 Joined: 10/02/2023(UTC) Posts: 7 Location: Tokyo, Tokyo
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Hello everyone, Is it possible to make light on of digital loco with 6080 decoder in analog mode?  I recently get digital loco 3634 try to run on M track with analog system. It runs normal but light doesn't work. Please assume I come from 35 years ago the time my Märklin life once stopped. I recently back to Märklin.
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 Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC) Posts: 3,555 Location: Paris, France
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Hi (a first name would be great here)
A warm welcome to our great forum.
Here a Märklin digital fan from Ile de France
Regarding the 6080 decoders I think they have 2 noticeable features;
- the lights don't work in analogue mode
- they forget their direction after a no-power time (initially more than 60 sec but much less when aging. At the time they had a "preferential" direction which was forwards
Kind regards
Jean |
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 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
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 Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,589 Location: Spain
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If the loco is 35 years old, it is probably using an incandessant light bulp (not LED)¿? -In that case it should be trivial to isolate the bulp from the decoder, and just give it power directly. I think there are several ways. F.x. this;  |
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2 users liked this useful post by hxmiesa
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Joined: 10/02/2023(UTC) Posts: 7 Location: Tokyo, Tokyo
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Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB  Hi (a first name would be great here)
A warm welcome to our great forum.
Here a Märklin digital fan from Ile de France
Regarding the 6080 decoders I think they have 2 noticeable features;
- the lights don't work in analogue mode
- they forget their direction after a no-power time (initially more than 60 sec but much less when aging. At the time they had a "preferential" direction which was forwards
Kind regards
Jean Dear Jean, Thank you for your quick tips. Since I restarted Märklin, I have depended on this Forum to catch up. Oh, so my loco runs always dark mode as long as I am using analog system. For 6080 decoder loco what type of transformer do I need? Should I look for mid old transformer?
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Joined: 10/02/2023(UTC) Posts: 7 Location: Tokyo, Tokyo
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Originally Posted by: hxmiesa If the loco is 35 years old, it is probably using an incandessant light bulp (not LED)¿?
-In that case it should be trivial to isolate the bulp from the decoder, and just give it power directly.
I think there are several ways. F.x. this;
Thank you for nice advice. Yes it has light bulb 60190. I was thinking the wild way like you suggest connecting directly from motors. But I am afraid of damage to decoder and bulbs. Are two diodes necessary to avoid the damage? Edited by user 26 August 2023 12:54:50(UTC)
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Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,589 Location: Spain
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Originally Posted by: 3104V200 Thank you for nice advice. Yes it has light bulb 60190. I was thinking the wild way like you suggest connecting directly from motors.
But I am afraid of damage to decoder and bulbs. Are two diodes necessary to avoid the damage? I don´t know why the diodes are there. I run analogue and would do it without them. Also, I don´t know what you see as wild, or why you would take the power from the motor; The diagram clearly shows that the bulbs are powered directly from slider and wheels, bypassing the decoder completely...  |
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1 user liked this useful post by hxmiesa
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 Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,261 Location: Hobart, Australia
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Originally Posted by: 3104V200 Hello everyone, Is it possible to make light on of digital loco with 6080 decoder in analog mode? I recently get digital loco 3634 try to run on M track with analog system. It runs normal but light doesn't work. Please assume I come from 35 years ago the time my Märklin life once stopped. I recently back to Märklin. Hi V, In answer to your original post (# 1), yes, it is possible to light the globes in a loco with installed digital 6080 decoder when running in analogue mode. These decoders were one of the earliest digital decoders offered by Märklin and I fitted many in my digital conversions in the 1980s (and in turn replaced them with more advanced decoders subsequently). Back then one powered the light globes from the two auxiliary functions of the decoder (the yellow and grey wires) but because of the nature of the digital signal super-imposed on the track "power", this caused a "flickering" of the lights. The sole purpose of a diode is to eliminate this flicker (see lower diagram below from page 97). So even if you are running a 6080 decoder loco on "modern" digital "power" it is prudent to leave the diodes in place. Back then, if you wanted to run additional functions (such as telex) then you powered the light globes direct from the track (i.e. pick-up slider and rail, as in analogue) and used diodes to eliminate the flicker as shown in the upper diagram below, but in that situation you lost directional control of the lights. If, however if you are running the 6080 loco only on analogue (no digital signal) there is technically no need for the diodes. Also the 6080 automatically senses analogue track current and runs as if in analogue control. Further, setting all of the eight dip switches of the 6080 to "off" sets it to run in analogue. However I am not sure if you have illuminated lights or directional control of the lights under analogue control (I no longer have any locos with 6080) and if you cannot, you may need to wire the globes directly to the track (as in the upper diagram), but without the diodes, however you would have no directional control of the lights. See below from old Märklin digital handbook :    Have fun with your trains  PJ
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3 users liked this useful post by PJMärklin
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Joined: 10/02/2023(UTC) Posts: 7 Location: Tokyo, Tokyo
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Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Originally Posted by: 3104V200 Hello everyone, Is it possible to make light on of digital loco with 6080 decoder in analog mode? I recently get digital loco 3634 try to run on M track with analog system. It runs normal but light doesn't work. Please assume I come from 35 years ago the time my Märklin life once stopped. I recently back to Märklin. Hi V, In answer to your original post (# 1), yes, it is possible to light the globes in a loco with installed digital 6080 decoder when running in analogue mode. These decoders were one of the earliest digital decoders offered by Märklin and I fitted many in my digital conversions in the 1980s (and in turn replaced them with more advanced decoders subsequently). Back then one powered the light globes from the two auxiliary functions of the decoder (the yellow and grey wires) but because of the nature of the digital signal super-imposed on the track "power", this caused a "flickering" of the lights. The sole purpose of a diode is to eliminate this flicker (see lower diagram below from page 97). So even if you are running a 6080 decoder loco on "modern" digital "power" it is prudent to leave the diodes in place. Back then, if you wanted to run additional functions (such as telex) then you powered the light globes direct from the track (i.e. pick-up slider and rail, as in analogue) and used diodes to eliminate the flicker as shown in the upper diagram below, but in that situation you lost directional control of the lights. If, however if you are running the 6080 loco only on analogue (no digital signal) there is technically no need for the diodes. Also the 6080 automatically senses analogue track current and runs as if in analogue control. Further, setting all of the eight dip switches of the 6080 to "off" sets it to run in analogue. However I am not sure if you have illuminated lights or directional control of the lights under analogue control (I no longer have any locos with 6080) and if you cannot, you may need to wire the globes directly to the track (as in the upper diagram), but without the diodes, however you would have no directional control of the lights. See below from old Märklin digital handbook : Have fun with your trains PJ Hello PJ, Thank you for meticulous explanation and advices. These are the information I'm looking for. I purchased several old new? digital loco just curious without knowledge. For a while I concentrate analogue mode for my old 80 locos however I keep new loco's decoder intact for the time start digital mode. It will be long long way..... V
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1 user liked this useful post by 3104V200
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Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC) Posts: 3,555 Location: Paris, France
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Originally Posted by: 3104V200 For 6080 decoder loco what type of transformer do I need?
Should I look for mid old transformer? Hi To avoid any future problem, I would recommend Märklin 32VA transformer 66471 if your mains are 230 VAC. What is important is the (over)voltage when changing the loco direction. Some older transfors (blue case) have the reputation to deliver higher than 24VAC voltage. This may lead, above 26 VAC to the destruction of recent decoders. The older C80 are safe (never burnt one) but it is always a pity to destroy an expensive decoder because of this. Cheers Jean |
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1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
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Joined: 10/02/2023(UTC) Posts: 7 Location: Tokyo, Tokyo
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Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Originally Posted by: 3104V200 For 6080 decoder loco what type of transformer do I need?
Should I look for mid old transformer? Hi To avoid any future problem, I would recommend Märklin 32VA transformer 66471 if your mains are 230 VAC. What is important is the (over)voltage when changing the loco direction. Some older transfors (blue case) have the reputation to deliver higher than 24VAC voltage. This may lead, above 26 VAC to the destruction of recent decoders. The older C80 are safe (never burnt one) but it is always a pity to destroy an expensive decoder because of this. Cheers Jean Thanks lot. My transformer is 66470. Is this same as 66471? I check the voltage level with multimeter. It seems normal and highest voltage is 22.8V. V
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Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,589 Location: Spain
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Originally Posted by: 3104V200 Thanks lot.
My transformer is 66470. Is this same as 66471?
I check the voltage level with multimeter.
It seems normal and highest voltage is 22.8V.
V Hm... 16V * SQR(2) = 22,627V Maybe you need to try with another multimeter...? (Is your meter is measuring the peak of the AC-wave, instead of the nominal useful voltage?) The only difference between 66470 and 66471 is the on/off contact on the cable, as per latest EU laws. The 66470 is perfect for your use! |
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1 user liked this useful post by hxmiesa
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 Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,464 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: PJMärklin
The sole purpose of a diode is to eliminate this flicker (see lower diagram below from page 97). So even if you are running a 6080 decoder loco on "modern" digital "power" it is prudent to leave the diodes in place.
I don't see how the diodes would eliminate the flicker, as the flicker is caused by the assymetric waveform of the Marklin protocol. also note that one of the diodes is a zener diode, used to drop the voltage. I suspect this is to allow the use of 16V bulbs on the digital signal which is a higher voltage. The other diode is required to stop the zener diode or bulb being damaged on the reverse part of the waveform when the zener would be operating in non-zener mode. Originally Posted by: PJMärklin
...
If, however if you are running the 6080 loco only on analogue (no digital signal) there is technically no need for the diodes. Also the 6080 automatically senses analogue track current and runs as if in analogue control. Further, setting all of the eight dip switches of the 6080 to "off" sets it to run in analogue.
Some versions of the decoder require you to have to have all switches in the OFF position to run in analogue mode as Marklin got into a tiff with the patent holder of the technique to switch between analogue and digital modes, and so some decoders do not have the mode detection capability. This is why later DELTA decoders have a 4 pole DIP switch instead of solder jumpers for setting the address, because they require setting the switches off for analogue mode. I have also seen the situation with an original DELTA decoder with solder jumpers where the jumper was a dry joint, so it thought there was no jumpers set and would only operate in analogue mode. a resoldering of the jumper restored digital mode.
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3 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
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Joined: 10/02/2023(UTC) Posts: 7 Location: Tokyo, Tokyo
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Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Originally Posted by: 3104V200 Thanks lot.
My transformer is 66470. Is this same as 66471?
I check the voltage level with multimeter.
It seems normal and highest voltage is 22.8V.
V Hm... 16V * SQR(2) = 22,627V Maybe you need to try with another multimeter...? (Is your meter is measuring the peak of the AC-wave, instead of the nominal useful voltage?) The only difference between 66470 and 66471 is the on/off contact on the cable, as per latest EU laws. The 66470 is perfect for your use! Yes the highest means the moment at reverse pulse not maximum dial position. So I assume 66470 is still OK.
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Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,589 Location: Spain
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Originally Posted by: 3104V200 Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Originally Posted by: 3104V200 Thanks lot.
My transformer is 66470. Is this same as 66471?
I check the voltage level with multimeter.
It seems normal and highest voltage is 22.8V.
V Hm... 16V * SQR(2) = 22,627V Maybe you need to try with another multimeter...? (Is your meter is measuring the peak of the AC-wave, instead of the nominal useful voltage?) The only difference between 66470 and 66471 is the on/off contact on the cable, as per latest EU laws. The 66470 is perfect for your use! Yes the highest means the moment at reverse pulse not maximum dial position. So I assume 66470 is still OK. Yes, then both your trafo and meter are perfect! Maybe your mains is a little low. Here in Spain I have huge fluctuations depending on the day and hour... |
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1 user liked this useful post by hxmiesa
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Joined: 10/02/2023(UTC) Posts: 7 Location: Tokyo, Tokyo
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If, however if you are running the 6080 loco only on analogue (no digital signal) there is technically no need for the diodes. Also the 6080 automatically senses analogue track current and runs as if in analogue control. Further, setting all of the eight dip switches of the 6080 to "off" sets it to run in analogue.
Some versions of the decoder require you to have to have all switches in the OFF position to run in analogue mode as Marklin got into a tiff with the patent holder of the technique to switch between analogue and digital modes, and so some decoders do not have the mode detection capability. This is why later DELTA decoders have a 4 pole DIP switch instead of solder jumpers for setting the address, because they require setting the switches off for analogue mode. I have also seen the situation with an original DELTA decoder with solder jumpers where the jumper was a dry joint, so it thought there was no jumpers set and would only operate in analogue mode. a resoldering of the jumper restored digital mode.
I don't have any DELTA loco yet. But near future I will encounter the problems you mentioned.
Thank you.
V
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Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,261 Location: Hobart, Australia
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Hi Alan, Thanks for your interesting comments on my post #2 in this thread. If I may clarify - Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan
I don't see how the diodes would eliminate the flicker, as the flicker is caused by the assymetric waveform of the Marklin protocol. also note that one of the diodes is a zener diode, used to drop the voltage. I suspect this is to allow the use of 16V bulbs on the digital signal which is a higher voltage. The other diode is required to stop the zener diode or bulb being damaged on the reverse part of the waveform when the zener would be operating in non-zener mode.
Sorry if I caused confusion by using the two diagrams  . The circuit to stop the light "flicker" is the second one in post#2, i.e. :  On further reading of the old Märklin Digital Manual one notes in regard to light flicker :  I have used the zener diode as in the diagram above in the past and I can assure you it does eliminate the light flicker. And on further reading of the old Märklin Digital Manual, the first diagram in post #2 using multiple diodes, whilst displayed as how to use telex with the 6080, is primarily to maintain current to the decoder when a loco is stopped in a block section:  and  Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Some versions of the decoder require you to have to have all switches in the OFF position to run in analogue mode as Marklin got into a tiff with the patent holder of the technique to switch between analogue and digital modes, and so some decoders do not have the mode detection capability. This is why later DELTA decoders have a 4 pole DIP switch instead of solder jumpers for setting the address, because they require setting the switches off for analogue mode. I have also seen the situation with an original DELTA decoder with solder jumpers where the jumper was a dry joint, so it thought there was no jumpers set and would only operate in analogue mode. a resoldering of the jumper restored digital mode. I guess that's why I noted : "Further, setting all of the eight dip switches of the 6080 to "off" sets it to run in analogue." Regards, Philip
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3 users liked this useful post by PJMärklin
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Joined: 25/08/2012(UTC) Posts: 250 Location: South East
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I have returned to analogue after dabbling in Digital a few years ago. This thread has explained why my one loco that had a 6080 decoder ran without the lights (which are grounded ones). So thank you to the contributors - there's some very interesting reading in this thread.
I was going to wire the lights direct to the slider connection but ended up taking the 6080 out and putting in a proper 208240 reverser. These can be quite hard to find these days but there must be thousands hidden away in attics and cupboards with people who have done numerous conversions in the past.
I wanted to keep the motor as original as I like the 'floatiness' of the AC motors rather than the abrupt stopping that you get with a permanent magnet.
Sorry to all the digital afficionados but, to me, Marklin just isn't Marklin without all the clicks and buzzes! |
Marklin HO using M track. Now reverted to analogue as I find it has more character and is more fun...... and I understand it! |
3 users liked this useful post by Paul59
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