Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline thing fish  
#1 Posted : 05 February 2023 05:40:45(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: istanbul
Hi folks,

I wonder if any of us have tried (or heard of) home made cantenary lines? I've been mingling with the idea for some time. I wonder if it is doable ...

One suitable material comes to my mind is different gauge steel guitar strings - usually plated; so soldering might be an issue.

Thanks in advance for your input.

C.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by thing fish
Offline applor  
#2 Posted : 05 February 2023 05:59:19(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,661
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
What would be the point, to save money? You still need the masts and those are too complex to construct yourself I think. Sommerfeldts wires are already of the appropriate type and worth the cost of not having to solder the contact and bearer wires with the link wires...
There is already enough self construction required with Sommerfeldt for a prototypical design in any case.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by applor
Offline thing fish  
#3 Posted : 05 February 2023 06:03:37(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: istanbul
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
What would be the point, to save money?


Well, money is a small part of it. It's the challenge mostly. I'm aware of Sommerfeld products and they're great, I'm planning on using their masts and accesories. But I'd like to be able to make the lines myself.

C.

Offline thing fish  
#4 Posted : 05 February 2023 06:06:06(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: istanbul
BTW ... I found this on the net: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/113398-home-made-catenary/

Anyone tried something like that?

C.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by thing fish
Offline Toosmall  
#5 Posted : 05 February 2023 07:28:18(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 622
Location: Sydney
Just use nickel wire 1455°C melting point, then silver solder it. I silver soldered the Z gauge rail back together for continuous length. Then fed all the rail back onto the sleepers, that was tedious.

Use hard silver solder 810°C to solder the bottom of vertical pieces and then medium silver solder 775°C for the top joint. Silver soldered joins are really strong, more like a welded join. The solder comes in sheet form and just cut along the edge, almost to the end, with scissors, then zig zag back to the other end so you have the remainder to hold on to, simples!

Heat the join and the solder will flow in. Basically the same as circuit board soldering. After a dozen goes you will get your timing right. Clean off flux residue properly, needle files are handy.

Make up a jig to hold everything in place. A well designed jig/s is the key to soldering easily, might be a few iterations of design. With a proper torch with fine point, not some cheap disposable pack. Spend the money on quality tools to make the job easier.

Vertical piece of wire maybe better to do longer and then cut off. Same goes for the horizontal, wasting some length will probably be easier to fabricate. The weight of an old chisel might do the trick holding down the verticals on the horizontal section.

You will get solder & flux from a silversmiths jewelry supplies, and some needle files will be handy plus good quality end cutters. Flame proof board so you don't burn things (in the old days it was asbestos).

83289.jpg

The hardest part here was getting the two pieces perfectly aligned. My first jig was more complex with adjustment screws to push the rail into position on X and Y directions. I over thought the jig and with thermal expansion the jig backfired.

83289crop.jpg
(a slight gap at the ends simply for the photo, the tighter the join the better for structural integrity).

Depending on how you design your jig, you may need to allow for thermal expansion, so a spring may be required to maintain tension, but I think I am over thinking a jig!

63007.jpg

63008.jpg

Once you get going and practise a few stuff-ups, more to the point get your jigs working properly, silver soldering is quite therapeutic. You will enjoy it.

Last but not least, good soft area lighting and a dark background for good contrast to see the detail of the job easily.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Toosmall
Offline thing fish  
#6 Posted : 05 February 2023 08:12:08(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: istanbul
Hi toosmall,

Thanks for the detailed info and photos. Really helpful ThumpUp

C.
Offline river6109  
#7 Posted : 05 February 2023 12:30:34(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,749
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
What would be the point, to save money? You still need the masts and those are too complex to construct yourself I think. Sommerfeldts wires are already of the appropriate type and worth the cost of not having to solder the contact and bearer wires with the link wires...
There is already enough self construction required with Sommerfeldt for a prototypical design in any case.


I've found out the hard way, done most of the wires myself, unfortunately had the wrong solder paste (vertical wires came undone and its a disaster when the bottom wire comes undone= the pantograph catches the vertical wire and ripps it apart.), over time all the solder points caused contact problems, so I've gone back using ready made wires from Sommerfeldt, could have saved myself time and effort.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline mbarreto  
#8 Posted : 05 February 2023 13:00:13(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,268
You can watch this video (made by one forum member) on how to make your own masts:





Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


thanks 4 users liked this useful post by mbarreto
Offline marklinist5999  
#9 Posted : 05 February 2023 15:36:19(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,195
Location: Michigan, Troy
3-D printers are still costly. You need a good one, and good resins so they don't warp.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by marklinist5999
Offline Toosmall  
#10 Posted : 05 February 2023 16:22:13(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 622
Location: Sydney
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I've found out the hard way, done most of the wires myself, unfortunately had the wrong solder paste (vertical wires came undone and its a disaster when the bottom wire comes undone= the pantograph catches the vertical wire and ripps it apart.), over time all the solder points caused contact problems, so I've gone back using ready made wires from Sommerfeldt, could have saved myself time and effort.

John


Did you silver solder at around 800°C?

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Toosmall
Offline thing fish  
#11 Posted : 05 February 2023 17:30:56(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: istanbul
Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post
Did you silver solder at around 800°C?


What I was wondering about ... would a torch up to 600 deg. celc. suffice?

C.
Offline mbarreto  
#12 Posted : 05 February 2023 18:12:08(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,268
I have extremely limited use of catenary and only used Märklin "new" catenary as I find it simpler to install and use compared
to Sommerfeldt. I slightly prefer the look of the later.
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mbarreto
Offline Toosmall  
#13 Posted : 05 February 2023 21:05:16(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 622
Location: Sydney
Originally Posted by: thing fish Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post
Did you silver solder at around 800°C?


What I was wondering about ... would a torch up to 600 deg. celc. suffice?

C.

No.


I use a heat gun 630°C to solder 175 amp Anderson plugs and welding cable for jumper cables etc. Two 100 watt soldering irons don't produce enough heat for 53mm² wire, but a heat gun does to melt tin/lead solder.

But you need high heat and low volume.

If you have a LPG/propane (1900+°C) gas bottle for a BBQ, cooking or heating you are half way there. Get a nozzle, hand piece and hose from a welding supply. For soldering copper water pipe. The diameter of the nozzle should be about the same diameter as your little finger or fore finger maximum. The diameter of your thumb is way too large for the job.

You don't need oxy-acetylene, that is complete over kill and there are some extra safety issues which have to be taken extremely seriously. I have First Year oxy-acetylene welding certificate.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Toosmall
Offline thing fish  
#14 Posted : 05 February 2023 21:08:51(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: istanbul
Thanks for clearing that ... cheers!
Offline kiwiAlan  
#15 Posted : 06 February 2023 00:39:16(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,125
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post

You don't need oxy-acetylene, that is complete over kill and there are some extra safety issues which have to be taken extremely seriously. I have First Year oxy-acetylene welding certificate.


I have a tiny butane torch that came with soldering tips. With the soldering tips removed i can use the flame to do silver soldering, but you do need the correct flux. Check out what is available through your local hardware store.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline Toosmall  
#16 Posted : 06 February 2023 03:53:09(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 622
Location: Sydney
Something like this and only use a bit, a bamboo skewer to apply a bit will do.

https://www.alphaweld.co...g-flux/category/982-flux

MSDS:

https://d347awuzx0kdse.c...fb53daa7a735404f3ea82cf9


Make sure the metal is clean to start will and no finger prints in the spot to be soldered.

The hottest part of the flame is at the blue tip of the flame. Practice buggering up plenty of pieces first!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Toosmall
Offline river6109  
#17 Posted : 06 February 2023 08:10:52(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,749
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I've found out the hard way, done most of the wires myself, unfortunately had the wrong solder paste (vertical wires came undone and its a disaster when the bottom wire comes undone= the pantograph catches the vertical wire and ripps it apart.), over time all the solder points caused contact problems, so I've gone back using ready made wires from Sommerfeldt, could have saved myself time and effort.

John


Did you silver solder at around 800°C?



no, at 500° C led free solder, should I have done it ? if so it would have taken me even longer, my solder iron only goes up to 500°C

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Toosmall  
#18 Posted : 06 February 2023 08:38:48(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 622
Location: Sydney
So my understanding is that you used tin.

Tin only solder is a bit of a pain, tin/lead is easier to solder with.

Tin only also has hair or whisker issues and the potential for joint failure.

https://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/background/index.htm


Silver soldering is a much stronger join. Silver melts at 961°C and the solder up around 800°C. So for example when soldering up complex jewellery. You do the first joins with hard solder. Then work down so the previous soldering all stays together. If the parts to be soldered are not too close, just use hard solder, the highest temperature, or if you can manage do both joins at the same time.

But a silver soldered join is a different kettle of fish to low temperature soldering 231°C tin join.

It's a long time since I did silver soldering making jewellery but I never had a failed join. It is really more like a welded join.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Toosmall
Offline kiwiAlan  
#19 Posted : 06 February 2023 14:41:32(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,125
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post

Tin only also has hair or whisker issues and the potential for joint failure.

https://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/background/index.htm



Pure tin plating is well known for growing whiskers. However unleaded solder is not pure tin, it will have around 2% silver and some other trace metals in it. Unleaded solder has been shown to make a better solder joint than leaded solder once the alloy mix is correct and the soldering done properly.

I'm quite familiar with this problem as part of my job for the last 20 odd years of my working life was doing soldering inspections on space electronics here in the UK.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline river6109  
#20 Posted : 06 February 2023 14:54:49(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,749
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post

Tin only also has hair or whisker issues and the potential for joint failure.

https://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/background/index.htm



Pure tin plating is well known for growing whiskers. However unleaded solder is not pure tin, it will have around 2% silver and some other trace metals in it. Unleaded solder has been shown to make a better solder joint than leaded solder once the alloy mix is correct and the soldering done properly.

I'm quite familiar with this problem as part of my job for the last 20 odd years of my working life was doing soldering inspections on space electronics here in the UK.



So where have I gone wrong ? subquality solder paste ?

John








so

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Toosmall  
#21 Posted : 06 February 2023 16:40:11(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 622
Location: Sydney
You were BBQing sausages, 'snags' Australian colloquial, instead of using the gas at 1980°C for 800°C silver soldering.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Toosmall
Offline ROBMODEL  
#22 Posted : 06 February 2023 16:53:43(UTC)
ROBMODEL

Netherlands   
Joined: 08/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 45
I found this website which might be interesting for you. Although it is in dutch you can switch to english.
https://swissgroep.wordp...profi-rijdraad-zelfbouw/

Kind regards, Rob
Offline Toosmall  
#23 Posted : 06 February 2023 17:21:23(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 622
Location: Sydney
That link is not silver soldering. You can't silver solder on a timber jig. You will have a fire well before any join.

Practice making some silver jewellery for Wifey. Once you solve all the imperfections, soldering that is, Wifey imperfections yet to be solved, your training will be done for the serious work!

There are plenty of videos on jewellery silver soldering.
Offline river6109  
#24 Posted : 06 February 2023 17:35:28(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,749
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post
You were BBQing sausages, 'snags' Australian colloquial, instead of using the gas at 1980°C for 800°C silver soldering.

If I would have done this my whole layout would have gone up in flamrs

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline Toosmall  
#25 Posted : 06 February 2023 18:04:09(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 622
Location: Sydney
So would have my Z gauge rail. That's why I had to removed the sleepers, silver soldered, then thread all the sleepers back on.
Offline Mr. Ron  
#26 Posted : 19 February 2023 20:41:37(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 311
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
`Here are some drawings for catenary soldering templates. They are made of 1/8" aluminum rod inserted into an aluminum plate. The wires used are 1/32" brass for the messenger and hanger wires and code 40 nickle silver rail for the contact wire. When set up over the track, a rail joiner is used to connect the cat sections together. The messenger ends are connected by a section of 1/32" ID brqss tube about 1/4" long which is soldered to the arm on the pole. Since the poles are brass rod, The power is conducted through the poles to the catenary wires. Power can be picked up anywhere on the circuit. The details have been borrowed from the "Traction Guidebook" by Mike Schafer. It is a Kalmbach publication that was printed in 1973. It is an excellent book on catenary. The details are not as fancv as the Sommerfeldt catenary, but look good and simple to make. [img]http://[/img]
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Mr. Ron
Offline PMPeter  
#27 Posted : 20 February 2023 15:59:49(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,277
Location: Port Moody, BC
No image showing.
Offline Toosmall  
#28 Posted : 20 February 2023 18:01:38(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 622
Location: Sydney
I was (still) waiting for an image.


With all the different metals noted, you are just asking for a multitude of problems. Just stick with nickel, if you can be a bit flexible on extrusion profiles. It's easy to silver solder nickel (700 - 800°C) for a very strong joint.
Offline Mr. Ron  
#29 Posted : 20 February 2023 18:15:54(UTC)
Mr. Ron

United States   
Joined: 05/07/2020(UTC)
Posts: 311
Location: Mississippi, Vancleave
I'm having a problem downloading images; will keep trying.
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.888 seconds.