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Offline einotuominen  
#1 Posted : 29 September 2022 18:47:42(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Hello,

I bought a used V100 (H0) from eBay and disected it today in order to replace the motor and install a decoder.

I've already bought older decoder model no: 60760 because it was cheap and I don't want to break anything expensive on my first project.

But I have yet to buy the motor and frankly I have no idea how to select a correct one. I have attached a picture of the disected loco. Please advice? Blink

Best regards,
-Eino

PS. Image of the old motor and "housing" https://drive.google.com...RkgvGcX/view?usp=sharing

[img=https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OU25R58h9ieF28lXP7_tcBCjPRkgvGcX/view?usp=sharing]V100[/img]
Offline owidgie  
#2 Posted : 29 September 2022 19:36:55(UTC)
owidgie

United States   
Joined: 03/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 127
Hello Eino, the short answer is you need the 60945 motor set.

Any future motor conversion questions can be found here:
Marklin Digital Newsletter May-June_Vol 30 No 3 2018.pdf (901kb) downloaded 29 time(s).

Rick
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Offline einotuominen  
#3 Posted : 29 September 2022 19:48:43(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Hello,

Ok… but 60945 seems to be just a decoder with sound?

https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/60945

Edit:
By looking at that excellent guide, I gather the old engine is a DCM and the correct set would be 60941?


BR,
-Eino
Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#4 Posted : 29 September 2022 21:20:35(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 331
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Hi Eino,

To me it looks like your locomotive has the LFCM = Large Flat Collector Motor, in which case the correct upgrade pack would be 60944. That most likely is what Rick intended to say.

Others can probably comment on whether the decoder that came with 60760 is OK with the 60944 pack.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
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Offline einotuominen  
#5 Posted : 29 September 2022 21:57:46(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Ah yes, you are absolutely right!
Offline French_Fabrice  
#6 Posted : 29 September 2022 22:02:10(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,433
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Eino,

Unfortunately, it may not be so simple. It depends on the age of the loco.
Do you know the Marklin item number of your loco ?

If it is like 3072, 3141, 3372 or 3672, and more generally a 4 digit number, then putting a kit 60944 needs to trim both the magnet and the frame with a file Cursing !
For an example of this trimming job, see https://www.marklin-users.net/Intruder/ and conversion of 3772 https://www.marklin-user...in/Tog/sites/d/3772.html

There is a simpler alternative: Buy a ESU magnet 51960 to replace the coil, and keep the 3 pole rotor of the motor, then put a decoder...

Ah, I've seen your picture: V100-2215 is the 3072 Marklin item.
I've converted mine with the ESU Magnet + a Lokpilot decoder, and it works fine...

Good luck
Fabrice
Offline nhumps  
#7 Posted : 30 September 2022 01:53:46(UTC)
nhumps

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 58
Location: Wellington
This is probably one of the more challenging locos to convert with the surgery required to the chassis (dremel etc) and permanent magnet. The link Fabrice has provided is great. Good luck!

My effort on my 3147 with regard to removing material from the magnet is over here https://www.marklin-user...lizing-a-3072#post636827
Offline einotuominen  
#8 Posted : 30 September 2022 07:29:58(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Thanks,

Let’s see what happens when the replacement motor arrives!

Great to have these tips in advance. Much appreciated.

One more question about the 60760 decoder. In the manual it says that brown and orange wires must never be connected. Isn’t ground just ground? I have understood that ground should be connected to the metal frame of the loco, but doesn’t this connect those two wires then?

BR,
-Eino
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#9 Posted : 30 September 2022 07:42:11(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,458
Location: New Zealand
No, the manual is correct - never connect brown to orange. The orange is not a ground return.
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Offline einotuominen  
#10 Posted : 30 September 2022 07:57:11(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
No, the manual is correct - never connect brown to orange. The orange is not a ground return.


Ah, so the orange I presumably just connect to LED cathode side then.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#11 Posted : 30 September 2022 14:05:21(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 7,110
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
No, the manual is correct - never connect brown to orange. The orange is not a ground return.


Ah, so the orange I presumably just connect to LED cathode side then.


Or the return of any other accessory (telex coupling, cab lighting, smoke generator - although this one will get away with using the chassis as the return).
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Offline nhumps  
#12 Posted : 02 October 2022 22:36:05(UTC)
nhumps

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 58
Location: Wellington
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
No, the manual is correct - never connect brown to orange. The orange is not a ground return.


Ah, so the orange I presumably just connect to LED cathode side then.


Actually the orange "ground return for functions" are actually positive returns. (Page 5 of the manual has some references to this: https://static.maerklin....78b479eb9f1571735037.pdf )

So for an LED, the cathode leg would be attached to the light/function output and the anode leg would be connected to an orange wire from the decoder.

You will also want a resistor in line on any side, eg ~1k ohms - opinions vary on this, last time I used 900ohms, use whatever gets you the right brightness (maybe even 900-4.7k)
Offline JohnjeanB  
#13 Posted : 03 October 2022 02:28:22(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,287
Location: Paris, France
Hi Eino

Like it has already been said, the key for you is to open the loco and look at the brushes
Here is a picture of two of my Märklin V100 locos
V100 Types.png
The loco on the top is the older design with LFCM (Large Flat Collector Motor) where the 2 brushes, one made of copper fabric and the other one of carbon are CYLINDRICAL and parallel to the motor's axle

The loco on the bottom is the newer design with DCM (Drum Collector Motor) where both brushes are carbon, rectangular section and moving TOWARDS the motor axle.

If your Loco has a DCM motor then very easy:
- either you use the COMPLETE set 60760 (a five pole motor and a simplified decoder)
- or you install a motor 60941 and a decoder (or the one you already have)

If your loco has a LFCM motor then it gets more tricky:
- you use a Märklin motor 60944 and a mlLD3 decoder or your decoder BUT you WILL have to adapt SIGNIFICANTLY the magnetic circuit to fit into the loco. This is a risky operation
A handdrill (Proxxon Dremel) and a cutting disk is needed for this task.

Here is a top view of each V100 type
V100 Types-top.png
As you may see, the loco on the top is the old design (LFCM) with a THIN magnetic circuit
The loco on the bottom has been modified by Märklin to include a 5 pole motor and a much THICKER magnetic circuit (so adapting the 60944 motor may pose priblems).
- another alternative is to use an ESU magnet (51960) for this kind of motor with your decoder

Here is the 60944 motor user's manual with the list of compatible locos and the V100 is NOT on the list (pages 5 and 6)https://static.maerklin....98976096f51557844893.pdf

I hope this will help
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
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Offline einotuominen  
#14 Posted : 03 October 2022 07:34:31(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Thank you Jean,

luckily I jave a Dremel at hand.

So this will be a hard conversion and I may even do an easier one before this, but I believe this kind of DIY is essential part of the hobby :)

BR,
-Eino
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#15 Posted : 03 October 2022 08:03:42(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,458
Location: New Zealand
Generally speaking, if you want to know the motor type for a Marklin analog loco without having to open up the loco, check Helmut Kern's website (this has been mentioned in the forum so many times, I'm surprised you didn't find it).

The original site appears to be dead but there is an archive on the LCTM site. The site lists Marklin analog locos up to the early 2000's with model numbers, road numbers, colour schemes and motor types.

http://www.lctm.info/Sec...hfkern/index.html?iframe

There are some exceptions - 3072 and 3048 being examples - 3072 needs modifications and 3048 needs a specific motor conversion (see https://www.marklin-user...3048-Digital-Conversion)
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Offline einotuominen  
#16 Posted : 03 October 2022 08:49:40(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Bigdaddynz,

a great resource. I do use google, but in english. During the first few weeks in to the hobby I have seriously started to consider learning some basic German language.

Offline bph  
#17 Posted : 03 October 2022 10:35:28(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 609
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Thank you Jean,

luckily I jave a Dremel at hand.

So this will be a hard conversion and I may even do an easier one before this, but I believe this kind of DIY is essential part of the hobby :)

BR,
-Eino


You could also go for the "easy" option with a 60906, with that decoder you can keep the original motor. (but the decoder lacks load regulation, and sound).

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Offline einotuominen  
#18 Posted : 21 October 2022 12:46:39(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Hi guys!

So I had a great success with the conversion and then a some sort of failure I don't know what exactly.

So I managed to cut all the metal pieces to fit perfectly, I'm very proud, this is my second conversion! You can see images here: https://drive.google.com...NOPhlwqj6PDq?usp=sharing

I also got the new motor 60944 assembled somewhat perfectly. Also the decoder 60760 got soldered in.

The loco worked! It drove on my test track and on my layout. For a while. Then it came to a full halt and I'm yet to figure out what is the reason. There seems to be no loose wires or connection anywhere.

The ground connection was first soldered to a screw of the original reversing unit. But I had the screw to far and the plastic chassis didn't fit so I had to re attach ground connection. I'm not sure if something bad happened there. I have now soldered the ground to new location as you can see on the picture at the Google drive link above.

I'm no good in electronics. I should most likely buy a multimeter, but even then, I have no idea what I'm supposed to measure when trying to find what is the issue.

Also I didn't manage to get LED lights working. I first tried with a 1 kilo ohm resistor and nothing happened. Then I also tried the other light with no resistor and nothing there also. There are pictures of these in the Google drive link above aswell.

The logo worked before and after the attempted LED installation.

How easily are these decoders fried and how can I find out if that is the case? I do have another spare and two more ordered, but I'm glueless on how to find out what is wrong.

Thank you for your help!

Best regards,
-Eino

EDIT!!!
The problem indeed was the ground connection. I bought a multimeter and it revealed the issue straight away. The decoder ground is now connected so that the multimeter beeps when touching one wheel and the black wire attached to the hull. Loco works now except for lights.
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Offline nhumps  
#19 Posted : 21 October 2022 21:29:52(UTC)
nhumps

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 58
Location: Wellington
Hi Eino,

Motor plate looks great, and very nice work on the magnet, far better than my first and second conversions :)

Obviously out of the box the 60760 will only illuminate one front or rear LED at a time, when testing have you enabled F0 on your controller and then changed direction?
If that isn't the answer my guess would be you have the LED polarity swapped? I can't quite tell for sure from the google drive photos. If you've shortened the LED legs and kept the length then yes for the yellow wire for rear lights the polarity is reversed.

Originally Posted by: nhumps Go to Quoted Post

So for an LED, the cathode leg would be attached to the light/function output and the anode leg would be connected to an orange wire from the decoder.


The grey wire for front headlights does not look to have a resistor inline? Depending on how everything fits in the chassis you could probably get away with a single resistor on the orange return (positive) side since the lights are alternating on and off with direction change. Else put one resister on each of the hot wires (yellow/gray) for lights.

I think the 60760 are hard to blow up unless perhaps you connect the orange positive return to track ground. The Lights, Motor and AUX are ground protected on Marklin decoders. You can blow a sound decoder by connecting sound outputs to track ground.

Offline einotuominen  
#20 Posted : 21 October 2022 21:54:41(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Hi and thank you!

Yes the polarity is swapped as I reasoned that hot wires must connect to anode… I’ll try them the other way around asap.

What I can’t really understand is the logic in this. I’m at the very beginning of electronics. Also I can’t understand what good is the resistor for after the cathode? Also what bothers me is why it could work in the orange aswell?
Offline JohnjeanB  
#21 Posted : 21 October 2022 21:57:55(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,287
Location: Paris, France
Hi Eino
Bravo for the multimeter. I use mine all the time.
If you are using LEDs then you MUST have a resistor is series (1 k to 4.7 kOhms). Failing to do this will either destroy the decoder output or the LED
The decoder output (yellow or grey) must be connected to the CATHODE of the LED, The anode must be connected to the function return wire (orange).
If connected the wrong way the LED won't be lighted
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
marshalling yard
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Offline nhumps  
#22 Posted : 21 October 2022 22:18:33(UTC)
nhumps

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 58
Location: Wellington
The resistor can be placed anywhere in series in the circuit. It is probably easy to place 1 resistor attached to any leg of each LED to keep it simple.

It would work on the orange as that is the common positive return for lights (and Aux functions) as both LED anodes need to connect to orange (via a resistor).

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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#23 Posted : 21 October 2022 22:56:49(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,458
Location: New Zealand
The resistors are there to stop the LED's from frying themselves - they limit the amount of current the LED can draw. See https://learn.sparkfun.c...emitting-diodes-leds/all for more info.

As for the ground connection, the motor kits, and I think the 60760 kit, usually comes with a brass solder tag which is meant to be fitted on one of the motor screws in between the magnet and brush plate. When the screw is tightened up, this gives a good grounding point to solder a ground wire to. Soldering directly to a screw won't last, the wire will come off and I'm not too sure about soldering to the chassis - you would need to remove paint to get a decent solder point.

The solder tags are Marklin part number E231470


Screenshot 2022-10-22 095538.JPG
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#24 Posted : 22 October 2022 00:30:00(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 7,110
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post

As for the ground connection, the motor kits, and I think the 60760 kit, usually comes with a brass solder tag which is meant to be fitted on one of the motor screws in between the magnet and brush plate. When the screw is tightened up, this gives a good grounding point to solder a ground wire to.


Normally the solder tag is under the head of one of the screws holding the brush plate on.

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post

Soldering directly to a screw won't last, the wire will come off and I'm not too sure about soldering to the chassis - you would need to remove paint to get a decent solder point.


You would need a blow torch to attempt to solder to the chassis as the bulk of metal will conduct the heat away too fast for a normal soldering iron. It is not the correct type of metal to attempt to solder to anyway.

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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#25 Posted : 22 October 2022 07:55:00(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,458
Location: New Zealand
Sometimes the solder tag on the motor isn't enough. For my Marklin 3153 and 3353 BR 120 locos the solder tag on the motor isn't enough grounding because the wheels on the motor bogie all have rubber tyres so the ground contact patch isn't that great. The solution is to drill a small hole in the loco chassis floor and fix a solder tag to the floor with a short self tapping screw that doesn't protrude beneath the chassis too much. Solder a wire to that tag and the other end to the motor tag. That improves the running of those locos out of sight!
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Offline einotuominen  
#26 Posted : 23 October 2022 11:33:00(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Sometimes the solder tag on the motor isn't enough. For my Marklin 3153 and 3353 BR 120 locos the solder tag on the motor isn't enough grounding because the wheels on the motor bogie all have rubber tyres so the ground contact patch isn't that great. The solution is to drill a small hole in the loco chassis floor and fix a solder tag to the floor with a short self tapping screw that doesn't protrude beneath the chassis too much. Solder a wire to that tag and the other end to the motor tag. That improves the running of those locos out of sight!


Yes, this is why I automatically ditched the idea of attaching ground connection to the engine, even though the manual instructs to do so.
Offline einotuominen  
#27 Posted : 23 October 2022 20:28:06(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
LEDs are working aswell. I had 5mm LEDs which are absolutely a nightmare to fit in, but managed to do it. Got to get smaller LEDs in the future!

Thank you guys!

-Eino
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