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Offline aclassifier  
#1 Posted : 27 December 2022 12:25:59(UTC)
aclassifier

Norway   
Joined: 18/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 134
Location: Trondheim
Hi!

I wonder whether this might be "finger trouble" on my behalf or a probable defective loco.

I use Märklin Mobile Station MS2 3.55. All of a sudden my Roco 78293 SBB Ae 3/6 II #10412 would not run.

I have made movie of how it bahaves when I attempt to program it:
fig12_132_roco_78293_will_not_run_576p25.mp4 (18,091kb) downloaded 20 time(s).

This has worked earlier. I had written down that I had used loco protocol “Manual MM2” and picked it up from the data bank as 36330. I then I had saved to a loco card.

This time I also made sure that the loco was alone on the track. MS2 did not report “no response from loco”, so it is being seen in some way.

I have tried all the protocols available, and they all behave like in the movie. There is a certain amount of LED blinking, but then the loco is functionally dead.

Trying to read CV address 1 only times out, no matter which protocol I use.

I opened the loco. There are two plastic stoppers on each side, I made four tiny wooden wedges. But first disconnect that grab irons from the lower position! The stoppers are 41 mm from one end and 31 mm from the other end. All seemed fine. I disconnected the motor, and it ran beautifully from some 5V DC.

I also dissconnected the sound board and pushed it back again. Observe that there are (I think) four unused holes on one side and two on the other side, and one hole about in the middle that acts as a guide, since there is no wire there. No bad contact, since no change of behaviour.
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Offline rhfil  
#2 Posted : 27 December 2022 14:27:15(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 431
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
My Roco operates on DCC. Some times you can get a loco to work with the wrong address and protocol. I would find someone with a CS3 and try to operate the loco with it. The CS3 has features such as a programming track and "find loco" features which might make it possible to find and perhaps change the address of the loco.
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Offline aclassifier  
#3 Posted : 27 December 2022 14:52:43(UTC)
aclassifier

Norway   
Joined: 18/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 134
Location: Trondheim
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
My Roco operates on DCC. Some times you can get a loco to work with the wrong address and protocol. I would find someone with a CS3 and try to operate the loco with it. The CS3 has features such as a programming track and "find loco" features which might make it possible to find and perhaps change the address of the loco.


Thanks for that advice. I actually know one with one, in town!

But still, I did try "Find loco" with the MS2, with no success. No loco! I have tried all means to remove it and then add it again.

One thing I have not tried is to remove all my 13 locos and then add them all back. I have loco cards, so it should be feasible. In case the address to this loco, or something else, is stuck. But then, this loco always has had address 7. I'd rather not..

Are you saying that you think the loco might be ok..?

By the way, when you say "My Roco operates on DCC", what does it mean? There is a flora of loco protocols on the MS2, some are lists of protocol. Which one that's chosen, how would we know? I have several other Rocos and they seem to be rather digestive of protocols. I even have the brother loco Roco 68402 which doesn't have sound, and it runs.

Finally, is it possible to remove the sound decoder? I guess this is the little board that may be unplugged? And that the driving control is in another processor, on the bottom board? Edit: I tried to remove it and the unit was totally unresponsive. Plus, it looks from the figure that for analog running there is one board, and for digital there is another. When sound is added it looks to me like both digital motor control and sound control is done on that single "sound decoder" board. In other words, that "sound decoder board" = "sound and motor decoder". I guess this is common knowledge out there(?) (It looks to me like there is s PIC-controller on that board.)
Offline rhfil  
#4 Posted : 27 December 2022 15:56:57(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 431
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
I am no expert on protocols but as far as I can tell there are three that are operable on Marklin controllers - MM(Marklin Motorola), DCC and mfx. To connect with a decoder you need the proper protocol and the digital address, except for the new mfx decoders. Sometimes if you mess up you end up, I think, controlling a loco with analog. I think that has happened to me when I selected the incorrect protocol. That may have been what happened to you. I am not familiar with setting up a non-Marklin loco on a mobile controller. But I think you need the digital address to do it. It might be possible that you have an address conflict which happens when you have two locos with the same digital address. Before I did anything as drastic as removing all my locos from the controller I would try the CS3 solution or removing all other locos from the track. And then try logging in the Roco with DCC as the protocol.
Offline marklinist5999  
#5 Posted : 27 December 2022 16:28:08(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,174
Location: Michigan, Troy
Roco Zimo decoders are set to DCC address 03 from factory. Have you set your MS2 to DCC and tried it? I don't know if the address can be changed with an MS2, but it can with a CS3. It doesn't make semse that it was fine, then began not running if you didn't accidentally do somethong odd on the controller.
Offline aclassifier  
#6 Posted : 27 December 2022 19:06:10(UTC)
aclassifier

Norway   
Joined: 18/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 134
Location: Trondheim
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
I am no expert on protocols but as far as I can tell there are three that are operable on Marklin controllers - MM(Marklin Motorola), DCC and mfx. To connect with a decoder you need the proper protocol and the digital address, except for the new mfx decoders. Sometimes if you mess up you end up, I think, controlling a loco with analog. I think that has happened to me when I selected the incorrect protocol. That may have been what happened to you. I am not familiar with setting up a non-Marklin loco on a mobile controller. But I think you need the digital address to do it. It might be possible that you have an address conflict which happens when you have two locos with the same digital address. Before I did anything as drastic as removing all my locos from the controller I would try the CS3 solution or removing all other locos from the track. And then try logging in the Roco with DCC as the protocol.


Ending up with using the wrong protocol is easy here, but it is indeed controllable from the MS2, separately or as part of a list of protocols. Plus, the MS2 will, when it tries to find a loco, tell which protocols it's using - all of them. Even in this case it ends up with "no loco".

Yes, you are right, the address is essential. MS2 warns if it has an address in use already.

Offline aclassifier  
#7 Posted : 27 December 2022 19:09:34(UTC)
aclassifier

Norway   
Joined: 18/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 134
Location: Trondheim
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Roco Zimo decoders are set to DCC address 03 from factory. Have you set your MS2 to DCC and tried it? I don't know if the address can be changed with an MS2, but it can with a CS3. It doesn't make semse that it was fine, then began not running if you didn't accidentally do somethong odd on the controller.


Yes, I have tried DCC. It works on the other Roco locos.

I think you are right, that I accidentally did something - trying to set an address with all locos connected! It sure was an accident, I know it would hurt! But anyhow, it shouldn't have been unrecoverable, should it? That's why I only said that it had worked before. But this needs to be said! Thanks! Good point!

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Offline rhfil  
#8 Posted : 27 December 2022 19:48:21(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 431
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
Whenever I have a problem that I can not figure out, which is fairly often, i try to reduce all the impacting factors to as few as possible. In your instance I would connect a couple of tracks completely isolated from my layout and connect power and my controller to it and start experimenting.
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Offline aclassifier  
#9 Posted : 27 December 2022 20:29:50(UTC)
aclassifier

Norway   
Joined: 18/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 134
Location: Trondheim
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
Whenever I have a problem that I can not figure out, which is fairly often, i try to reduce all the impacting factors to as few as possible. In your instance I would connect a couple of tracks completely isolated from my layout and connect power and my controller to it and start experimenting.

Agree! That's what I have done (even if that was not how this started!). I even built a switch into my M-track! Rather little prototypical, but functional! Fun aside, yes, I have always had som kind of segment where the loco is alone. It's required.
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#10 Posted : 27 December 2022 20:32:54(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,160
Location: Paris, France
Hi
I don't have this loco nor an MS2 (rather a CS3) so take my advice with some salt.
The blinking LEDs indicate (at least in the Märklin world) that the loco is in the programming mode
It is difficult for me to see what exactly you are doing. It seems you are in DCC. Aren't you?
In the Märklin world, the key to most problems is to re-initialize the decoder by writing CV8 = 8 but with a Roco loco I am not sure
If this is true (loco in programming mode), one possible reason is either the motor is dead / not connected or the decoder output is dead.
One easy way is to disconnect one of the motor wires and apply a low DC voltage to the motor (5 to 10 VDC) and check if the motor runs
If it does not, change the motor if it does, check the decoder by turning on and off the headlights.

Another precaution: do the tests with only one protocol instead of all 3 (MM2, DCC, MFX) which can play tricks at times.
Cheers
Jean
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Offline aclassifier  
#11 Posted : 27 December 2022 20:42:40(UTC)
aclassifier

Norway   
Joined: 18/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 134
Location: Trondheim
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi
I don't have this loco nor an MS2 (rather a CS3) so take my advice with some salt.
The blinking LEDs indicate (at least in the Märklin world) that the loco is in the programming mode
It is difficult for me to see what exactly you are doing. It seems you are in DCC. Aren't you?
In the Märklin world, the key to most problems is to re-initialize the decoder by writing CV8 = 8 but with a Roco loco I am not sure
If this is true (loco in programming mode), one possible reason is either the motor is dead / not connected or the decoder output is dead.
One easy way is to disconnect one of the motor wires and apply a low DC voltage to the motor (5 to 10 VDC) and check if the motor runs
If it does not, change the motor if it does, check the decoder by turning on and off the headlights.

Another precaution: do the tests with only one protocol instead of all 3 (MM2, DCC, MFX) which can play tricks at times.
Cheers
Jean

Thanks. Yes, DCC plus "all the rest", individually and in the list. For the good and bad! All permutations! Writing to CV does not work, it times out. I disconnected the motor, and as mentioned in an earlier comment: it does work. I have not tested the driver's output or scoped and logged the protocol(s). Lights will not turn off or on, as it simply doesn't obey. It hangs like in the movie.
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Offline Goofy  
#12 Posted : 28 December 2022 09:28:26(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,034
I did search after locomotive 78293 in the Rocos homepage and locomotives does not exist.
Did you tried to reset locomotive and start over again but this time without loco card?
It seems bugs in the decoder that wont respons.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline aclassifier  
#13 Posted : 28 December 2022 10:08:07(UTC)
aclassifier

Norway   
Joined: 18/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 134
Location: Trondheim
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
I did search after locomotive 78293 in the Rocos homepage and locomotives does not exist.
Did you tried to reset locomotive and start over again but this time without loco card?
It seems bugs in the decoder that wont respons.


It looks like Roco's search engine doesn't search their full data base. They certainly are there:


Yes, I have tried without the loco card, to bring it up from oblivion. Absolutely nothing helps. I agree that the most plausible explanation might be some problem in the decoder. From my experience, if there is a bootloader there, that allows the firmware to become updated, bootloading may have been entered and not been completed, and left the code or data in some kind of mess.

Maybe I should try to purchase a new decoder board, since the two years' guarantee has passed. (Aside: If I had bought it in Norway the guarantee would have been five years!) But it was hard to find, because Roco had it available and not as a yo-yo at the time.

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Offline Goofy  
#14 Posted : 28 December 2022 10:14:02(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,034
I believe it´s Zimo sound decoder MX...
Not sure if it´s 16 pole schnittstelle or 18.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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