Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Carim  
#1 Posted : 18 July 2022 15:14:55(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 649
Location: London
Hi,

I have an 8560 double slip that used to work perfectly. However, whilst concentrating on building the extension to my layout, I haven't used the double slip for some time. Now when I hit the control button, only three of the four track arms move. I can use a small screw driver to move the fourth arm, so it is not stuck and I can't see anything physically obstructing its movement. I don't think it is a problem with the solenoid as the other arms move, so I suspect that there is an issue with one of the control levers linking the track arm to the solenoid.

Before I go to the pain of lifting the unit and taking it apart, I wondered whether anybody else had experienced this issue before and whether there was an easy solution to it?

Thanks,
Carim
Offline Zme  
#2 Posted : 18 July 2022 19:51:34(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 760
Location: West Texas
Hello, hope you are well.

It seems you have a problem on your hands. Just getting that switch out to replace it will be a challenge. There is no easy way to do that. These are expensive too.

I long while ago, I purchased some old track and the seller mentioned the double switch did not work. I didn’t care and was not making the purchase for the double switch. After a time I looked at the switch and it seemed some of the points operated while other did not. I might have tried cleaning it but when unsuccessful, took the bottom cover off and started probing around with a spare controller. I must have caused a short after a time, and the thin connector wires inside just fizzed and melted. Lesson learned, the hard way. What a boneheaded. Oh well.

Before messing this up, I had tried to find information about repairing these and found nothing helpful. It is a best kept secret, if someone knows how to perform repairs. I just did a search again and did not find much new. This link is a German forum which mentions something about shorting caused by wheel contacts, but may provide some insight into these switches.

https://www.stummiforum....luss-auf-der-Weiche.html Most browsers with translate this information.

Since there are contacts which may get shorted, perhaps something like this has happened to yours. The question is, can this be confirmed and repaired in-place? I assume you tried basic cleaning etc. Close examination may reveal some obstruction if not solved by this, perhaps a contact has failed and cannot be replaced. The entire switch might need replacing. It is interesting to note, in the forum, it is mentioned these switches are avoided as they are to problematic. Perhaps these have a limited service life. That would be a shame because I have a new old stock unit which I would like add to an expansion on my layout also.

I know I have not added much to a solution. I will keep trying to find something on this and let you know if I find something spot on.

Take good care. An expansion, that must be fun. I need one of those too.

Dwight

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Zme
Offline JohnjeanB  
#3 Posted : 18 July 2022 20:32:45(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Carim
Yes trying to make a repair on the double slip is probably delicate (requires removing the unit, using an illuminated magnifier, tweezers and patience)
Typically what happens is oxydation or soiling prevents the free movement of the point.
This happened to me on one C-Track point.
The difficulty is some assembly use bending or riveting (so it is not really made for repairs).
I suggest before trying to open the double switch, to dispense contact liquid on the points and check they are moving freely.
In some case, when the internal spring is not brocken you may solve the issue.
On the Internet I don't find much in Germany about this (Stummi-Forum)
Sorry
Jean
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline wildstix  
#4 Posted : 19 July 2022 14:29:28(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 146
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Hi Carim,

This is also one of my frequent problem since I restarted Z scale back in 2021.

I have four turnouts and one of them 8560 that are not working properly. I did try to understand the operation and I opened the 8560 and all I can say is, if it is getting that kinda problem, it is more to mechanical than electrical. There are connecting rods, from as thin as half of a tooth pick to as thin as hair (I mistakenly picked a falling hair for the connector 🤣).

Took me 3 days to try getting my 8560 to work again, but I have to accept that once the mechanical isn't functioning, there's no way of repairing them. One factor is because the mechanical operation is also relaying on the flexibility of the connecting rods, once they lose their flexibility, there's no way of getting it back. 😥
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
Märklin Z scale (mini-club) purist but not a modeler!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by wildstix
Offline Carim  
#5 Posted : 19 July 2022 14:46:05(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 649
Location: London
Well this does not sound too good. One quick question, can you get the cover off 8560 without lifting the entire unit off the layout?

Carim
Offline Mman  
#6 Posted : 19 July 2022 14:54:28(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 247
Location: England, Guildford
I found that if the 8560 is even slightly warped then individual switch rails no longer move freely.
ChrisG
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Mman
Offline Carim  
#7 Posted : 19 July 2022 15:30:09(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 649
Location: London
Originally Posted by: Mman Go to Quoted Post
I found that if the 8560 is even slightly warped then individual switch rails no longer move freely.
ChrisG


I don't know how the slips could have warped because they went straight from the box onto the layout and were working perfectly until a little while ago. I suspect that one of the connectors has become detached from the rail or that there is some oxidation as Jean suggested. I might try a tiny squirt of WD40 before trying anything else. I really am not looking forward to having to lift the unit - I think if I have to do that, I might as well wait until I have some more time and can rip up all the bits of trackwork that I am not happy with and rebuild - but that's a big job. Crying

Carim
Offline Mman  
#8 Posted : 19 July 2022 16:08:59(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 247
Location: England, Guildford
In batches of second hand Märklin Z gauge track I have bought there have been lots of warped items. Some have traces of paint or solvents that have damaged them and other pieces have no apparent reason. Perhaps some batches of the plastic used become dimensionally unstable with time or heat? I assume that all points & slips in use are not pinned down or otherwise fixed but left floating as recommended. With such tiny pieces of track even lateral stresses from adjoining track may tend to distort them inhibiting free movement.
ChrisG
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Mman
Offline Mman  
#9 Posted : 19 July 2022 18:57:38(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 247
Location: England, Guildford
CB81A1FF-6816-417E-AFC5-CED6F908CD0C.jpegBAAA7F84-0809-4867-8748-D59C16FBD756.jpeg
Looking at some of my slips I found one where only 3 of the 4 switches move - in the photo the top right one.
To remove the metal cover you need to get at a tab underneath, after removing the screw and releasing the tab in the middle, the cover can be raised and disengaged from the end tab.
When I removed the cover all four switches moved ok, when replaced it was back to 3.
ChrisG
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Mman
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#10 Posted : 19 July 2022 20:25:11(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 550
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Mman Go to Quoted Post
CB81A1FF-6816-417E-AFC5-CED6F908CD0C.jpegBAAA7F84-0809-4867-8748-D59C16FBD756.jpeg
Looking at some of my slips I found one where only 3 of the 4 switches move - in the photo the top right one.
To remove the metal cover you need to get at a tab underneath, after removing the screw and releasing the tab in the middle, the cover can be raised and disengaged from the end tab.
When I removed the cover all four switches moved ok, when replaced it was back to 3.
ChrisG


Looking at the photos, it's hard to see how just one switch can fail to move as two share a tie bar. It does look like there must be a "pip" on the bottom of the switch rail that engages in a hole in the tie bar so I suppose there could be a problem there. I wonder is a sliver of plasticard under the lie bar might be enough to keep it engaged? I've done this with regular points to maintain goo operation. (Though I can't remember what the problem was, now!)

Cheers


Chris

P.S. Now I've looked at the photo again, I see there is another pair of tie bars, so please ignore my comment!
Offline Mman  
#11 Posted : 19 July 2022 20:31:52(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 247
Location: England, Guildford
No, two do not share a tie bar, there are four tie bars - two long and two short. The (outer) long ones move the top two switch rails and the short inner ones move the lower ones. Looking closely at the photo the extreme right drive bar is hard up against the edge of the slot and there is dust around in presumably having come through the slot for the manual lever.
I’ll have a tinker with it and see if things improve.
ChrisG
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Mman
Offline Carim  
#12 Posted : 19 July 2022 21:44:19(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 649
Location: London
The one that has failed for me is the botom blade on the left - seeing how fine the control rod is, it may be something as simple as a bit of dirt fowling the lever.

Carim
Offline dannyboyz  
#13 Posted : 19 July 2022 22:20:29(UTC)
dannyboyz

Ireland   
Joined: 02/06/2022(UTC)
Posts: 19
Location: Leitrim
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post


I might try a tiny squirt of WD40 before trying anything else.

Carim


I am a member of a n gauge forum and one thing that gets mentioned occasionally, is not to use ordinary WD40. Apparently there is an electrical contact cleaner made by the people who make WD40 and that is okay.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dannyboyz
Offline Zme  
#14 Posted : 20 July 2022 01:09:55(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 760
Location: West Texas
Hello.

I use the WD electrical contact cleaner spray. It works well.

I have discovered, Marklin does not sell parts for these. I guess, it is intended the unit be replaced. Give cleaning a shot and maybe it will work. The real work might be removing it from your layout without damaging it.

Best wishes, hope it works out.

Dwight
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Zme
Offline wildstix  
#15 Posted : 20 July 2022 05:03:09(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 146
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
Well this does not sound too good. One quick question, can you get the cover off 8560 without lifting the entire unit off the layout?

Carim


Yes, it's possible. The only downside is you'll have tougher time to put the cover back later on
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
Märklin Z scale (mini-club) purist but not a modeler!
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by wildstix
Offline Carim  
#16 Posted : 20 July 2022 16:50:31(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 649
Location: London
Well giving it a good blast with WD Contact Cleaner doesn't seem to have had any effect. Cursing

Guess I am going to have to be more radical.

Carim
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Carim
Zme
Offline wildstix  
#17 Posted : 21 July 2022 14:34:45(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 146
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
Well giving it a good blast with WD Contact Cleaner doesn't seem to have had any effect. Cursing

Guess I am going to have to be more radical.

Carim


Like I said, it's more about the mechanical than electrical...one thing that I'd really love to know now is how we can preserve the flexibility of the connecting rods (or I might say, wires) so it'll last for a century or two.

Please let us know how your radical ways goes, who knows we can learn something out of it 👍
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
Märklin Z scale (mini-club) purist but not a modeler!
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by wildstix
Offline Carim  
#18 Posted : 21 July 2022 16:10:03(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 649
Location: London
I managed to get the cover off the double slip in situ.

When I manipulated the mechanism manually, all four blades moved perfectly. However, now the solenoid would only operate in one direction. So I thought about either trying to get a spare Märklin solenoid and replace the existing one or completely remove the mechanism and go for an under-table drive - but both approaches have problems. But then the original problem reappeared even when manipulating the slip manually. Cursing

So I am coming to the conclusion that just swapping out the failed units (two other points have failed) for new ones is going to be my path of least pain. Crying

Carim
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Carim
Offline Mman  
#19 Posted : 21 July 2022 19:03:06(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 247
Location: England, Guildford
I think that you are right Carim. These mechanisms are so delicate that I wonder how they mass produce them and get them to work in the first place.
I tell myself that it is prototypical to renew sets of points in their entirety as is done on the full size railway.
I don’t know that Rokuhan would be any longer lasting or repairable.
ChrisG
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Mman
Offline wildstix  
#20 Posted : 22 July 2022 08:21:48(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 146
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
I managed to get the cover off the double slip in situ.

When I manipulated the mechanism manually, all four blades moved perfectly. However, now the solenoid would only operate in one direction. So I thought about either trying to get a spare Märklin solenoid and replace the existing one or completely remove the mechanism and go for an under-table drive - but both approaches have problems. But then the original problem reappeared even when manipulating the slip manually. Cursing

I feel you! That happened with me too!!! When opened, nothing seems disturbing the solenoid and the mechanical system, but they just won't work! 4 out of 4 that I'm working on, were all getting worse after I tried to clean, spray or reattaching the mechanical. The only thing that gets better were the electronic side, the solenoids are all works much better after my effort.Confused


Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
So I am coming to the conclusion that just swapping out the failed units (two other points have failed) for new ones is going to be my path of least pain. Crying


That is what I did as well! Glare
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
Märklin Z scale (mini-club) purist but not a modeler!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by wildstix
Offline Carim  
#21 Posted : 09 October 2022 11:54:01(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 649
Location: London
The story continues - when I took the slip apart, it seemed that part of the control rod (the very thin wire) had lost some of its ability to flex and so was not manipulating the tie bar. As soon as I started playing around with the control rod, it popped out and so did the other one. They are so thin, that when I tried to rebuild the mechanism they both distorted - I have no idea where to source such thin wire with the right degree of stiffness. So this slip is heading to the junk box.

I then bought a new one. It worked fine out of the box. It was quite a job to get the new slip into the correct position on the layout, but I did it. I wired it all up and just tried it out. It only works intermittently now and one blade refuses to move at all! Cursing Cursing Cursing Crying

I am never going to buy another 8560 again.

However, expecting other solenoids to fail, I bought a couple of MP1 point motors made by MTB (www.mtb-model.com). These are small enough to fit under my baseboard (I only have a depth of 5cm to play with); so I am going to try converting an 8560 to work with these. I will post again if I get it to work.

Carim
Offline JohnjeanB  
#22 Posted : 09 October 2022 12:11:14(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Carim
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post

I then bought a new one. It worked fine out of the box. It was quite a job to get the new slip into the correct position on the layout, but I did it. I wired it all up and just tried it out. It only works intermittently now and one blade refuses to move at all! Cursing Cursing Cursing Crying

Of course I may be wrong but these 8560 are fragile and chances are they are under stress (bent or warped) when installed. Maybe you could try to remove it, check if it is working again 100% then re-install it.
Good luck
Jean

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline Carim  
#23 Posted : 09 October 2022 15:20:28(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 649
Location: London
Hi Jean,

Yes, the 8560 is very fragile. Therefore, I lifted all the track around it, modified those pieces to allow the track joiners to slip completely onto them, placed the 8560 onto the board flat and flush with all the adjoining rails. I then just pushed the rail joiners from the adjoining rails to link up with the 8560. I also wired feeder cables to all the adjoining rails so I didn't have to rely on the 8560 for electrical continuity. Finally, I wired up the 8560 itself.

I just can't find the energy to undo all of that and re-do it with no guarantee that it will improve the situation. At the moment, it works like a single slip, so I can carry out most of the train movements I want, with some engine changes just requiring a few more shunting moves than if I had a fully functioning double slip.

I think an under board solution is the way to go because then if there are any future point motor failures, I won't have to lift any track.

Carim

Edited by user 10 October 2022 09:45:36(UTC)  | Reason: corrected typing errors

Offline Mman  
#24 Posted : 09 October 2022 15:21:32(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 247
Location: England, Guildford
Too late for now but if you ever start a new layout and don’t need circuit tracks consider Rokuhan track instead. Much more durable with its track bed ( like Märklin C track). Has slips, curved turnouts and uncouplers on the range but no circuit tracks.
Seem to get better adhesion too, different rail profile?
ChrisG
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Mman
Offline wildstix  
#25 Posted : 10 October 2022 05:08:35(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 146
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Carim Go to Quoted Post
Hi Jean,

Yes, the 8560 is very fragile. Therefore, I lifted all the track around it, modified those pieces to allow the track joiners to slip completely onto them, placed the 8560 onto the board flat and flush with all the adjoining rails. I then just push the rail joiners from the adjoining rails to link up with the 8560. I also wire feeder cables to all the adjoining rails so I don't have to rely on the 8560 for electrical continuity. Finally, I wire up the 8560 itself.

I just can't find the energy to undo all of that and re-do it with no guarantee that it will improve the situation. At the moment, it works like a single slip, so I can carry out most of the train movements I want, with some engine changes just requiring a few more shunting moves than if I had a fully functioning double slip.

I think an under board solution is the way to go because then if there are any future point motor failures, I won't have to lift any track.

Carim


Remember I told you that I decided to replace the messed up 8560 with the new one? Well I got the new 8560 but after reading this thread, I had a very deep doubt about it. So, I decided not to put 8560 at all in my layout. Now, knowing that you got problem with the new 8560, I'm glad I didn't reinstall it in my layout.
What a shame! 🤨😞
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
Märklin Z scale (mini-club) purist but not a modeler!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by wildstix
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.917 seconds.