( Old title of thread was Which controller for my needs? CS3, ECoS, Viessmann, IB? until post #20
And other title "Decided on CS3... etc". I'll keep this current title "Learning CS3" not to confuse; I'll just change after + to indicate current issue. )

Hello all,

I have read a lot of posts over the years and I am thinking I have to take the plunge and just try some other control systems. So far we have had fun with using a 6021 with 80f and have bought or were graciously given some material to expand, however its time to make it all work. For some decoders when we used the 6021 we were able to get 8 sounds and\or functions by assigning two addresses to one lok when Marklin used ESU decoders in some models. Not sure the MFX or any other Marklin decoder can use multiple addresses to enable all the potential functions. If not they really are cheating the customer by not allowing to use the full capacity of the product, but as they do in tech, their product, their rules I guess. Be that as it may, I would like to use a Connect6021 to link my 6021 and 80f to (maybe) a CS3. HOWEVER IF i am reading the posts and literature correctly its a bit of a letdown that I read you cannot get feedback controls to work seamlessly on a CS3 which is why at the time I acquired the interface for PC control. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Is there anyway that you know of to get all potential sounds and functions for a Marklin loco with any of the available PC software out there?

Do I still need a CS3 just to get the functions and sounds and to apply DC to the rails instead of AC? (sort of two questions sorry and its not clear really. Just want to know the alternatives to achieve the same results I guess.)

If you are a PC software user for train control, and you were starting over again, which software and controllers would you ideally use to set yourself up with if you were me?

My requirements in order of priority might be:

1 - Track detection with feedback modules to trigger switches and signals so that I can set up scheduled automated runs. I loved using reed switches with block sections for semaphores in analog until they would not fire properly anymore, and it yet it seems that its limited in a CS3 to create a cascade of events to get routinely triggered, or am i wrong? I like the idea of several trains running routes automatically while you control a couple of others in a yard or branch line.
(Another sub-question, can I use m83 to trigger feedback? I have about 10 of them.)

2 - Automatically scheduled Braking modules that truly work with squealing brakes and don't just stop a loco dead. If a loco encounters a block section occupied, it should know well enough ahead of time in order to have smooth braking with its lovely sounds and of braking and slowing throttle or whatever engine sounds they would have be they steam, diesel or electric.

3 - Sounds, most or all of them. I love the sound but its not an absolute game changer for me. I often leave the sound off to think and work on what I am doing. I don't like how Marklin lists the digital functions on their pages with a ranking system that seems to constantly outdate the previous generation of controllers.
Higher number CS1, 2, 3, then more sounds and function. I mean it make sense, but it seems with a bit of foresight they would have allowed for enough space to trigger tiny sound files in their system. Of course I know the controllers do a lot more than just enable the sounds and functions, but that's they way they are listed when 'shopping' for a lok by looking for details on the Marklin site.

4 - Interoperability between controllers and the reduction of redundant systems. THAT SAID... having easily accessible and direct control of the 6021 instead of tweaking menus is a huge advantage when sharing a layout with a friend or family member. I love the bright red numbers and push button controls. With a 6021 t anyone can learn basic control in a few minutes. At shows our analog layout was a huge hit with the direct control panel we built. We would pass out "Mädchenbahn Lokführer" certificates to the kids when they went through a few hoops operating the control panel. They would beam.
(You can see the kids working on the old layout and see the final result at the bottom with the control panel at the bottom. A couple of the shots are from shows. http://madchenbahn.com/show-layout.htm )

Message a bit longer than intended so I will leave it at this. If you think there are other important considerations I should take into account, please let me know. I am open to any and all suggestions at this stage.

Thank you all so much for this great community.
- Mark

Edited by user 17 May 2022 02:03:09(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I once started with a 6021 and PC connection and a Basic-program I wrote myself. I upgraded to a CS1 and then a CS2 when they arrived. I am now using the Train Controller software. What I noticed early on was that the software was able to issue commands for functions not yet available with the controllers (CS1 and CS2). The functions (above 16 as I recall) were performed by the decoders in the engines. That is probably the case with the 6021 as well.
I suggest that you download a program and test if this is true for you. A test version of most programs can be downloaded for free.
For automation a PC program is far better than any controller. However you have to have something that allows the PC to communicate with your layout. Not just the with the engines but also receive feedback. For feedback I didn’t want to go thru the CS1 so I had all my S88s go directly to the PC using a LDT HSI-88. They still do.

They track better than a CS3 does as far as with automated operating per the lates Marklin digital webinar. At least thats what I understood.

I have now checked how my 6021 was connected to the PC. It was a 6051 Interface with a serial cable. I guess a 6051 box is hard to find and a PC with a serial port even harder – but not impossible.

All very helpful comments and questions. Thank you so much everyone.
I am really excited about getting things rolling.

Bild: You have an amazing history with the 6021 by writing your own programs (was going to say apps but thats kind of anachronistic) in BASIC. Impressive. I have been spending some time going through the Rocrail documentation so my intention is try it out with a simple layout. Good to know I can download the demo/trail version of other software to try it. And I do have the 6051 interface and a cable for the 6051 with a USB connection, so in that case, no serial port needs; I am guessing it will work. Finally to say that connecting the s88 directly to the PC sounds like a great way to eliminate the need for the s88link. So much yet to try it out after finishing kitchen reno...

So now I am to understand that my m83 units will only send a signal and power to drive switch motors or signals etc and not receive back information from sensors, contact rail to trigger events, is that correct?

Jean: I was wondering if I were to use only the interface and s88s for feedback, would I need anything else. Is the old Memory box (60xx?) and 6040 Keyboard rendered obsolete by connecting to PC control and/or can the 6040 keyboard be used in tandem with PC control? Will using the keyboard show the position of the switch in the software?

One thing I noticed in the network diagram of the CS3 is that the Connect6021 unit is connected to another unit and not to the CS3 directly. So many intermediate units along the way. Budgets are in order.

I do have to say that your comment about not having overlap of functionality ...
"There is little capability overlap between the CS3 and Rocrail" puts the whole approach in perspective for me. The two have their domains. Now with the limitations of the 6021 would they still be limited to not serving DCC and Mfx as slaves, in so far as all the processing were done through as CS3. When you say the 6021 doesnt do MFx you mean cab control, which I am not sure I need, since my MFx locos will run with the 6021 if I recall correctly.
(Since going to the Big E and meeting up with Dale Schultz in 2020 the trains have largely been in the box over 2 years due to all the changes in schedules and worries of the crazy Quebec lockdowns. ...and with my girls now all teenagers they are more interested in school and social activities. Nonetheless they still work on modelling and crafts and suffer train movies with me so all hope is not lost for them. )

So far my plan is first 1) to play around with a CS3 and decide if I need to return it before 30 day return option is up. Likely not enough time to get to do the basics of what I want to do. 2) Then try connection to Rocrail in stages, first without the CS3, just using the 6021 and the interface, then 3) with the CS3.

Would anyone recommend a different path? I absolutely want a system that tells me where the locomotives might be if I build a sizable shadow yard, and the idea of just seeing it mapped it in order to trigger events that run the trains automatically, like clockwork, is a goal I have had since I first started arranging sequences in analog with the reed switches and semaphores opening and closing blocks and starting up different trains.

Very happy to have your feedback. It's most encouraging.
- Mark

According to Marklin System Architecture diagrams a 6021 requires a 60128 "Connect 6021" to interface with a CS2 or CS3 (IIRC for a CS1 also).

I currently have a 6021, CS1, CS2 and CS3 and CS3+ hooked together. After having used each of them for at least two years I would never use anything but the CS3's. It is fast, robust and the best choice for running Marklin equipment. That is not to say it is the best for DCC, writing software routines or programming and running other manufacturers' equipment on a Marklin system.

Regards,
Roger

Hello Mark,

A long time ago (many years), I've purchased a 6021 Connect, and plugged all the 6021 family stuff with a CS2.
If I remember well, I had issues when trying to send switch commands from Rocrail to the turnouts driven by the 6021/6040. I don't know if it was due to old versions of Rocrail, but it was extremely slow therefore not really compatible with some kind of Real time processing an automated train layout would need.
Another point, even if Rocrail is normally able to deal with the 6050 interface, beware of the cable between 6050 and PC serial interface. I remember having soldered manually the cable with TD, RD, CTS and GND to a 9 pin serial plug, with of course the nightmare to find out the right wiring diagram .

All of this, plus the technology evolution, would lead me to recommend you to directly jump to connect Rocrail with the CS3, thru a PC hub or switch. It's much easier...
You may have a look at the first posts of this thread: https://www.marklin-user...ftware---Tips-and-tricks ,which will provide you the basics of automation...

Good luck and have fun
Fabrice

You're welcome! I created that thread as a reference thread for commonly asked questions / manuals / downloads, etc - mainly because I couldn't always find stuff myself! I hoped everyone would benefit from what started out as a selfish need! There's no forum mirror that I'm aware of, although Juhan does from time to time makes a copy of the forum to a spare server he has for testing purposes. I'm sure the hosting service has some redundancy and of course there are regular backups.



There is a transparent version of the Marklin 6021, the Marklin 60211.

Like Rwill I have gone from 6021 to CS1 Cs2 and now CS3 PLus. Never needed or wanted anything other than the Marklin CS3 Plus as it does everything I need and I enjoy driving trains and as the CS3 controls routes and shuttles etc why would I want any other software. Too much automation takes away from the hobby is just my view.

There is several other digital system out there in the market too.
Märklin offer customer DCC protocol in the digital locomotives too so you can use other digital system by use DCC alone on the track.
I never use my computer to control the layout when you have digital system that do the work.

Hi Mark
As you know the CS3 is derived from the CS2 (same box, same size screen, almost same inputs and outputs.
There is one difference: The standard 4 pin power socket, common to the CS2 and CS3. 2 of these pins are used to bring DC (19 VDC or 15 VDC with latest 60041), while the 2 other pins where used to bring AC 16VAC from a transformer.
Well not on a CS3, those 2 "AC" pins are not connected.

Here is the power cable and its connector pin-out


The key difference is that the more recent switched power supplies are regulated (to 19,3V on all my supplies 60061 and 60101) while the transformer supply is fluctuating with the load and with the mains voltage. This results even with the most sophisticated and latest locos in speed fluctuation The input voltage is not part of the regulation on ALL Märklin loco decoders

So Switched power supply means DC regulated supply with a delayed over-current cut out.
Cheers
Jean

Each m83 get power from CS, just like track power (red and brown wires). No need for extra power supply for these decoders as they don't draw continuously. I have 16 m83s connected like that to a CS3+ without any issue. I do use a power supply for l88 (~$10 on amazon), although CS3+ does not require that (built-in).

Even switched power use ac power from the wall socket.
If the power from the wall fluctuating the switched power supply react.
Fluctuating are seldom.

Google translate are porr.
Strömspikning/ power nailing
In both case ac and dc power.
To produce ac trafo are matter of cost for the Märklin.
Märklins trafo are expensive.

That is incorrect.
The 83 decoder gives a timed pulse only (used for switches and signals), not continuous. The 84 decoder is for continuous power, like lights and motorized devices.

The current version of the m 83, the #68032, has various modes for permanent power output to control lights. The manuals can be found on the website. 60832

8 outputs rated for 0.2 A each give a maximum continuous output of 1.6 A. That's the point where external power supplies make sense.

I stand corrected. Described my k83 and k84 units, not newer m versions.

Hi Mark
1- One possibility is to command each output independently, another is to set an output as a blinker. These possibilities are described in the 60831 manual andf not in the newer 60832 manual. Have these functions disappeared? I don't know.

2 -Not really because the CS2 / CS3 activates solenoids one after the other.
Yes there could be exceptions if you program an M83 to last much longer (e.g.: 5 S) but in this case the activation is not continuous.

3 -Yes this is exactly what they are for.

4 -There is no real limit up to 5 PROVIDED you plug the units straight in line (no extension cable allowed.)

5 - It means that no matter the input voltage between 110V and 230 VAC is acceptable provided the frequency is 50Hz to 60 Hz

Cheers
Jean

Jean,
The functions have not disappeared. Marklin publishes a separate "Tecnhnical Manual" for the 60832. It can be found on the Marklin website.

Regards,
Roger

If I may,

The wallwart power supplies of the 6636x series started life as
- 66361 = 220-240VAC
- 66365 = 100-120VAC 60Hz ONLY (as per the manual)

since then there has been updates as
- 66360 = 220-240VAC 50-60Hz
- 66367 = 100-120VAC 50-60Hz
(STOP Press, as of the recent 2205 manual release Marklin are telegraphing a 66362 i.e. UK pin out)
https://static.maerklin....5dca5840641651652794.pdf

If you are thinking of trading, then I suggest trading for a 66367 if your house supply is ~110VAC
However the recent items do state 50-60Hz,

Re: ROI, The 663xx may also be utilised with the the 60883 LinkS88

Re: 60822, Personally I do not use them for m83/m84 (the 663xx plugs in directly)

Hi Peter

On the units I have 60831 and 60832, the time is adjustable from 200 ms up to 5000ms BUT past 0.5 S, the activation is not continuous but drives a solenoid like a machine gun thus reducing the average current on these output. Besides for many of us, durations above 300 mS are rare, 200mS is the CS2 / CS3 norm and can even be reduced to 100mS using Rocrail (In this case the duration is set by the software with a fail-safe duration on the 60832).
Cheers
Jean

Thank you Jean,
So as current output is reduced are there still possibilities of solenoid burnout like there are in analog?

Other than current reduction to avoid burnout, I am not sure of the need to have such a wide range of use adjustable time from 200ms to 5000ms. ...um.. or wait, was that how you set up your water spout movement by timing them with Rocrail, as I recall reading a while ago? I am sure there numerous great applications, just need to get my fingers dirty and test out a few options.

Also if I wanted to use the old M-track solenoids for switches and signals would I need another one of the many M-boxes to switch from DC back to AC? ... or is it safe to use the m83 just pushing DC to the solenoid to switch it. Or do I not understand the process correctly?

And the circuit for signal lights bulb or LEDs themselves, they would/could/should be powered independently of the m83?

Thank you for all the feedback. It would be a minefield to do this without guidance, since I am not an electrical engineer.
But I am determined to understand how to make my probably overly ambitious plan to work.

Was hoping to use M-track and some C-track in the shadowlands and K-track ballasted in the display areas.
- Mark

Edited by user 06 May 2022 19:19:20(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Model train fun guy!

There is a lot of video in the Youtube by check at Märklins CS3.
I like it and in this case it´s useful for everbody to learn about CS3.
There is also other digital system that shows in the Youtube how to use them.