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Offline BenP  
#1 Posted : 08 May 2022 00:14:22(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 86
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
I got green LEDs as replacement for my vintage marklin 7188 signals. They work fine in analog mode with classis 4-button switch box.
The leds do not work when signal is powered from a k83 decoder in my digital layout. Surprisingly, lights works when switching yellow current and signal ground connections. However, then the solenoid does not get power, so no pulse switch.

The led bulbs are not polarity sensitive and work fine when fed from digital track power. The k83 decoder connection somehow changes the nature of current out to yellow plug.

What is happening? Is there a solution?

Ben
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Online Mark5  
#2 Posted : 08 May 2022 05:51:56(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,294
Location: Canada
These are the kinds of questions I have had and continue to have before we connect our older signals to the k83s. Looking forward to anyone's feedback.
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline kiwiAlan  
#3 Posted : 08 May 2022 12:06:24(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,858
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
I got green LEDs as replacement for my vintage marklin 7188 signals. They work fine in analog mode with classis 4-button switch box.
The leds do not work when signal is powered from a k83 decoder in my digital layout. Surprisingly, lights works when switching yellow current and signal ground connections. However, then the solenoid does not get power, so no pulse switch.

The led bulbs are not polarity sensitive and work fine when fed from digital track power. The k83 decoder connection somehow changes the nature of current out to yellow plug.

What is happening? Is there a solution?

Ben


The k83 uses DC for its internal electronics, and switches that to drive the solenoid in the signal. So the signal solenoids should work correctly. However the bulb relies on a connection back to the rails for its return path. You may need to make a connection from the signal base plate to the brown track connection on the k83 if you are using C track or K track, or don't have the signal base plate clamped to M track.

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Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 08 May 2022 12:41:15(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,083
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
I got green LEDs as replacement for my vintage marklin 7188 signals. They work fine in analog mode with classis 4-button switch box.
The leds do not work when signal is powered from a k83 decoder in my digital layout. Surprisingly, lights works when switching yellow current and signal ground connections. However, then the solenoid does not get power, so no pulse switch.

The led bulbs are not polarity sensitive and work fine when fed from digital track power. The k83 decoder connection somehow changes the nature of current out to yellow plug.

What is happening? Is there a solution?

Ben

Hi Ben
"LED lights have no polarity" Yes and no. There are 2 types one with a single diode and others with a bridge rectifier.
The first one may not work with the K83 or M83 providing a positive output on the yellow plug.
This type on ebay Germany states clearly there is a bridge (Brückengleichrichter) so that the LED will work WHATEVER the polarity is
https://www.ebay.de/itm/38424661...wkQ%7Ctkp%3ABFBMxvzqs5Rg
This is the type I use.
Look on this video at my old Märklin signals (7039, 7040,7041, etc) with LED-only lighting


Cheers
Jean


My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Online Mark5  
#5 Posted : 08 May 2022 14:51:59(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,294
Location: Canada
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

Hi Ben
"LED lights have no polarity" Yes and no. There are 2 types one with a single diode and others with a bridge rectifier.
The first one may not work with the K83 or M83 providing a positive output on the yellow plug.
This type on ebay Germany states clearly there is a bridge (Brückengleichrichter) so that the LED will work WHATEVER the polarity is
https://www.ebay.de/itm/384246611932?epid=2260768013
This is the type I use.
Look on this video at my old Märklin signals (7039, 7040,7041, etc) with LED-only lighting
Jean


Hi Jean, I took a look at the ebay listing. It says the LEDs are EUR 10.74 a pop!
(Aside from the listing saying "the seller does not ship to Canada")
That would make almost more worth it for me to buy newer signals Laugh

What about soldering new tiny LEDs oneself or rewiring the lights from the signal as Alan suggests?
- Mark
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline BenP  
#6 Posted : 08 May 2022 17:31:36(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 86
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
These are the kinds of questions I have had and continue to have before we connect our older signals to the k83s. Looking forward to anyone's feedback.


I connect 20 or so 7039 and 7188 signals and 20 or so m track turnouts to k83s, which all work wonderfully (incl lights). I decided to replace old bulbs with leds to lower power consumption on growing layout. That's where the k83 connection creates a challenge. I'll do some testing tomorrow based on other responses, so stay tuned.
B
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 08 May 2022 17:39:00(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,083
Location: Paris, France
Hi Mark
You are right, my example the LED was right but the price was wrong.
Here is the same article, same price but for a quantity of 5
https://www.ebay.de/itm/25486788...f55ae:g:MH8AAOSwER1gKW7i
This is the price you must be prepared to pay to forget about changing bulbs and reducing drastically the current drain
On my layout, except on the decoupling masts all bulbs are gone (trains, signals, switches, houses, etc)
To be noted: some LED replacements are really "shitty" like the Viessmann LED bulbs E5.5. Very often, the LED is not attached to the socket and can get destroyed easily
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline PMPeter  
#8 Posted : 09 May 2022 00:20:53(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,193
Location: Port Moody, BC
Has anyone tried converting the older Viessmann block signals 4516 to LEDs? The older versions have the bi-pin lamps over which the signal head gets pushed into place. The opening in the signal head is only 2.5mm which is smaller than the body of the 1.8mm LEDs (Approx. 4mm). Perhaps a prewired SMD might work, but would require removal of the bi-pin plug and wires which could be a task.

Peter
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Offline BenP  
#9 Posted : 09 May 2022 17:08:12(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 86
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
I did some testing and found the answer: this particular LED
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294482539108?var=593044434873

The green LED is polarity sensitive when powered from DC source, with current to bottom of LED.
The green LED works with standard AC power (yellow, brown) from white transformer, regardless of polarity (switching wires).
The green LED works with digital AC power (red and brown) from CS3, regardless of polarity (switching wires).
The green LED connected to k83 decoder (yellow current wire and brown ground) only works when brown connects to bottom of led (current), instead of yellow. So now it is polarity sensitive, just like DC transformer source, but with ground as lead. A yellow-brown wire switch does not activate the solenoid, obviously, which requires normal yellow current and brown ground.

I have white LEDs from another supplier and they work fine in all setups (incl normal yellow-brown from k83), and are also not polarity sensitive in DC.

Thus, the green LEDs are polarity sensitive from k83, like they are from the DC source, except that the wires are now switched. The white LEDs are not DC polarity sensitive, so yellow-brown wire to LED does not matter, which provides a quick test for suitable replacement bulbs.

Now contacting vendor and ask what they suggest, since these are advertised as Marklin bulb replacements.
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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#10 Posted : 09 May 2022 17:44:03(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 3,179
Location: CA, USA
Hi all,

This is halfway related, but since it is on my bench this week I thought I'd mention it:

They do make Bicolor LEDs which are not polarity sensitive in terms of connecting properly, and switch color with a change in polarity. I was engaging with these in the context of LED direction indication on a control panel (for turnouts), but now I want to find a way to use them for single light signals- cheap and easy. (this is all on my HOm narrow gauge project, so a much more rural single track line)

Anyhow, only a bit related as mentioned, but know they exist and are cheap. Here is what I bought:

https://www.amazon.com/d...2ov_dt_b_product_details

FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
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Online Mark5  
#11 Posted : 11 May 2022 03:04:41(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,294
Location: Canada
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
I did some testing and found the answer: this particular LED
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294482539108?var=593044434873
[......]
Now contacting vendor and ask what they suggest, since these are advertised as Marklin bulb replacements.


Hi Ben,
The seller from the link you provided does not ship to Canada, according to the listing.

Was that the vendor you were contacting, and did you manage to get them shipped to Michigan?

- Mark

Edited by user 14 May 2022 20:20:21(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline BenP  
#12 Posted : 11 May 2022 04:07:33(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 86
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
I did some testing and found the answer: this particular LED
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294482539108?var=593044434873
[......]
Now contacting vendor and ask what they suggest, since these are advertised as Marklin bulb replacements.


Hi Ben,
The seller from the link you provided does not ship to Canada, according to the listing.

Was that the vendor you were contacting, and did you manage to get them shipped to Michigan?

- Mark


Got them in less than 2 weeks shipped to MI. No response to my query yet.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by BenP
Offline BenP  
#13 Posted : 13 May 2022 13:49:23(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 86
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
I did some testing and found the answer: this particular LED
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294482539108?var=593044434873
[......]
Now contacting vendor and ask what they suggest, since these are advertised as Marklin bulb replacements.


Hi Ben,
The seller from the link you provided does not ship to Canada, according to the listing.

Was that the vendor you were contacting, and did you manage to get them shipped to Michigan?

- Mark


Got them in less than 2 weeks shipped to MI. No response to my query yet.


The ebay vendor told me that this issue has not reached them before.
My use is specialized, though all Marklin gear (7188 + k83). The bulbs work great in analog AC and digital AC, which is their typical use. The k83 produces a polarity switched DC signal (why?) that these LEDs don't support (I tested with several k83 units).
Perhaps the vendor will include this property, as other LED replacement bulbs do not have a DC polarity restriction.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by BenP
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