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Offline Armando  
#1 Posted : 16 January 2011 20:36:41(UTC)
Armando

United States   
Joined: 21/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,350
Location: Houston, Texas
http://www.maerklin.com/...ch%2Fproduct_search.html

I have a couple of questions on the 23 001 for those knowledgeable about prototypes, and I have not been able to find this information on the Internet:

1) Is it documented if the 23 001 locomotive (the first one built in the series) ever was equipped with commands for the push-pull operation of suburban Silberlinge trains? Märklin suggests that the Era III Silberlinge can be used with the 23 001 (there is even a leaflet included in the box where this is shown).

2) Wouldn't it be more correct to think that the first locomotives that were built in the series were used either with new D-Zug-Wagen or with rebuilt cars, or even with any other cars stemming from eras I and II, still in good condition? Could it be that it was only in Era IV, when there were newer and faster locomotives, that the BR 23 were "downgraded" to push suburban trains?

3) If Silberlinge were used with BR 23 001, what headlight changes are required on the locomotive when she is pushing the train? I've never seen steam locomotives equipped with red marker lights. Are all headlights on the locomotive (front and back) supposed to be off if the locomotive is pushing the train? In this case, of course, the headlights on the cab car will be set to white.

Thanks in advance for your input.
Best regards,
Armando García

Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 16 January 2011 22:05:29(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
I can't answer all questions.

But BR 23 was rather slow (max. speed 110 km/h). So I think that other locomotives were used for express trains.
Express trains normally had longer runs and were pull-only trains in that times.

Silberlinge were used for many pull-only trains.

In era III/IV trains were running without lights during daylight. Exception was the control car of a pushed train.
AFAIK only a red/white sign was required at the end of a train.

According to Wikipedia, 16 locomotives of BR 23 were equipped for push/pull trains.

This thread on DSO states that the push/pull equipment was moved from loco to loco within BR 23:
http://www.drehscheibe-f...d.php?17,4454231,4454231

Another post on DSO states that many BR 23 locos inherited the push/pull equipment from BR 78 locos that went out of service (around 1968).
The Märklin model 39230 shows the state of 1958.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Western Pacific  
#3 Posted : 16 January 2011 22:23:32(UTC)
Western Pacific

Sweden   
Joined: 19/09/2009(UTC)
Posts: 841
Location: Lidingö, Sweden
Originally Posted by: Armando Go to Quoted Post
http://www.maerklin.com/en/service/search/details.html?lang=en&page=&perpage=10&level1=3928&level2=3930&artnr=&art_nr=39230&search=1&era=0&gaugechoice=0&groupchoice=0&subgroupchoice=0&catalogue=0&features=0&searchtext=br+23&backlink=%2Fwww.maerklin.com%2Fen%2Fservice%2Fsearch%2Fproduct_search.html

I have a couple of questions on the 23 001 for those knowledgeable about prototypes, and I have not been able to find this information on the Internet:

1) Is it documented if the 23 001 locomotive (the first one built in the series) ever was equipped with commands for the push-pull operation of suburban Silberlinge trains? Märklin suggests that the Era III Silberlinge can be used with the 23 001 (there is even a leaflet included in the box where this is shown).

2) Wouldn't it be more correct to think that the first locomotives that were built in the series were used either with new D-Zug-Wagen or with rebuilt cars, or even with any other cars stemming from eras I and II, still in good condition? Could it be that it was only in Era IV, when there were newer and faster locomotives, that the BR 23 were "downgraded" to push suburban trains?

3) If Silberlinge were used with BR 23 001, what headlight changes are required on the locomotive when she is pushing the train? I've never seen steam locomotives equipped with red marker lights. Are all headlights on the locomotive (front and back) supposed to be off if the locomotive is pushing the train? In this case, of course, the headlights on the cab car will be set to white.

Thanks in advance for your input.


Related to 3) In some cases there was just a red circular piece of glass put in from of the white lamp. Whether this was used with the 23 I don't know.
Offline Armando  
#4 Posted : 17 January 2011 00:35:08(UTC)
Armando

United States   
Joined: 21/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,350
Location: Houston, Texas
Thanks for your replies!

One of the links that I found on the Drehscheibe forum that Tom provided has a very enlightening picture: it shows a BR 23 pulling a Suburban train and moving tender-first. The 3 lights on the tender are burning brighlty on! And logically, 2 marker lights would've been lit on the cab car at the end of the train.

http://www.nicospilt.com/duitsland_023.htm

The picture can be found about the middle of the page. (Wonderful pictures by the way!)

This furthermore leads to the conclusion that the Märklin model 23 001 could be used as a "pull" locomotive, either head-first or tender first (running in reverse direction), but only as a "push" locomotive, during day time, as the lights on the tender would have to be switched off when the cab car is heading.

Maybe someone who's also purchased the Wendezug era IV set with the BR 023 and the Silberlinge will be able to clarify how Märklin addressed this issue on the locomotive. All I was able to understand from the notes is that the headlight change would take place automatically for the push-pull operation. But what exactly happens to the front or rear lights on the BR 23 remains a mystery to me.
Best regards,
Armando García

Offline TimR  
#5 Posted : 17 January 2011 01:06:27(UTC)
TimR

Indonesia   
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,752
Location: Jakarta
Marklin set 26543 has the Silberlinge coaches coupled in front of the BR23.
By default, it will go tender first when pulling the train - 3 white lights on the tender on, 2 red lights on the cab car.

When pushing the train, 3 white lights on the cab car will be on. No lights on the tender of BR23.

Pretty sure you can change the mapping, or add a function to turn on the light of the tender in opposite direction..

But I don't think you can switch the lok the other way around.. BR23 facing forward when pulling the silberlinge, as it has the power pickup change feature.

M39230 / 39235 + standard silberlinge combo is more flexible in operation, particularly if you don't like a steamer pulling a train backwards.
Now collecting C-Sine models.
Offline BR01097  
#6 Posted : 10 February 2011 05:32:40(UTC)
BR01097

United States   
Joined: 17/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 228
Location: Denver, Colo. USA
Originally Posted by: Armando Go to Quoted Post
http://www.maerklin.com/en/service/search/details.html?lang=en&page=&perpage=10&level1=3928&level2=3930&artnr=&art_nr=39230&search=1&era=0&gaugechoice=0&groupchoice=0&subgroupchoice=0&catalogue=0&features=0&searchtext=br+23&backlink=%2Fwww.maerklin.com%2Fen%2Fservice%2Fsearch%2Fproduct_search.html

I have a couple of questions on the 23 001 for those knowledgeable about prototypes, and I have not been able to find this information on the Internet:

1) Is it documented if the 23 001 locomotive (the first one built in the series) ever was equipped with commands for the push-pull operation of suburban Silberlinge trains? Märklin suggests that the Era III Silberlinge can be used with the 23 001 (there is even a leaflet included in the box where this is shown).

2) Wouldn't it be more correct to think that the first locomotives that were built in the series were used either with new D-Zug-Wagen or with rebuilt cars, or even with any other cars stemming from eras I and II, still in good condition? Could it be that it was only in Era IV, when there were newer and faster locomotives, that the BR 23 were "downgraded" to push suburban trains?

3) If Silberlinge were used with BR 23 001, what headlight changes are required on the locomotive when she is pushing the train? I've never seen steam locomotives equipped with red marker lights. Are all headlights on the locomotive (front and back) supposed to be off if the locomotive is pushing the train? In this case, of course, the headlights on the cab car will be set to white.

Thanks in advance for your input.



The experts rolled out a model of the BR23 in 1954 by which time only a few of its proto-type actually was seeing service on the rails. Experts wrote, "they are used for medium and heavy passenger trains of moderate speed, for light express trains and for freight trains...high backward speed also permits these locomotives to be used for heavy urban and interurban traffic in place of the tank locomotives."

German rail network was in tatters after WWII, with much of its rolling stock destroyed and locomotives bombed. The DB designed BR23 for the universality of the Diesel, which they did not have the capacity build as quickly and reliably in those factories that remained to suit the demand.




____________________________________________________________________________

Collector of Märklin fine-quality trains since 1966.




Offline Alsterstreek  
#7 Posted : 04 May 2020 12:23:25(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
I am reviving the post on the occasion of this question:
Originally Posted by: hvc Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GaryTrooper Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: LoeM Go to Quoted Post
The DB br 23 often drove backwards before shuttle trains.

I put some xtra weight in the tender. No problems driving on my k-track layout.


What is the reason the locomotives would run backwards?


Something I too have wondered -here's the BR23 set from a few years back, with the loco deliberately running backwards... is it that push/pull is better not done with the tender in between?


Most of the pictures I could detect show class 23 locomotives in push-pull service actually coupled with the tender to the train, i.e. running backwards when pushing and forward when pulling.

Scroll down to the end - the last two pictures are showing a class 23 coupled with the tender to the push-pull train, in both cases pushing the train, thus with the engine running backwards.
http://www.bundesbahnzeit.de/seite.php?id=211

Same here (The second photo is already appearing in the "Bundesbahnzeit" post listed above):
https://www.dhuenntalbah...ildung/br-23-wendezuege/

Same here (scroll down to header “Duitsland” (= Germany)):
http://www.nicospilt.com/index_duitsland_023.htm

The only example I found of showing a push-pull train coupled to the front of a class 23, which is here seen pulling the train, thus the engine is running backwards (scroll down to image #5):
http://www.bundesbahnzeit.de/seite.php?id=207

It should be noted in this context that vintage photographs of tank locomotives in push-pull service suggest that it was common for tank locomotives to be coupled with the front to the train.

Edited by user 04 May 2020 20:07:48(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Online JohnjeanB  
#8 Posted : 04 May 2020 18:26:34(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi
IMO the BR 23 001 by Märklin is one of the nicest locos they made.
Because I operate shuttle trains on my layout with loco exchange, etc I had to couple the BR23 as DB did it: the front of the loco coupled with "Silberlinge" and control car with reversing lights.
So I added to the tender a red marker light operated in parallel with front headlights
I also had to improve the centering of the loco front coupler (by adding a spring) so that it will lock with cars every time
Here is a short video about it

I like this loco a lot
Cheers
Jean
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#9 Posted : 04 May 2020 23:06:09(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,666
Location: Hybrid Home
Cross-referencing:
Originally Posted by: TrainIride Go to Quoted Post
Just to illustrate...

Br23_reverse.jpg


BR23_reverse_2.png

Best Regards
Joël

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Offline LoeM  
#10 Posted : 08 May 2020 22:40:18(UTC)
LoeM

Netherlands   
Joined: 18/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 69
Location: Zuid-Holland
Originally Posted by: GaryTrooper Go to Quoted Post

What is the reason the locomotives would run backward?


Hi Gary,

The br 23 was made to drive also fast backwards.
From the website of Nico Spilt:
The tender is designed in such a way that the locomotive can reverse quickly. In principle 110 km / h, just as fast as forward, but in practice, because of the lesser view, 85 km / h is allowed. That is fast enough to serve on secondary lines, without having to turn the locomotive. Clear attention has also been paid to keeping the driver's cabin draft-free: see the rubber bellows.

Many lesser big stations didn't have posibilities to turn a steamlocomotive.

Best whishes, Leo
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