Esu mfx locpilot and locsound decoders for M*

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Esu mfx locpilot and locsound decoders for M*

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Davy		#1 Posted : 24 September 2004 18:13:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 1,915 Location: Netherlands		It is a lot of text. Five pages. There will be two decoders A esu mfx lokpilot and a mfx locsound decoder Both esu decoder can are made for 16 functions. But the don't have 16 exits ways. 128 line steps, The engine is driven wth 32 kHz (locsound) and 40 kHZ locpilot. You can use them for faulhabers engines. The locpilot is very small has a exit way for the engine, two for the light and two for other functions. Both decoders are made for Marklin. You can drive analog, with the 6021 and the new central station. They switch automatic to the system you use. Both have a nem plug The locsound decoder has four soundcanals. Are made for two, three and four cylinder steamlocs, diesel engine (two different kinds) and elocs They also say something about mfx. Mfx is based on a DC signal. There will not be a flickering of the loc light. The data pakkets are extremly secure. Mfx is ideal for big lay outs. It speeds is much greater 5,3 ms for 29,4 ms for DCC. The mfx protocol is a multiprotocol and that it uses parcels that are 3 to 7 times faster than DCC. The will made 42 different locsounddecoders for the most important Marklin locs. A very smart move. I say so. I have not see the prices for this kind decoders. www.modellbahnecke.de/iloksound.htm
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Lars Westerlind		#2 Posted : 24 September 2004 22:52:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		At last, some info. I've waited for it since Nürnberg. Let me continue your translation. mfx is used also as a name of the new protocol; the new protocol is sent together with the old one, and confusion arrives of course if mfx includes the packeages sent with the old format in between. Nevertheless; the mobile station and central station send a mix of new protocol and old protocol, depending on the loco. Just like the Intellibox, but the new protocol is not DCC but completely new. And the decision of protocol is set up automatic, during registry. The new protocol actually has no DC-component, Davy, which means that over time, it's neutral. And the light won't flicker if grounded to chassis (if you use pure new protocol of course). It has a fixed length regardless of content. ESU explicitly tells that the protocol contains 16382 adresses, 128 speed steps and up to 16 functions (including light). And as we know, it's a leading idea that these aren't identified by number, but by names and pictures etc. Each mfx decoder has an worldwide unique serial number; when it senses that it's has come to a new environment, it begins to negotiate with the central, to get an adress. Then, it transmits it's attributes and settings; I read it as if the acceleration has been set on one system (software settings), they remain when moved to another layout. My note: a price indication I think you can get from Märklins new mfx decoders; a 60922 IS a Lokpilot I think, and costs about EUR 80. I think that's the price we customers will pay for the cooperation between Märklin and ESU. All mfx-decoders will understand 6021 as well, as we knew already. And as new decoders they are said to have better speed regulation, bettwer sound, lower noise, smother acceleration and all that. Regards, Lars
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perz		#3 Posted : 25 September 2004 00:25:46(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC) Posts: 2,578 Location: Sweden		They also have included maximum speed setting and acceleration/brake delay in AC mode. Something the real Märklin decoders but not LokSound / LokPilot have had before. They mention something about "storing the operation state". Does it mean that they have fixed the annoying "alzheimer" problem that make the old LokPilot decoders almost useless on dirty tracks? I really hope so. Since ESU go out like this, using the Märklin Systems logo and everything, it means they must have a very tight relation with Märklin. I assume Märklin have explicitly approved that ESU offer competing mfx decoders. Why would they do that? And why do they let ESU come out with the technical details about the protocol instead of doing it themselves? Really strange.
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xxup		#4 Posted : 25 September 2004 01:57:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC) Posts: 9,472 Location: Australia		Davy, Lars and Per, Thanks for the translation and information.. I would never have received this level of information using Babel fish.
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Webmaster		#5 Posted : 25 September 2004 02:39:50(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC) Posts: 11,161		One interesting thing is that the "mfx-protocol" is so fast, much faster than DCC. This indicates that the Selectrix technology, or at least its philosophy is implemented in the mfx... Selectrix is the fastest digital protocol on the planet...
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digilox1		#6 Posted : 25 September 2004 04:52:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/05/2003(UTC) Posts: 719 Location: ,		Seems there`s more to that bidirectional communication than just log on to the system. It`s also mentioned in the programming context so, there must be some acknowledgment of data received from the command station that change some basic decoder setups. The new system works with addresses just like any other system. Obviously, the uniqe ID is NOT the address but seems to contain some info what kind of decoder it is, mobile, stationary, or the like. Will stationary decoders offer turnout position feedback? Who will develop these decoders? Still no word about further possibilities of decoder talk. Also interesting, there seems to be only one LokProgrammer for DCC and mfx decoders. So, how many registers or CVs does the mfx decoder have? Can they all be addressed by the central station? By DCC command stations? The mobile station seems to support 79 registers for LokSound/LokPilot decoders. Will the new decoder also communicate to the command station how many registers it is actually supporting, and therefore the command station will only display those registers supported, just the same way it`s handling the display of function icons? Still no word of supporting DCC. Impossible? Marketing? Who will be in charge of assigning those UIDs, Unique Identities? Will other companies be licensed to use these IDs? The licensing issue probably will probably boil down to ID-distribution. Regards, Manfred


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digilox1		#7 Posted : 25 September 2004 09:36:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/05/2003(UTC) Posts: 719 Location: ,		...It`s also almost evident now, that there`s no support for the 27 speed steps of Motorola II. LokSound DCC/Mot.II have internal 256 speed step resolution. How about the mfx? With an "infinite" number of ID slots why do they have to take resort to "addresses", will say why isn`t the ID the address? 16383 addresses limitation for performance reasons. Is this a clue for a later update to handle DCC? How many IDs can it handle? Would it be possible to create fake IDs? I guess so, since they hardly can force users to update the command stations prior to every operating session. So hackers... I`m really confused, sdrageR, derfnaM


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Lars Westerlind		#8 Posted : 25 September 2004 10:38:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		Dear all, I forgot, I the mfx decoders support the brake signal; they must mean the DC brake signal of 72441. It seems straightforward that ESU publishes this, and not Märklin. Such issues are a matter for the decoder manufacturer, and Märklin don't want their customers to care. And I would be surprised if Märklin and ESU didn't have this in their contract; ESU must have demanded to be allowed to sell the decoders they do for Märklin also by themselves. I wonder, are there any differences? Or is it so that a 60922 really is Lokpilot mfx? Still not a word about operational feedback. There are messages going from the loco decoder during registry as I prefer to call it. This includes the settings of the decoder. After that, there is no need for the central to read anything from the decoder. From my world of computers a solution with adresses as handles in the communication, but serial numbers at log on, well, I certainly would have choose that myself, both for track protocol and internally. I hope it will be possible for the Intellibox (or IB II) to use this somehow. But, there is not much in the mfx that the IB can't do already, except one thing (I like): the mapping of functions. I want whistle on the same button for all locos. A wild guess is that if Märklin succeed with mfx-Motorola, they will also have a mfx-DCC for the TRIX products. But we'll never see mfx-DCC-Motorola (just guessing). Regards, Lars
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nico van zon		#9 Posted : 25 September 2004 15:24:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 202 Location: ,		The strange thing is that it is not ESU, but a shop that publishes this on the net. Although the paper brochure is probably from ESU. But on the ESU website (loksound.de) nothing can be found on this matter. What frustrates me most is the text about "The technical details" It warns: "carefull, from here on it is becoming really technical". What a nonsense. It's a lot of mumbo-jumbo but no clear explanation of the real technical details of the protocol. This doesn't clear the mist that still hangs around the subject.


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Lars Westerlind		#10 Posted : 25 September 2004 17:42:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by nico van zon <br />The strange thing is that it is not ESU, but a shop that publishes this on the net. Although the paper brochure is probably from ESU. But on the ESU website (loksound.de) nothing can be found on this matter. What frustrates me most is the text about "The technical details" It warns: "carefull, from here on it is becoming really technical". What a nonsense. It's a lot of mumbo-jumbo but no clear explanation of the real technical details of the protocol. This doesn't clear the mist that still hangs around the subject. Well, I realize that I've got used to it. Both to be regarded as an idiot, and the fact the m Weiss releases info that I'm sure was to early for Märklin (and possibly ESUs) taste. And ESU gave me more trusworty information in this short leaflet than Märklin has done. To me the mist clears; of course it's not clear but clearer. The protocol itself isn't released, remember, the Motorola was not released from Märklin but from Motorola, and Märklins extended "new motorola" has never been officially published. But still, ESU tells some things about this protocol, and that is not bad. The new protocol isn't an extension of the old one, but it may coexist with the old one(s). And what Märklin told us about 16 k adresses, 128 speed steps and 16 functions, in a vague manner, has proved to be attributes of the protocol, as we guessed but weren't sure of. And the new protocol is certainly not DCC, and doesn't resemble it either. A think it increases the chances that mfx may coexist with true DCC, with disturbance. I still don't understand how the registry functions electrically. But I'm sure that depends on my limited electrical experience/knowledge. Regards, Lars
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nico van zon		#11 Posted : 25 September 2004 18:13:00(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 202 Location: ,		Well, to put it more in detail: the ESU text states that a zero-bit and a one-bit are the same timelength and that time seems to be very short. That excludes DCC, because DCC has different lengths for zero and one. Motorola protocol has the same length for zero and one, but both "bits" consist of two pulses. And it is not very fast. So I don't believe that mfx resembles Motorola. That leaves Selectrix. It has the same length for zero's and ones. And it is between 3 and 7 times faster than DCC! The talkback possibility already exists in DCC. Could it be that they made a mix of the Selectrix protocol and the talkback feature of DCC? Is there anyone who already owns the system and knows how to operate an oscilloscope? I would like to see a picture of what the track voltage looks like. Just curious!


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jeehring		#12 Posted : 25 September 2004 18:18:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		hi , look at the number of the big boy : it's the new one ( 4012)! One question please : is it written that svt 137 is also MFX ? It could be a good surprise , because it has not been mentionned on the catalogue ! bye bye


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Hemmerich		#13 Posted : 25 September 2004 19:35:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,734 Location: ,		Dave, Lars, Group, One comment about speed: Please keep in mind that the indicated mfx speed advantage is only applicable in a sole mfx environment. As soon as you (still) have to address a motorola based locomotive, that (lower) speed applies; however, by installing the already published mfx sets (almost) any Märklin lok can be digitized to run using mfx. Re Märklin-ESU relationship: Yes, they have some interesting contract relationship. The reason why this information is not yet found on the ESU pages has (also) to do with their contract, especially related to end customer communication . Our friend Michael Weiss is well known for his "scanning speed"; it's also said that he always has a good bottle of whine near his hot running scanner! Let's hope it is still lasting a long time. (his own statement). And yes, Märklin (i.e. ESU) have already made provisions in the system to later support Selectrix. Maybe this and more details will be communicated as early as next spring in Nürnberg. DCC is NOT in the scope of Märklin Systems. There will also be completely new mfx supporting decoders, signals and other functional devices, including a brake unit. If you have ever heard about the ESU handheld..., guess what else. Enough for this. Best regards, Lutz


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perz		#14 Posted : 25 September 2004 21:12:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC) Posts: 2,578 Location: Sweden		I obviously posted my findings about the protocol in the wrong thread. Because here is speculation about things we already know in that other thread ... The bit rate is 10 kbit/s. It is not Selectric-like. There is no "taktpuls" or whatever it is called. The signal alternates between positive and negative voltage, with no periods of 0V in between. It looks very similar to DCC on the oscilloscope, but the coding is completely different. According to the ESU brochure, the coding is Bi-Phase. There are different flavors of Bi-Phase coding, see e.g. http://ckp.made-it.com/encodingschemes.html. I don't know which flavor of Bi-Phase they use, but anyway the short pulses are 50 us and the long pulses are 100 us, and therefore the bit rate is 10 kbit/s.
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nico van zon		#15 Posted : 25 September 2004 21:39:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 202 Location: ,		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by perz <br />..... There is no "taktpuls" or whatever it is called. This called a Taktpause Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by perz <br /> , but anyway the short pulses are 50 us and the long pulses are 100 us, and therefore the bit rate is 10 kbit/s. If a zerobit and a onebit are of equal length, does this mean then that a "zero" is one 100us pulse and a "one" is two 50us pulses?


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Lars Westerlind		#16 Posted : 25 September 2004 22:38:06(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich <br />Dave, Lars, Group, ... And yes, Märklin (i.e. ESU) have already made provisions in the system to later support Selectrix. Maybe this and more details will be communicated as early as next spring in Nürnberg. DCC is NOT in the scope of Märklin Systems. ... Lutz So, can you then explain the precense of the DCC Icon on the Mobile Station? Some joke Märklin is playing with us? And do you know anything about the brake unit? Are we still talking about DC, or is it a brake unit for mfx only? Regards, Lars
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Davy		#17 Posted : 25 September 2004 22:51:26(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 1,915 Location: Netherlands		No the chances are great that they will make a mobile station for Trix. Trix is a part from Marklin.
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jeehring		#18 Posted : 25 September 2004 22:53:23(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		Let me join xxup , thanks to you for all translations and informations.... About ESU Handheld : you mean the cableless one with radio transmission ? There are similar function symbols on its screen .....


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nico van zon		#19 Posted : 26 September 2004 17:07:28(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 202 Location: ,		After studying the info about the bi-phase coding I came to the conclusion that Märklin Systems most probably uses the bi-phase-M type (bi-phase-mark) as shown here: The bit-timing is determined by the long pulses. If within the bit the polarity of the voltage does not change,then that bit is a "zero" (space). If there is a transition of polarity in the middle of the bit, then it is a "one" (mark). It could be that the coding is bi-phase-S (space) In that case ones and zeros swap places. There is a third type, namely bi-phase-L (level) but it is very unlikely that this type is used, because it is polarity sensitive, or to put it in other words: in the L-type you cannot swap the red and the brown wire. And I cannot imagine that Märklin would make the same mistake again!


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Hemmerich		#20 Posted : 26 September 2004 19:50:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,734 Location: ,		The -explicitly shaded out- DCC Icon on the display doesn't mean that DCC will be included in the Märklin Digital part of Systems capabilities/offering. Lutz PS: More on this at some later time.


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nico van zon		#21 Posted : 26 September 2004 21:06:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 202 Location: ,		Why later? Why not now? You seem to know more about it.


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Lars Westerlind		#22 Posted : 01 October 2004 10:22:34(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		Now ESUs leafleat is officially released. At www.loksound.de I find one extra info, or confirmation of what was guessed previously: The loksound decoders (with >4 functions) have as an option an extra adress, which serves for reaching f5-f8. DCC is certainly not usable. ESU explicitly tells that the previous shortcomings, or rather, current drops with lost memory is, well, remains in memory only. Oh, Im not good at joking; the decoders remember much better also speed settings, including at bad conducting turnouts, and when run by 6020 at signals. And my brake signal question: I'm convinced now that they support the DC-brake signal. Summary: the mfx decoders of this year seems to be very compatible with the old. No problem to run on 602x stations or Delta, the decoders have a few advantages over the 6090x range. Even f5-f8 are reachable, 14 speed steps and smoth transition between is more than enought for me. More than 80 adresses are not a problem either. And I have no problem with manually programming my decoders. So it seems, I've no use if the Mobile station. One last question of course, that I'm sure will be answered by others than Märklin and ESU: will the mfx decoders have problem with DCC/Motorola multiprotocol environment. Regards, Lars Westerlind
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dudok12		#23 Posted : 01 October 2004 10:47:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/08/2004(UTC) Posts: 152 Location: Eindhoven,		According to the M* website the Mega starter set with 2 MFX locs (BR50 & 218) is supposed to be at your local dealer this month. It looks as if this will be the first MFX offering. If I can find one, I intend to buy the BR50 from a ripped-up starter set. Keep you posted... Regards, Bernhard
		IB since 2000. Latest loc aquisition: 37554 BR 55 a long time ago...


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Davy		#24 Posted : 01 October 2004 13:16:01(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 1,915 Location: Netherlands		First indication of prices. From the shop www.modellbahnecke.de/esu_loksoundn.htm 61450 H0 Umbausatz Märklin 37770 SVT 137 N04 12/04 149,99 € KB I count 15 symbools. From www.modellbahnen-licht.d...0&c=&s=851444483 ESU es61450 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX UMBAUSATZ SVT137 135,00 ESU es61600 #NEU LokPilot MFX/Motorola 32,50 ESU es62401 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 2 Zyl. 115,00 ESU es62402 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 3 Zyl. 115,00 ESU es62403 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 2/4 Zyl. 115,00 ESU es62404 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 38 115,00 ESU es62405 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 18 115,00 ESU es62406 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 01 115,00 ESU es62407 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 03 115,00 ESU es62408 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 23 115,00 ESU es62410 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 50 115,00 ESU es62411 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok Big Boy 115,00 ESU es62412 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok Mountain 115,00 ESU es62413 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 80 1 115,00 ESU es62420 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 55 1 115,00 ESU es62422 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 78 1 115,00 ESU es62425 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 41 1 115,00 ESU es62431 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Diesellok V60 115,00 ESU es62432 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Diesellok V100 115,00 ESU es62433 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Diesellok 218 115,00 ESU es62436 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Diesellok F7 115,00 ESU es62438 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Diesellok Nohab 115,00 ESU es62439 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Triebwagen VT11.5 115,00 ESU es62441 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Triebwagen 628 115,00 ESU es62442 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Diesellok 232 115,00 ESU es62444 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Diesellok PA-1 115,00 ESU es62446 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Diesellok V200 115,00 ESU es62450 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Triebwagen SVT137 115,00 ESU es62451 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Triebwagen VT610 115,00 ESU es62452 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Triebwagen VT650 115,00 ESU es62454 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Triebwagen VT98 115,00 ESU es62461 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Ellok E40 115,00 ESU es62463 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Ellok E103 115,00 ESU es62464 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Ellok E94 115,00 ESU es62465 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Ellok E120 115,00 ESU es62466 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Ellok E150 115,00 ESU es62467 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Triebwagen ICE 115,00 ESU es62468 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Ellok 460 115,00 ESU es62469 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Ellok 143 115,00 ESU es62470 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Ellok E44 115,00 ESU es62472 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Ellok Re4/4II 115,00 ESU es62473 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Ellok Taurus 115,00 ESU es62474 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Ellok Ae6/6 115,00 Not to bad the prices.
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Lars Westerlind		#25 Posted : 01 October 2004 14:30:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Davy <br />First indication of prices. From the shop www.modellbahnecke.de/esu_loksoundn.htm 61450 H0 Umbausatz Märklin 37770 SVT 137 N04 12/04 149,99 € KB I count 15 symbools. From www.modellbahnen-licht.d...0&c=&s=851444483 ESU es61450 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX UMBAUSATZ SVT137 135,00 ESU es61600 #NEU LokPilot MFX/Motorola 32,50 ESU es62401 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 2 Zyl. 115,00 ESU es62402 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 3 Zyl. ... Not to bad the prices. Wow, Real god prices, I'm surprised. Some joke though; ESU 61600 for 32,50 and Märklin prices for 60922 around EUR 80... I'm sure we'll see some price changes here. /Lars
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Davy		#26 Posted : 08 October 2004 19:27:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 1,915 Location: Netherlands		De esu lokpilot is a lot more expensive. http://www.modellbahnen-...0&c=&s=851444483 ESU es61450 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX UMBAUSATZ SVT137 1 135,00 ESU es61600 #NEU LokPilot MFX/Motorola 1 59,90 ESU es62401 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 2 Zyl. 1 145,00 ESU es62402 #NEU LOKSOUND MFX Dampflok 3 Zyl. 1 145,00 [xx(][xx(]
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Bart		#27 Posted : 09 October 2004 01:19:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 13/05/2002(UTC) Posts: 670		Hi all, Very recently, all German mail order shops seem to have increased their Esu mfx prices by at least Eur 25 [V]. Has Mother M been complaining?
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Davy		#28 Posted : 14 October 2004 00:00:28(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 1,915 Location: Netherlands		No I don't think so. I have spoken with a importeur from Esu. He says that Esu has made the new procotocol and that it could be bought by everybody after that. Marklin has bought it ultimate.
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