWL train within Germany/Austria. I tended to find that extreme jealousies and rivalry existed between sleeping/refreshment companies, no doubt because of the profits involved. That said, it is probable that CIWL cars were "loaned/hired" for use on other international or intra-national trains, in which case never say never. CIWL trains for example often included ordinary 1st or 2nd class coaches/couchettes from OBB, SNCF, NSB and NS as a matter of course. For this, we have photo evidence.

Having said all that, like any large conglomerate arrangements, I found the ownership and operation of the CIWL, extremely shadowy. Which probably explains why the mysteries imagined by Agatha Christie and others seemed so real and pithy.

I believe the 4029, of which I own one, to be quite a realistic U type model.

regards
Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline Dreadnought  
#10 Posted : 21 July 2011 15:04:44(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 418
Location: Niagara, Ontario
In the book, "The Orient Express", Anthony Burton, Chartwell Books, 2001, the author mentions that in 1920 CIWL got running rights through Austria. Germany remained largely the preserve oof MitEuropa. I think MitEuropa necame, or was DSG. As a result CIWL could not run in Germany, with one or two exceptions, I.E. Hook of Holland to Vienna.

Apparently before WW 1 CIWL did all the routes, Paris St. Petersburg, Orient Express etc.

I gather that feud was one of the spin offs from the Treaty of Versailles.

Did that continue until the creation of TEN?

I would like to run my red DSG sleeper and kroner with my blue CIWL. It makes for a colourful train pulled by my 220 or 216 diesel
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Offline RayF  
#11 Posted : 21 July 2011 16:50:17(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
In the book, "The Orient Express", Anthony Burton, Chartwell Books, 2001, the author mentions that in 1920 CIWL got running rights through Austria. Germany remained largely the preserve oof MitEuropa. I think MitEuropa necame, or was DSG. As a result CIWL could not run in Germany, with one or two exceptions, I.E. Hook of Holland to Vienna.

Apparently before WW 1 CIWL did all the routes, Paris St. Petersburg, Orient Express etc.

I gather that feud was one of the spin offs from the Treaty of Versailles.

Did that continue until the creation of TEN?

I would like to run my red DSG sleeper and kroner with my blue CIWL. It makes for a colourful train pulled by my 220 or 216 diesel


It looks like my sleeper train is going to be the Hook of Holland to Vienna service! BigGrin

It will be diverted via Talheim, of course, due to engineering works on the main line.

BTW, I was also thinking of pulling this train with a 220 or 216.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Markus Schild  
#12 Posted : 29 July 2011 14:37:39(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi Ray,

I just found this picture, which shows a typical train with a sleeper of the Marklin-type in the 1970s:

http://www.bundesbahnzei...Schnellzuglok/bild26.htm

Post - baggage - 1st class - sleeper - 2.nd class...

Regards

Markus
Offline 60904  
#13 Posted : 29 July 2011 15:53:30(UTC)
60904

Germany   
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 312
Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Go to Quoted Post
Hi Ray,

I just found this picture, which shows a typical train with a sleeper of the Marklin-type in the 1970s:

http://www.bundesbahnzei...Schnellzuglok/bild26.htm

Post - baggage - 1st class - sleeper - 2.nd class...

Regards

Markus


Hi Markus,
It is Post, baggage, 2nd Couchette (DB Liegewagen blau), Sleeper,...Blink
Greetings
Martin
Offline Markus Schild  
#14 Posted : 29 July 2011 16:42:02(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: 60904 Go to Quoted Post


Hi Markus,
It is Post, baggage, 2nd Couchette (Liegewagen blau), Sleeper,...Blink


Hi Martin,

Actually you are right. But this is a tin-plate thread. So there is no choice, it must be a 1st class. RollEyes

Regards

Markus
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Offline RayF  
#15 Posted : 29 July 2011 19:08:22(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Very useful, guys! ThumpUp

Thanks!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline 60904  
#16 Posted : 29 July 2011 20:51:07(UTC)
60904

Germany   
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 312
Yeah, you may use a 4027/4051 as a couchette although the 4051 has a very bright 1st class marking. So I would recommend the 4027. You could also use a 4033, the old ÖBB Couchette or the replica.
Instead of offering the baggage and the two 1st and 2nd class coaches Märklin should have offered versions that had not been done before, e.g. a DB couchette on the basis of 4022/4052.
Greetings
Martin
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Offline mike c  
#17 Posted : 30 July 2011 02:38:24(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Keep in mind that many trains consisted of various segments that were detached from the main train at a stop along the way, either because those coaches terminated at that station or because they were attached to another train to continue to a destination other than the main body of the original train. For example, the Holland-Italy Express south of Basel consisted of coaches assembled from the original Amsterdam to Rome consist, along with added German, French and Swiss coaches, some of which were to go all the way to Rome, others that went as far as Chiasso (Swiss border with Italy). On such trains, it would have been possible to find a CIWL sleeper (from Amsterdam) on the same train as a DSG Sleeper (from Hamburg) along with other coaches.
Same could be said for the Amsterdam - Scandinavia trains as they could potentially have picked up some coaches from other start points (Paris, Geneva/Zuerich/Basel, Italy, Munich, Austria, etc) as the train moved east and then north through Germany.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline 60904  
#18 Posted : 30 July 2011 10:52:29(UTC)
60904

Germany   
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 312
That's absolutely right Mike. All this has more or less disappeared. There are hardly any nighttrains.
Greetings
Martin
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Offline Jimmy Thompson  
#19 Posted : 23 May 2020 13:32:46(UTC)
Jimmy Thompson

United States   
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 587
Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
Resurrecting this neat thread of an intricate tapestry...and maybe too far out 'era-wise' from the previous notes...but following on from the "Austria-Expreß" line above:

UserPostedImage
"Railtour cars attached to the Austria-Express, Mallnitz 1985 (Hans Kohut)"

from:
https://trains-worldexpresses.com/600/620.htm

If you happen to have the 4118/4119 tinplate SNCB Railtour coaches (as I have 1), you can add them into the mix BigGrin

Edited by user 24 May 2020 12:19:17(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; BR 111; KLVM; Primex; Sarrasani Zirkuswelt
There is a Prototype For Everything
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