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Offline taliesin  
#1 Posted : 30 January 2016 14:20:10(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Hi there, I was recently inspired by this video showing how to upgrade a Hag 460 to the latest style of lights, and ESU M4 decoder,

I went ahead and bought the necessary parts via a Dealer in Switzerland. Now the video shows what I suspect to be an older factory fitted digital 3 rail loco being upgraded to the latest lights and decoder, my loco started life as an AC analog loco which has been converted to digital with a Marklin 6080 chip and looking at the pictures shows my motor unit to look somewhat different to the one in the video.
IMG_0746.JPGIMG_0745.JPGIMG_0744.JPG

Do I need to buy other parts or do I attach the clue and green wires to the new wiring loom? if so which way round, hopefully one of you digital guru's has done a similar conversion, cheers Rob
Offline biedmatt  
#2 Posted : 30 January 2016 15:28:03(UTC)
biedmatt

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Hi Rob, The motor is an AC motor with a field coil. These motors use three connections, motor brush (the black wire on your loko) and two field coil connections (green and blue). The motor would change direction based on which field coil connection (green or blue) was live at any given moment. You would need to convert the motor to a DC motor with a permanent magnet. With a DC motor, there are just two connections (positive and negative, ESU grey and orange) which reverse polarity to reverse direction of travel. The old 6080 was meant for digital conversion of old AC motors, but now pretty much every decoder, including ESUs, require a DC motor.

Edit: If you can't find a permanent magnet, this SB-Modellbau kit looks like the right one. It will require some hand tools to fit, but no machine tools. It will also run much smoother than a coffee grinder DC motor would. http://www.sb-modellbau....ducts_id=1561&cPath=

Good looking factory motor btw with a bearing on the brush cover.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by biedmatt
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 30 January 2016 15:43:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,707
Location: DE-NW
Hi, Rob,

The part you need is HAG 161216-90 Permanentmagnet. Then you'll have a DC motor that will work with current ESU decoders.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline taliesin  
#4 Posted : 30 January 2016 15:48:49(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Thanks Matt and Tom, I will get onto my Dealer for the parts, thanks Rob
Offline taliesin  
#5 Posted : 30 January 2016 20:29:03(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Well the chassis is stripped down and I have ended up with this,
IMG_0748.JPG
I am hoping that I just have to strip it down, add the new permanent magnet then put it all back together but does anything else need to be done? cheers Rob
Offline jvuye  
#6 Posted : 30 January 2016 20:43:34(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: taliesin Go to Quoted Post
Well the chassis is stripped down and I have ended up with this,

I am hoping that I just have to strip it down, add the new permanent magnet then put it all back together but does anything else need to be done? cheers Rob


Ok, so far , so good.
You'll need to remove that capacitor between the brushes: it is troublesome and will ruin your decoder because it will act as a short circuit with the PWM higher frequencies used in modern decoder.
Also be extremely careful with teh following:
1° when you remove the side /brush plate , make sure you don't loose the very small and thin washer on the motor axles
2° do not oil the ball bearings, they are sealed and will last more than a lifetime. But do lubricate the gears , since you'll have direct access to them.
3° with most HAG permanent magnets, the magnetic material is fairly britle. It's easy to get a few bits inside the motor, and they will rub against the motor's frame, worse even block the rotor or create shorts on teh commutator.
4° before connecting and programming the decoder, test the converted motor with a plain DC source. It should run smooth as silk , little mechanical or electrical noise. And perfectly round even at very low RPM.

After these tests, wire the decoder and start programming with the "auto -tune" feature of teh ESU decoders, then eventually slowly fine tune , following the excellent instructions in the ESU manual.

Good luck, and tell us about the results.

Cheers

Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Online Unholz  
#7 Posted : 30 January 2016 20:44:21(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,349
Location: Switzerland
Rob, it shouldn't be too difficult. You can use these pictures as a guideline, because this series shows the conversion with a motor even older than yours:
http://www.stayathome.ch/HAG_Re44se.htm

You might even be able to online-translate the German text. Wink
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Unholz
Offline taliesin  
#8 Posted : 30 January 2016 21:15:45(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: taliesin Go to Quoted Post
Well the chassis is stripped down and I have ended up with this,

I am hoping that I just have to strip it down, add the new permanent magnet then put it all back together but does anything else need to be done? cheers Rob


Ok, so far , so good.
You'll need to remove that capacitor between the brushes: it is troublesome and will ruin your decoder because it will act as a short circuit with the PWM higher frequencies used in modern decoder.
Also be extremely careful with teh following:
1° when you remove the side /brush plate , make sure you don't loose the very small and thin washer on the motor axles
2° do not oil the ball bearings, they are sealed and will last more than a lifetime. But do lubricate the gears , since you'll have direct access to them.
3° with most HAG permanent magnets, the magnetic material is fairly britle. It's easy to get a few bits inside the motor, and they will rub against the motor's frame, worse even block the rotor or create shorts on teh commutator.
4° before connecting and programming the decoder, test the converted motor with a plain DC source. It should run smooth as silk , little mechanical or electrical noise. And perfectly round even at very low RPM.

After these tests, wire the decoder and start programming with the "auto -tune" feature of teh ESU decoders, then eventually slowly fine tune , following the excellent instructions in the ESU manual.

Good luck, and tell us about the results.

Cheers


Nice one, the decoder should have come pre-programmed from Hag, an ESU M4 making it MFX compatible, we shall see, Rob

Offline taliesin  
#9 Posted : 30 January 2016 21:17:52(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Rob, it shouldn't be too difficult. You can use these pictures as a guideline, because this series shows the conversion with a motor even older than yours:
http://www.stayathome.ch/HAG_Re44se.htm

You might even be able to online-translate the German text. Wink

Thanks, that looks most useful even with German text, regards Rob
Offline chrisisrang  
#10 Posted : 02 February 2016 01:55:03(UTC)
chrisisrang


Joined: 24/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 173
Location: Hong Kong
I would recommend a conversion at the factory because the Re460 loco body requires some level of milling while the chassis needs drilling. All factory conversions come with 12 months warranty. You should speak to one of the Hag dealers who maybe able to offer you a discount as well.

Hag charges CHF46 for doing the conversions. I have had excellent experience sending getting them upgraded at the factory. An another thing to remember is that ESU website does not have the light schema in the project file on their website.

Cheers
Offline taliesin  
#11 Posted : 02 February 2016 16:17:16(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
The ESU decoder has come preloaded from Hag and was ordered with this conversion in mind so it should have the necessary light scheme on it. I am wondering what milling and drilling needs to be done, I have fitted all the parts to the chassis apart from the motor bogie because I am waiting on the magnet, also the cabs have been modified and the circuit board has been fitted, what milling and drilling needs to be done? Rob
Offline mike c  
#12 Posted : 03 February 2016 05:44:33(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,516
Location: Montreal, QC
The new LED lighting kits might require some drilling and milling in order to retrofit the kit and the new roof mounted circuit board into place. The original lights were mounted on the chassis and wired to the decoder.

If you are installing a decoder without the new LED lighting kit, it is easier, because the lights will continue to use the existing wiring. You will have the standard lighting change, but not all the functions that the new LEDs and boards might offer.
Around 2000, I paid 200 CHF to have a Re 460 converted at the factory. They installed a Hag501 decoder (Digitraxx or similar) and did all the wiring. That was roughly a year before the first ESU models with pin sockets came out.

Regards

Mike C
Offline taliesin  
#13 Posted : 03 February 2016 19:25:08(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Thanks Mike, I have found out that the ends need drilling out for the red lights to be seen, my friendly Dealer in Switzerland also tells me that some modification is needed to the chassis as well. Both my chassis and body are going on a hopefully short holiday to Switzerland tomorrow, I am sending them to Christian to sort things out, I suspect he can deal with Hag a lot more easily speaking German, I have not found them particularly helpful on the few occasions that I have contacted them.
I hope the engine bits come the other way soon so that I can modify the power bogie in the meantime, best regards, Rob
Offline Rajnish  
#14 Posted : 04 February 2016 03:20:23(UTC)
Rajnish


Joined: 31/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 75
Location: Singapore, Singapore
Originally Posted by: chrisisrang Go to Quoted Post
I would recommend a conversion at the factory because the Re460 loco body requires some level of milling while the chassis needs drilling. All factory conversions come with 12 months warranty. You should speak to one of the Hag dealers who maybe able to offer you a discount as well.

Hag charges CHF46 for doing the conversions. I have had excellent experience sending getting them upgraded at the factory. An another thing to remember is that ESU website does not have the light schema in the project file on their website.

Cheers


Hi! Chris,

The information provided by you was absolutely correct that the body and chassis require milling and drilling before the new lights can be appropriately installed in the loco. It is exactly for this reason HAG charges CHF46 for factory install versus charging CHF25 for upgrading the light system in a Re 4/4 / Re 6/6 model. In addition, you get a 12-month warranty with a factory upgrade should a problem arise.

The video from Modellbahn Review which is shared in the beginning of the thread is great if someone wants to understand the step by step process for upgrading the electronics of the loco, sans the milling and drilling part.

Best regards,

Rajnish
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Offline chrisisrang  
#15 Posted : 04 February 2016 03:25:47(UTC)
chrisisrang


Joined: 24/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 173
Location: Hong Kong
Originally Posted by: taliesin Go to Quoted Post
The ESU decoder has come preloaded from Hag and was ordered with this conversion in mind so it should have the necessary light scheme on it. I am wondering what milling and drilling needs to be done, I have fitted all the parts to the chassis apart from the motor bogie because I am waiting on the magnet, also the cabs have been modified and the circuit board has been fitted, what milling and drilling needs to be done? Rob


I hope you got the relevant information from your "friendly" dealer to re-affirm that the body and chassis require some level of drilling and milling and there is no straight fit as shown to you in the video. BTW I hope your dealer added additional sounds to the decoder because the one from the factory is loaded with only a couple of basic sound functions.

All the best and enjoy the loco :)

Cheers,

Chris
Offline taliesin  
#16 Posted : 15 February 2016 17:44:10(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
The new magnet has arrived and I now have this ready and waiting for when the body and chassis come back from Hag,
IMG_0756.JPG
I have given it a small test on 12V DC and it runs really smooth in both directions. This took a total of four days to arrive from Switzerland, my body and chassis took twelve days to go the other way for modifying, having paid for what was described as being their most secure service Royal Mail managed to send it to Tel Aviv in Israel, luckily someone there learnt to read at school (unlike at Heathrow seemingly) and redirected it to Switzerland. I have been told that Hag usually turn the work around in two to four weeks so I have another wait on my hands.
BTW this is not a conversion to sound, it will have upgraded lights and an up to date decoder as per the video when finished, cheers Rob
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Offline chrisisrang  
#17 Posted : 16 February 2016 04:16:19(UTC)
chrisisrang


Joined: 24/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 173
Location: Hong Kong
Hi! Rob,

How much was the net savings for you, upgrading the HAG loco with the new light system (partially) yourself Vs potentially sending it back to the factory for the complete works? I am sure there was always the thrill and excitement factor of DIY. Are you planning to add sound to your Re 460?

Enjoy the loco. I am sure you won't be disappointed.

Cheers,

Chris
Offline taliesin  
#18 Posted : 16 February 2016 14:14:34(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Hi Chris, from what I can tell using a basic translation of the Hag website to have my chassis and body milled and drilled costs chf 26.00, to have them do all the conversion costs chf 100.10, the easy and possibly smart option is to send the whole lot to Hag and get a fully functional engine back with the work guaranteed and I can understand the attraction in this. Had my understanding of German been better I would probably have realised that the body and chassis needed to be sent to the factory I might not have bothered starting but by the time I realised I was already committed.
If I had sent it to Hag to do the whole job then I would have got back a nice neat job with a guarantee in exchange for some money and I would have learnt exactly nothing! Now I back myself to be able to undo some screws and cut and solder some wires but digital itself remains a bit of a mystery to me, I cannot put a price on what I have learnt so far, stripping down various parts and learning how to put things back together again, there are no Hag service agents in the UK so pulling a loco apart is a very useful thing to do and should prove useful in the future should work be needed.
I would have thought that I was capable of changing brushes and armatures etc, now I know that I am.
The costs listed above are for a standard conversion, mine also needed the magnet changing so I guess the labour charge might have been a little higher although it is not a long or difficult job to do. Of course if you were going to convert several engines then the do-it-yourself route looks even more attractive as savings mount. I have not seriously considered changing to sound, yes I do have some sound loco's and they are nice but I am happy with the sound that Hag engines make, unlike some of the Marklin 460's that I have, cheers Rob
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Offline taliesin  
#19 Posted : 05 May 2016 12:34:18(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
My Body and Chassis finally made it back to me yesterday having had the best part of a ten week stay back in Switzerland. As I had already converted the motor and done a lot of the work already all I really needed to do was a bit of reassembly and shorten the new wiring loom to size and solder the tags on as per the video, then fit the body to chassis wiring loom and the pre-programmed decoder as per the last few minutes of the video.
I have given it a test this morning and yes all is well.

It runs nice and smooth in both directions, in fairness it did with the original 6080 chip as well, one difference though is that the modern ESU M4 chip and my MS2 fall in love as soon as they are introduced and the loco is ready for the off.
Having shuffled the loco up and down for a while and satisfied myself that the decoder and its associated wiring had survived my first attempt at changing a decoder I then switched the lights on and found just about every conceivable combination possible, if your a lights junkie then this is the conversion for you, no doubt about it, for me I am just happy it all works ok and I have reached the end of it all.

So is it worth it? hard to quantify really, I now have a loco with the legendary fit and finish of the original Hag company combined with a bang up to date decoder and a first rate lighting system for less money than a new Hag so you could argue I have won financially but more than that I have learnt some of the mysteries of digital etc, If the upgrade was just for the light system for me personally I almost certainly would not bother doing it again.
I have several Hag engines fitted with 6080 chips and as or when they pack up I now have the confidence to be able to upgrade them myself, both in the work involved and what parts to order so overall I am really pleased that I did it, cheers Rob
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Offline chrisisrang  
#20 Posted : 06 May 2016 05:38:46(UTC)
chrisisrang


Joined: 24/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 173
Location: Hong Kong
Hey Rob,

I am glad it worked out all perfectly in the end and your happy with the end result. Do you know/ confirm whether the factory does anything to the loco body and the chassis? I believe they are only milling out part of the cab engineer's part to accommodate the cab LED. I haven't been able to figure out any other modification to the body or the chassis or maybe I don't have a fine eye.

Cheers,

Chris

Offline taliesin  
#21 Posted : 06 May 2016 08:15:05(UTC)
taliesin

United Kingdom   
Joined: 30/03/2014(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: ENGLAND, Cambridge
Hi Chris, I must admit I could not see any alterations to the chassis either although they do ask for you to supply it. I think you are correct about the cab alterations, my understanding is that the hole behind the light cluster is enlarged so that the red LEDs can be seen if selected, cheers Rob
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#22 Posted : 22 November 2022 04:41:02(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,211
Location: CA, USA
Originally Posted by: jvuye Go to Quoted Post


Ok, so far , so good.
You'll need to remove that capacitor between the brushes: it is troublesome and will ruin your decoder because it will act as a short circuit with the PWM higher frequencies used in modern decoder.
Also be extremely careful with teh following:
1° when you remove the side /brush plate , make sure you don't loose the very small and thin washer on the motor axles
2° do not oil the ball bearings, they are sealed and will last more than a lifetime. But do lubricate the gears , since you'll have direct access to them.
3° with most HAG permanent magnets, the magnetic material is fairly britle. It's easy to get a few bits inside the motor, and they will rub against the motor's frame, worse even block the rotor or create shorts on teh commutator.
4° before connecting and programming the decoder, test the converted motor with a plain DC source. It should run smooth as silk , little mechanical or electrical noise. And perfectly round even at very low RPM.

After these tests, wire the decoder and start programming with the "auto -tune" feature of teh ESU decoders, then eventually slowly fine tune , following the excellent instructions in the ESU manual.

Good luck, and tell us about the results.

Cheers




Hi everyone,

Haven't seen Jacques here in a while, but an interesting learning on this capacitor. I just did a conversion (sans capacitor) and it seems to be working fine, however I am having some sort of a feedback issue in Digital, causing erradic behavior. Might any of you be able to help diagnose? Some notes:

What is working:

- Pure DC applied to the motor via test leads works flawlessly
- Seemingly so does the decoder. I programmed it, the headlights work directionally, and all else seems fine
- I previously did another RE 4/4I with the old generation motor. Process identical, except that one works fine and this one doesn't. This new one uses the "new generation" ball bearing motor, and the other used the old style

What isn't working:
- Audible feedback noise
- Some sparking under the powered bogie when running.

Ideas? It seems to be in the chassis grounding somewhere. Perhaps I need to attach the black grounding wire to a different point? Or does the motor need a pair of chokes? Motor block need a second grounding point? I've attached a few images. Including one showing both conversions- the loco on bottom is the one working fine...


IMG_4719.jpgIMG_4721.jpgIMG_4718.jpgIMG_4720.jpg

Edited by user 22 November 2022 18:04:50(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Online Unholz  
#23 Posted : 22 November 2022 09:53:05(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,349
Location: Switzerland
I am a complete digital layman, but have you removed the washer underneath the screw on the brushes side? See the English version in this document:
https://www.hag.swiss/wp...Grundanleitung_Re420.pdf
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#24 Posted : 22 November 2022 18:03:10(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,211
Location: CA, USA
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
I am a complete digital layman, but have you removed the washer underneath the screw on the brushes side? See the English version in this document:
https://www.hag.swiss/wp...Grundanleitung_Re420.pdf


Talk about an important detail- that fixed it! I'd never have noticed- especially since I didn't disassemble the motor...

Thank you SO MUCH Stefan!
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
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Offline French_Fabrice  
#25 Posted : 22 November 2022 18:23:34(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,433
Location: Lyon, France
Hi John,

I should have answered you same thing, but I wasn't sure you experienced same issue as mine.

This washer to remove is far from obvious; see also https://www.marklin-user...fixed--conversion-photos

Anyway, always thanks to Stefan. ThumpUp

Cheers

Edited by user 22 November 2022 22:04:36(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Online Unholz  
#26 Posted : 22 November 2022 19:07:03(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,349
Location: Switzerland
Thanks guys - I can't stop blushing...Wub As our saying goes: Even a blind chicken can find a grain. Nobody here will ever believe that I was able to solve a digital problem, so please don't delete this thread. LOL
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