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Offline Mark5  
#1 Posted : 21 April 2022 01:19:01(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,292
Location: Canada
( Old title of thread was Which controller for my needs? CS3, ECoS, Viessmann, IB? until post #20
And other title "Decided on CS3... etc". I'll keep this current title "Learning CS3" not to confuse; I'll just change after + to indicate current issue. )


Hello all,

I have read a lot of posts over the years and I am thinking I have to take the plunge and just try some other control systems. So far we have had fun with using a 6021 with 80f and have bought or were graciously given some material to expand, however its time to make it all work. For some decoders when we used the 6021 we were able to get 8 sounds and\or functions by assigning two addresses to one lok when Marklin used ESU decoders in some models. Not sure the MFX or any other Marklin decoder can use multiple addresses to enable all the potential functions. If not they really are cheating the customer by not allowing to use the full capacity of the product, but as they do in tech, their product, their rules I guess. Be that as it may, I would like to use a Connect6021 to link my 6021 and 80f to (maybe) a CS3. HOWEVER IF i am reading the posts and literature correctly its a bit of a letdown that I read you cannot get feedback controls to work seamlessly on a CS3 which is why at the time I acquired the interface for PC control. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Is there anyway that you know of to get all potential sounds and functions for a Marklin loco with any of the available PC software out there?

Do I still need a CS3 just to get the functions and sounds and to apply DC to the rails instead of AC? (sort of two questions sorry and its not clear really. Just want to know the alternatives to achieve the same results I guess.)

If you are a PC software user for train control, and you were starting over again, which software and controllers would you ideally use to set yourself up with if you were me?

My requirements in order of priority might be:

1 - Track detection with feedback modules to trigger switches and signals so that I can set up scheduled automated runs. I loved using reed switches with block sections for semaphores in analog until they would not fire properly anymore, and it yet it seems that its limited in a CS3 to create a cascade of events to get routinely triggered, or am i wrong? I like the idea of several trains running routes automatically while you control a couple of others in a yard or branch line.
(Another sub-question, can I use m83 to trigger feedback? I have about 10 of them.)

2 - Automatically scheduled Braking modules that truly work with squealing brakes and don't just stop a loco dead. If a loco encounters a block section occupied, it should know well enough ahead of time in order to have smooth braking with its lovely sounds and of braking and slowing throttle or whatever engine sounds they would have be they steam, diesel or electric.

3 - Sounds, most or all of them. I love the sound but its not an absolute game changer for me. I often leave the sound off to think and work on what I am doing. I don't like how Marklin lists the digital functions on their pages with a ranking system that seems to constantly outdate the previous generation of controllers.
Higher number CS1, 2, 3, then more sounds and function. I mean it make sense, but it seems with a bit of foresight they would have allowed for enough space to trigger tiny sound files in their system. Of course I know the controllers do a lot more than just enable the sounds and functions, but that's they way they are listed when 'shopping' for a lok by looking for details on the Marklin site.

4 - Interoperability between controllers and the reduction of redundant systems. THAT SAID... having easily accessible and direct control of the 6021 instead of tweaking menus is a huge advantage when sharing a layout with a friend or family member. I love the bright red numbers and push button controls. With a 6021 t anyone can learn basic control in a few minutes. At shows our analog layout was a huge hit with the direct control panel we built. We would pass out "Mädchenbahn Lokführer" certificates to the kids when they went through a few hoops operating the control panel. They would beam.
(You can see the kids working on the old layout and see the final result at the bottom with the control panel at the bottom. A couple of the shots are from shows. http://madchenbahn.com/show-layout.htm )

Message a bit longer than intended so I will leave it at this. If you think there are other important considerations I should take into account, please let me know. I am open to any and all suggestions at this stage.

Thank you all so much for this great community.
- Mark

Edited by user 17 May 2022 02:03:09(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline marklinist5999  
#2 Posted : 21 April 2022 13:50:41(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,659
Location: Michigan, Troy
The one shortfall of a CS3 is that it doesn't track and show where Locomotives are on your layout without a p.c. software app. such as Rocrail, etc. The ESU Ecos II and the Roco Z21 professional do.
Aside from that, they are all good multi-protocall controllers. The ESU has hard function buttons, like the CS2 does. The Roco has no screen, so you need a phoe w/app., tablet, or p.c. It's cab driver graphics are superior, and it can also run the Marklin "world operation" cabs. It's icons may not be as easy to decipher, or map. The CS3 doesn't access the Roco Z-21 cab driver.
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Offline blid  
#3 Posted : 21 April 2022 13:55:54(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 194
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I once started with a 6021 and PC connection and a Basic-program I wrote myself. I upgraded to a CS1 and then a CS2 when they arrived. I am now using the Train Controller software. What I noticed early on was that the software was able to issue commands for functions not yet available with the controllers (CS1 and CS2). The functions (above 16 as I recall) were performed by the decoders in the engines. That is probably the case with the 6021 as well.
I suggest that you download a program and test if this is true for you. A test version of most programs can be downloaded for free.
For automation a PC program is far better than any controller. However you have to have something that allows the PC to communicate with your layout. Not just the with the engines but also receive feedback. For feedback I didn’t want to go thru the CS1 so I had all my S88s go directly to the PC using a LDT HSI-88. They still do.
CS2, 60215, 4x60174, C-tracks, LDT HSI-88, TC Gold. OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#4 Posted : 21 April 2022 13:58:32(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,858
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
The one shortfall of a CS3 is that it doesn't track and show where Locomotives are on your layout without a p.c. software app. such as Rocrail, etc. The ESU Ecos II and the Roco Z21 professional do.


Will the ECoS and Z21 keep track of locos that do not have Railcom? I suspect not.

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Offline marklinist5999  
#5 Posted : 21 April 2022 15:43:36(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,659
Location: Michigan, Troy
They track better than a CS3 does as far as with automated operating per the lates Marklin digital webinar. At least thats what I understood.
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#6 Posted : 21 April 2022 18:36:07(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,083
Location: Paris, France
Hi
This may be a bit distorted discussion I think. Why?

Because tracking a loco thanks to Railcom is one thing but knowing the position of each loco on the layout in real time (in 10 ms increments) is a totally different matter.
Only a sophisticated software associated (like Rocrail) with a large processing power (a 64 bit PC) can do the job, a CS3 or ECOS can do something else but certainly not manage a sophisticated layout in a digital way. Why? because of a much reduced processing power, a ridiculously small screen, a much reduced storage space, much reduced connections with the outside world.
Don't try to transform an eggbeater into a color TV, please.
This is a marketing war between Märklin, ESU and others
The reality is this is leading nowhere.

A CS3 is fantastic to do a lot of things around Märklin trains:
- test
- program
- edit sound programmes
- command locos, signals, points

Rocrail can do a lot of things:
- send digital orders to a central station
- check the position of each train and of each switch
- perform very sophisticated measurements (train length, train speed, train type, etc)
- manage the length of trains and compare with the available track space in the next block
- execute schedules and conditional schedules depending on the good execution of an order (train uncoupling, etc)

There is little capability overlap between the CS3 and Rocrail
Note: in this argument similar software and similar command station play no role.

Just my 2 cents worth

Cheers

Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline blid  
#7 Posted : 21 April 2022 22:50:24(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 194
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I have now checked how my 6021 was connected to the PC. It was a 6051 Interface with a serial cable. I guess a 6051 box is hard to find and a PC with a serial port even harder – but not impossible.
CS2, 60215, 4x60174, C-tracks, LDT HSI-88, TC Gold. OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC.
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#8 Posted : 22 April 2022 09:00:44(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,083
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: blid Go to Quoted Post
I have now checked how my 6021 was connected to the PC. It was a 6051 Interface with a serial cable. I guess a 6051 box is hard to find and a PC with a serial port even harder – but not impossible.

Hi
Having to revive an MFX loco and its dying decoder, I used my 6021 CU, my 60212 CS1 and my CS3 in the process I can tell the HUGE difference between these command stations and if your budget allows it to switch to a CS3 and stop investing on a CU 6021.
My CU 6021 cannot process MFX, and DCC, has plenty of contact issues
My CS1 monochrome screen is not very bright, its power of 2.5 A is not enough, MFX registration takes forever, the booting up is very long, at the back the funny add-on connection to S88 old style flat cable and it cannot program sounds on locos.
Cheers
Jean

My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline Mark5  
#9 Posted : 22 April 2022 09:31:03(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,292
Location: Canada
Originally Posted by: blid Go to Quoted Post
I have now checked how my 6021 was connected to the PC. It was a 6051 Interface with a serial cable. I guess a 6051 box is hard to find and a PC with a serial port even harder – but not impossible.


All very helpful comments and questions. Thank you so much everyone.
I am really excited about getting things rolling.

Bild: You have an amazing history with the 6021 by writing your own programs (was going to say apps but thats kind of anachronistic) in BASIC. Impressive. I have been spending some time going through the Rocrail documentation so my intention is try it out with a simple layout. Good to know I can download the demo/trail version of other software to try it. And I do have the 6051 interface and a cable for the 6051 with a USB connection, so in that case, no serial port needs; I am guessing it will work. Finally to say that connecting the s88 directly to the PC sounds like a great way to eliminate the need for the s88link. So much yet to try it out after finishing kitchen reno... Crying Laugh

So now I am to understand that my m83 units will only send a signal and power to drive switch motors or signals etc and not receive back information from sensors, contact rail to trigger events, is that correct?

Jean: I was wondering if I were to use only the interface and s88s for feedback, would I need anything else. Is the old Memory box (60xx?) and 6040 Keyboard rendered obsolete by connecting to PC control and/or can the 6040 keyboard be used in tandem with PC control? Will using the keyboard show the position of the switch in the software?

One thing I noticed in the network diagram of the CS3 is that the Connect6021 unit is connected to another unit and not to the CS3 directly. So many intermediate units along the way. Budgets are in order.

I do have to say that your comment about not having overlap of functionality ...
"There is little capability overlap between the CS3 and Rocrail" puts the whole approach in perspective for me. The two have their domains. Now with the limitations of the 6021 would they still be limited to not serving DCC and Mfx as slaves, in so far as all the processing were done through as CS3. When you say the 6021 doesnt do MFx you mean cab control, which I am not sure I need, since my MFx locos will run with the 6021 if I recall correctly.
(Since going to the Big E and meeting up with Dale Schultz in 2020 the trains have largely been in the box over 2 years due to all the changes in schedules and worries of the crazy Quebec lockdowns. ...and with my girls now all teenagers they are more interested in school and social activities. Nonetheless they still work on modelling and crafts and suffer train movies with me so all hope is not lost for them. Laugh )

So far my plan is first 1) to play around with a CS3 and decide if I need to return it before 30 day return option is up. Likely not enough time to get to do the basics of what I want to do. 2) Then try connection to Rocrail in stages, first without the CS3, just using the 6021 and the interface, then 3) with the CS3.

Would anyone recommend a different path? I absolutely want a system that tells me where the locomotives might be if I build a sizable shadow yard, and the idea of just seeing it mapped it in order to trigger events that run the trains automatically, like clockwork, is a goal I have had since I first started arranging sequences in analog with the reed switches and semaphores opening and closing blocks and starting up different trains.

Very happy to have your feedback. It's most encouraging.
- Mark
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline kiwiAlan  
#10 Posted : 22 April 2022 14:18:23(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,858
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post

Bild: You have an amazing history with the 6021 by writing your own programs (was going to say apps but thats kind of anachronistic) in BASIC.


There was a book about setting up a digital system with a 6020/6021 and 6050/6051 interface that had many examples of BASIC programs. Its catalogue number was 0303, and was an A5 format with a grey cover. I think there is a PDF copy on the forum here along with a 6051 manual (scroll well down for both).

The 6051 also originally came with a floppy disk with example programs on it. I don't know if you have that, but again, i have seen a ZIP copy of the floppy, probably again uploaded to this forum. i can't see it in the thread linked above.

Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post

Jean: I was wondering if I were to use only the interface and s88s for feedback, would I need anything else. Is the old Memory box (60xx?) and 6040 Keyboard rendered obsolete by connecting to PC control and/or can the 6040 keyboard be used in tandem with PC control? Will using the keyboard show the position of the switch in the software?


The s88 units plug straight into the 6051 IIRC, and these will report back to the PC. If s88 units are plugged into a memory unit I don't know if the PC sees the messages, this arrangement is really for automation within the 60xx system. I also don't know if keyboard commands also get sent to the PC. Some of these things are best tried out to see what happens.

Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post

One thing I noticed in the network diagram of the CS3 is that the Connect6021 unit is connected to another unit and not to the CS3 directly. So many intermediate units along the way. Budgets are in order.


The Connect6021 should plug straight into a cs3, IIRC the diagram shows connecting to a Terminal, but that should not be required.
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Offline rbw993  
#11 Posted : 22 April 2022 14:47:08(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 885
According to Marklin System Architecture diagrams a 6021 requires a 60128 "Connect 6021" to interface with a CS2 or CS3 (IIRC for a CS1 also).

I currently have a 6021, CS1, CS2 and CS3 and CS3+ hooked together. After having used each of them for at least two years I would never use anything but the CS3's. It is fast, robust and the best choice for running Marklin equipment. That is not to say it is the best for DCC, writing software routines or programming and running other manufacturers' equipment on a Marklin system.

Regards,
Roger
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Offline blid  
#12 Posted : 22 April 2022 17:52:27(UTC)
blid

Sweden   
Joined: 02/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 194
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
FYI Rocrail, Train Controller and Win-Digipet all support Marklin 6050/6051. You can start testing with what you already have.
In my opinion a controller (preferably with DCC and mfx) is good for manual control and connecting a PC. The PC is good for automation like running schedules, slowing down in front of signals etc.
CS2, 60215, 4x60174, C-tracks, LDT HSI-88, TC Gold. OneGauge Marklin and MTH, ESU ECoS 2.1 on LGB tracks. MTH 3-rail 0-gauge, DCS on GarGraves tracks. Z: Rokuhan tracks, analog or DCC+TC.
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Offline French_Fabrice  
#13 Posted : 22 April 2022 18:38:19(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,416
Location: Lyon, France
Hello Mark,

A long time ago (many years), I've purchased a 6021 Connect, and plugged all the 6021 family stuff with a CS2.
If I remember well, I had issues when trying to send switch commands from Rocrail to the turnouts driven by the 6021/6040. I don't know if it was due to old versions of Rocrail, but it was extremely slow therefore not really compatible with some kind of Real time processing an automated train layout would need.
Another point, even if Rocrail is normally able to deal with the 6050 interface, beware of the cable between 6050 and PC serial interface. I remember having soldered manually the cable with TD, RD, CTS and GND to a 9 pin serial plug, with of course the nightmare to find out the right wiring diagram Blink .

All of this, plus the technology evolution, would lead me to recommend you to directly jump to connect Rocrail with the CS3, thru a PC hub or switch. It's much easier...
You may have a look at the first posts of this thread: https://www.marklin-user...ftware---Tips-and-tricks ,which will provide you the basics of automation...

Good luck and have fun
Fabrice
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Offline Mark5  
#14 Posted : 23 April 2022 08:26:30(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,292
Location: Canada
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

[...]
There was a book about setting up a digital system with a 6020/6021 and 6050/6051 interface that had many examples of BASIC programs. Its catalogue number was 0303, and was an A5 format with a grey cover. I think there is a PDF copy on the forum here along with a 6051 manual (scroll well down for both).

The 6051 also originally came with a floppy disk with example programs on it. I don't know if you have that, but again, i have seen a ZIP copy of the floppy, probably again uploaded to this forum. i can't see it in the thread linked above.
[...]
The s88 units plug straight into the 6051 IIRC, and these will report back to the PC. If s88 units are plugged into a memory unit I don't know if the PC sees the messages, this arrangement is really for automation within the 60xx system. I also don't know if keyboard commands also get sent to the PC. Some of these things are best tried out to see what happens.
[...]
The Connect6021 should plug straight into a cs3, IIRC the diagram shows connecting to a Terminal, but that should not be required.


Whoa! Alan, how could I have missed the common asked question thread with all these manuals!? This is the best homework assignment from M-users I have had in a while. I guess I have not read as much as I thought I had on this forum. So much valuable info! [Which leads me to a nagging question, do we have mirror server or repository in case of tragic systems failures?]

Blid, thanks I will try some tests with the interface and 6021, even if its slow, just using the Rocrail demo layout. I think getting a sense of the progression of digital tech development for MMR will help me with the way I think. The encouragement is helpful.

RBW. Great to hear your history and dedication to working with the Marklin line! Would seriously love to see that collection of Marklin boxes side by side. I could easily geek out on all the boxes starting with a "Marklin Super" or earlier... [...thinking of using my cord-corrected Super for lighting model buildings or for a vintage non-puko layout with my red box M items and Faller factory-built stations.] The 6021 and its cousins make me think of the vintage see-through Macintosh box computer in transparent blue and orange. Part of an era in itself.

Fabrice, thank you for sharing that development and the link. I am favouring that goal of CS3 with Rocrail, however, I can't resist hanging on to the 6021 family for control slaves just to get that pushbutton action since it would really be the CS3 that coordinate the response time, if my reading on the subject is correct.

I guess its really just as many have said, just gotta get my fingers in the pudding and see what feels like it worth committing my time toward. One of the flaws in my work process as an artist has been to want to do it all, from collage to painting to installations. That flaw creates a lot of excess material and packrat-ism. Aside from my budgetary challenges and limited space, one thing I never want to do is have stuff kept in a unsealed box and sell it with an x-ray of the contents when I am 80 or to leave it to the next generation that just wants to play Cookie Jam or a FPS game.

That all said, the advice here is invaluable to pointing me in the right direction and I am extremely grateful for it; try to thank every post that I read that gives me just a bit more. I would respond with more effusive thanks, but I already tend to be heavy on the digital ink. Blushing

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#15 Posted : 23 April 2022 12:24:20(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,364
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Whoa! Alan, how could I have missed the common asked question thread with all these manuals!? This is the best homework assignment from M-users I have had in a while. I guess I have not read as much as I thought I had on this forum. So much valuable info! [Which leads me to a nagging question, do we have mirror server or repository in case of tragic systems failures?


You're welcome! I created that thread as a reference thread for commonly asked questions / manuals / downloads, etc - mainly because I couldn't always find stuff myself! I hoped everyone would benefit from what started out as a selfish need! There's no forum mirror that I'm aware of, although Juhan does from time to time makes a copy of the forum to a spare server he has for testing purposes. I'm sure the hosting service has some redundancy and of course there are regular backups.

Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
The 6021 and its cousins make me think of the vintage see-through Macintosh box computer in transparent blue and orange.


There is a transparent version of the Marklin 6021, the Marklin 60211.

M60211-02.JPG

M60211-01.JPG
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bphxxupMark5
Offline Rwill  
#16 Posted : 23 April 2022 14:49:43(UTC)
Rwill

United Kingdom   
Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 770
Location: England, London
My Marklin "career" has always been digital. Starting with 6021 and keyboards through to MS2, then CS2 and now CS3. Happy memories of everything. The CS3 is hard to beat with controlled track plan and pictorial Lok and function control. It amuses me that when any of the kids visit home (now aged 40 plus or minus) and father is playing in the railway room they will shout "lok 72 heading to turnout 12 which needs to be on red"
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Offline David Dewar  
#17 Posted : 23 April 2022 21:23:05(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,058
Location: Scotland
Like Rwill I have gone from 6021 to CS1 Cs2 and now CS3 PLus. Never needed or wanted anything other than the Marklin CS3 Plus as it does everything I need and I enjoy driving trains and as the CS3 controls routes and shuttles etc why would I want any other software. Too much automation takes away from the hobby is just my view.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#18 Posted : 23 April 2022 22:23:01(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,858
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post

There is a transparent version of the Marklin 6021, the Marklin 60211.


IIRC that was a special production for 140 years of the Marklin company.

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Offline Goofy  
#19 Posted : 24 April 2022 12:00:35(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,553
There is several other digital system out there in the market too.
Märklin offer customer DCC protocol in the digital locomotives too so you can use other digital system by use DCC alone on the track.
I never use my computer to control the layout when you have digital system that do the work.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Mark5  
#20 Posted : 01 May 2022 08:55:10(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,292
Location: Canada
Ok Gentlemen and Marklinists, (not a mutually exclusive salutation, nor an inclusive one...)
.... so I manage to acquire the book 03093 CS3 "Large Manual" from Mike at Westend Trains this past week and today a CS3 for a discounted price from Trainz. I thought it was used and was a bit concerned since it was 25% off the price but looks perfectly new with not a fingerprint on it, so eager to try it out.
... Anyway, I then realized I do not have the correct power supply according to the 03093. So I have ordered a 60045 switched power supply. I have read repeatedly the need to use a "Switched power supply" and then noticed that the M83 power supply 66361 36VA is also a "switched power supply". Would this work or cause problem to run the CS3 on a small test track? I imagined that it only means it will not have as much power as a 60045 which is 50/60VA, but may be fine to do a test track and fiddle with and acquaint myself with the controller while i wait for a larger supply.

(... I also admit, I am not really sure what a "switched power supply" really means, as opposed to a regular trafo of the some VA but i am not about to use something that is not the correct supply.)

Thank you for your response in advance.
Mellow
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline JohnjeanB  
#21 Posted : 01 May 2022 14:43:24(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,083
Location: Paris, France
Hi Mark
As you know the CS3 is derived from the CS2 (same box, same size screen, almost same inputs and outputs.
There is one difference: The standard 4 pin power socket, common to the CS2 and CS3. 2 of these pins are used to bring DC (19 VDC or 15 VDC with latest 60041), while the 2 other pins where used to bring AC 16VAC from a transformer.
Well not on a CS3, those 2 "AC" pins are not connected.

Here is the power cable and its connector pin-out
PowercablePinout.png

The key difference is that the more recent switched power supplies are regulated (to 19,3V on all my supplies 60061 and 60101) while the transformer supply is fluctuating with the load and with the mains voltage. This results even with the most sophisticated and latest locos in speed fluctuation The input voltage is not part of the regulation on ALL Märklin loco decoders

So Switched power supply means DC regulated supply with a delayed over-current cut out.
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline Mark5  
#22 Posted : 02 May 2022 01:39:31(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,292
Location: Canada
1. I get that AC is fluctuation power, and that regulation means instead that Switched power supply its a steady controlled source of DC power...
So that in layman's terms... Its a more steady "regulated supply" of only DC power.
However, what do you mean by "delayed over-current cut out"?

2. Another question altogether... trying to sort this all out. In order to hook up my m83/k83 decoders to the CS3 and layout do I need to have both 66361/7 36 VA Switched Mode Power Pack and "60822 k83/m83/m84 Universal Power Supply Unit". Why all the extra power? Is that much power needed to drive the switch motors. I have 18x m83 units and 9x of the power packs, that I got a few years ago, how do I set that up?
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline BenP  
#23 Posted : 02 May 2022 13:26:42(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 86
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post


2. Another question altogether... trying to sort this all out. In order to hook up my m83/k83 decoders to the CS3 and layout do I need to have both 66361/7 36 VA Switched Mode Power Pack and "60822 k83/m83/m84 Universal Power Supply Unit". Why all the extra power? Is that much power needed to drive the switch motors. I have 18x m83 units and 9x of the power packs, that I got a few years ago, how do I set that up?


Each m83 get power from CS, just like track power (red and brown wires). No need for extra power supply for these decoders as they don't draw continuously. I have 16 m83s connected like that to a CS3+ without any issue. I do use a power supply for l88 (~$10 on amazon), although CS3+ does not require that (built-in).
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Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 02 May 2022 13:57:55(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,569
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Each m83 get power from CS, just like track power (red and brown wires). No need for extra power supply for these decoders as they don't draw continuously.
That is not true. The m83 has modes that allow it to control lights and other devices and in this mode it will draw power continuously.
So, depending on how it is used, external power can make sense.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#25 Posted : 02 May 2022 18:37:20(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,553
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post


The key difference is that the more recent switched power supplies are regulated (to 19,3V on all my supplies 60061 and 60101) while the transformer supply is fluctuating with the load and with the mains voltage. This results even with the most sophisticated and latest locos in speed fluctuation The input voltage is not part of the regulation on ALL Märklin loco decoders

So Switched power supply means DC regulated supply with a delayed over-current cut out.
Cheers
Jean


Even switched power use ac power from the wall socket.
If the power from the wall fluctuating the switched power supply react.
Fluctuating are seldom.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline H0  
#26 Posted : 02 May 2022 18:46:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,569
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Even switched power use ac power from the wall socket.
If the power from the wall fluctuating the switched power supply react.
Fluctuating are seldom.
Thanks for that qualified post.
When the input voltage of a switching-mode power supply changes, the power supply will react. It also reacts when the load changes.
In both cases it changes the frequency of the internal switching to keep the output voltage stable.

Power detonations or significant changes of the output voltage are extremely unlikely.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Goofy  
#27 Posted : 02 May 2022 19:00:12(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,553
Google translate are porr.
Strömspikning/ power nailing
In both case ac and dc power.
To produce ac trafo are matter of cost for the Märklin.
Märklins trafo are expensive.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline H0  
#28 Posted : 02 May 2022 19:25:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,569
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
To produce ac trafo are matter of cost for the Märklin.
Märklins trafo are expensive.
They buy the transformers from suppliers and sell them with a profit. No problem.
They buy switching-mode power supplies "Made in China" from suppliers.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline BenP  
#29 Posted : 03 May 2022 13:45:26(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 86
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Each m83 get power from CS, just like track power (red and brown wires). No need for extra power supply for these decoders as they don't draw continuously.
That is not true. The m83 has modes that allow it to control lights and other devices and in this mode it will draw power continuously.
So, depending on how it is used, external power can make sense.



That is incorrect.
The 83 decoder gives a timed pulse only (used for switches and signals), not continuous. The 84 decoder is for continuous power, like lights and motorized devices.
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Offline rbw993  
#30 Posted : 03 May 2022 14:31:19(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 885
The new version of M83, 60831, has different modes and can be set for continuous power for signals or other lighting along with lighting effects.
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Offline H0  
#31 Posted : 03 May 2022 15:58:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,569
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Each m83 get power from CS, just like track power (red and brown wires). No need for extra power supply for these decoders as they don't draw continuously.
That is not true. The m83 has modes that allow it to control lights and other devices and in this mode it will draw power continuously.
So, depending on how it is used, external power can make sense.



That is incorrect.
The 83 decoder gives a timed pulse only (used for switches and signals), not continuous. The 84 decoder is for continuous power, like lights and motorized devices.
The current version of the m 83, the #68032, has various modes for permanent power output to control lights. The manuals can be found on the website. 60832

8 outputs rated for 0.2 A each give a maximum continuous output of 1.6 A. That's the point where external power supplies make sense.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#32 Posted : 03 May 2022 16:53:49(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,083
Location: Paris, France
Hi Mark
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
However, what do you mean by "delayed over-current cut out"?


It simply means that the CS2, CS3 or Booster over-current protection must react faster failure of which the CS2 CS3 would reboot which would be aggravating.
This is also the reason why on these devices you select the power supply current (3 or 5 amps)

Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
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Offline BenP  
#33 Posted : 04 May 2022 05:24:18(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 86
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Each m83 get power from CS, just like track power (red and brown wires). No need for extra power supply for these decoders as they don't draw continuously.
That is not true. The m83 has modes that allow it to control lights and other devices and in this mode it will draw power continuously.
So, depending on how it is used, external power can make sense.



That is incorrect.
The 83 decoder gives a timed pulse only (used for switches and signals), not continuous. The 84 decoder is for continuous power, like lights and motorized devices.
The current version of the m 83, the #68032, has various modes for permanent power output to control lights. The manuals can be found on the website. 60832

8 outputs rated for 0.2 A each give a maximum continuous output of 1.6 A. That's the point where external power supplies make sense.


I stand corrected. Described my k83 and k84 units, not newer m versions.
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Offline Mark5  
#34 Posted : 04 May 2022 08:05:00(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,292
Location: Canada
1) Ok... so aside from switches and signals and signal lights (that latter needing the continuous power supply),
what are the other instances of using an m83? Curious to hear of your own alternate uses of using them.

2) Is there a limit of how many m83 or k83 decoders can be powered straight from the CS3?

3) AND since I already have the 66361 power packs to run power my 68031 m83 decoders, why not use them to lighten the load on the CS3? (in light of the cost of more units, knowing a limit number of m83 units attached to the CS3 helps determine the limits of its power burden.)

4) How many m83 units can/should be powered by a single 66361 36 VA Switched Mode Power Pack?
(...if I have too many, I can get rid of them) ...because now I will have to buy a 60822 to connect and power each group of m83 units. Another 50 bucks a pop. Crying

5) It says 110 to 230V on the 66361 power packs. I am guessing I can use a simple adapter plug and no need for a step down transformer, is that correct?

Answered myself already... Glare 6) Plus back to my original question that was unclearly stated:
....do I need to use the 60822 k83/m83/m84 Universal Power Supply Unit as a bus for my k83/m83 units. Not sure exactly how to connect them, sorry if that is dumb question. Might be in my cs3 manual or another one, but ...I still have equipment I have yet to put into use!
(EDIT; Ok, I see now where it says that you need the 60822 if you want to use the 66361 power supplies.)

Thank you all for the clarification.
So many questions.
Why is life so short??
......(rhetorical, no philosophical responses needed. Wink )
- Mark
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline JohnjeanB  
#35 Posted : 04 May 2022 14:32:00(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,083
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
1) Ok... so aside from switches and signals and signal lights (that latter needing the continuous power supply),
what are the other instances of using an m83? Curious to hear of your own alternate uses of using them.

2) Is there a limit of how many m83 or k83 decoders can be powered straight from the CS3?

3) AND since I already have the 66361 power packs to run power my 68031 m83 decoders, why not use them to lighten the load on the CS3? (in light of the cost of more units, knowing a limit number of m83 units attached to the CS3 helps determine the limits of its power burden.)

4) How many m83 units can/should be powered by a single 66361 36 VA Switched Mode Power Pack?
(...if I have too many, I can get rid of them) ...because now I will have to buy a 60822 to connect and power each group of m83 units. Another 50 bucks a pop. Crying

5) It says 110 to 230V on the 66361 power packs. I am guessing I can use a simple adapter plug and no need for a step down transformer, is that correct?


Hi Mark
1- One possibility is to command each output independently, another is to set an output as a blinker. These possibilities are described in the 60831 manual andf not in the newer 60832 manual. Have these functions disappeared? I don't know.

2 -Not really because the CS2 / CS3 activates solenoids one after the other.
Yes there could be exceptions if you program an M83 to last much longer (e.g.: 5 S) but in this case the activation is not continuous.

3 -Yes this is exactly what they are for.

4 -There is no real limit up to 5 PROVIDED you plug the units straight in line (no extension cable allowed.)

5 - It means that no matter the input voltage between 110V and 230 VAC is acceptable provided the frequency is 50Hz to 60 Hz

Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
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Offline H0  
#36 Posted : 04 May 2022 14:46:06(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,569
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
5) It says 110 to 230V on the 66361 power packs. I am guessing I can use a simple adapter plug and no need for a step down transformer, is that correct?
Are you sure? I think it only reads 230 V 50 Hz on the 66361 power packs.
Some folks say they also work with 120 V input voltage, but that is not specified by Märklin AFAIK.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline rbw993  
#37 Posted : 04 May 2022 19:00:55(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 885
Jean,
The functions have not disappeared. Marklin publishes a separate "Tecnhnical Manual" for the 60832. It can be found on the Marklin website.

Regards,
Roger
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Offline Mark5  
#38 Posted : 04 May 2022 22:10:35(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,292
Location: Canada
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
5) It says 110 to 230V on the 66361 power packs. I am guessing I can use a simple adapter plug and no need for a step down transformer, is that correct?
Are you sure? I think it only reads 230 V 50 Hz on the 66361 power packs.
Some folks say they also work with 120 V input voltage, but that is not specified by Märklin AFAIK.



I stand corrected, thank you Tom. My apologies.
It DOES NOT say 110 to 230V on the package material, or on the power pack itself. I am not sure why I thought I saw that.

So then in your view would it be best to continue using the step-up transformer with the pack if it only says 230V ....or is it ok to have the 60 Hz input at 110V if my voltmeter says the output 18DC, 36 VA as it says on the pack? I would have to test it.

As Jean says I can hook up 5x m83 units in series to the power supply so ...Either way I guess I have at least 4 extra units of 66361 in perfectly mint unused condition if anyone wants to buy them from me. ...And I will need to buy 4 units of the "Marklin 60822
k83/m83/m84 Universal Power Supply Unit" I can make a trade or sell them, just send me a PM or email.

That said, I will likely be trying to connect a bunch of m83s in series to the CS3 before even trying the 60822.
Hopefully this weekend I can begin tests I am waiting for the CS3 power supply to come.

Lots of boxes,
Mark
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline clapcott  
#39 Posted : 05 May 2022 08:34:21(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,347
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
5) It says 110 to 230V on the 66361 power packs. I am guessing I can use a simple adapter plug and no need for a step down transformer, is that correct?
Are you sure? I think it only reads 230 V 50 Hz on the 66361 power packs.
Some folks say they also work with 120 V input voltage, but that is not specified by Märklin AFAIK.



I stand corrected, thank you Tom. My apologies.
It DOES NOT say 110 to 230V on the package material, or on the power pack itself. I am not sure why I thought I saw that.

So then in your view would it be best to continue using the step-up transformer with the pack if it only says 230V ....or is it ok to have the 60 Hz input at 110V if my voltmeter says the output 18DC, 36 VA as it says on the pack? I would have to test it.

As Jean says I can hook up 5x m83 units in series to the power supply so ...Either way I guess I have at least 4 extra units of 66361 in perfectly mint unused condition if anyone wants to buy them from me. ...And I will need to buy 4 units of the "Marklin 60822
k83/m83/m84 Universal Power Supply Unit" I can make a trade or sell them, just send me a PM or email.

That said, I will likely be trying to connect a bunch of m83s in series to the CS3 before even trying the 60822.
Hopefully this weekend I can begin tests I am waiting for the CS3 power supply to come.

Lots of boxes,
Mark


If I may,

The wallwart power supplies of the 6636x series started life as
- 66361 = 220-240VAC
- 66365 = 100-120VAC 60Hz ONLY (as per the manual)

since then there has been updates as
- 66360 = 220-240VAC 50-60Hz
- 66367 = 100-120VAC 50-60Hz
(STOP Press, as of the recent 2205 manual release Marklin are telegraphing a 66362 i.e. UK pin out)
https://static.maerklin....5dca5840641651652794.pdf

If you are thinking of trading, then I suggest trading for a 66367 if your house supply is ~110VAC
However the recent items do state 50-60Hz,

Re: ROI, The 663xx may also be utilised with the the 60883 LinkS88

Re: 60822, Personally I do not use them for m83/m84 (the 663xx plugs in directly)
Peter
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Offline clapcott  
#40 Posted : 05 May 2022 08:54:07(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,347
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
4) How many m83 units can/should be powered by a single 66361 36 VA Switched Mode Power Pack?
(...if I have too many, I can get rid of them) ...because now I will have to buy a 60822 to connect and power each group of m83 units. Another 50 bucks a pop. Crying


As mentioned the default operation of a m83 port is a (200ms) pulse and as long as your CS3 is using the same duration expectation there will only be one pulse at a time when (meaningful) current is drawn.

HOWEVER if you are making use of the advanced port functions to drive a port continuously, you need to get your slide rule out.
Each port of the m83 is spec'd at 0.5Amp (# per port pair when using a 60821) even though the box itself is rated at 3Amps
So if you might be pulling all 8 ports of a single m83 at their specified maximum, then only that single m83 should be powered by a 6636x.

(Personally I would not bother buying a 60822 for this purpose)
Peter
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#41 Posted : 06 May 2022 00:06:53(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,083
Location: Paris, France
Hi Peter
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
HOWEVER if you are making use of the advanced port functions to drive a port continuously, you need to get your slide rule out.
Each port of the m83 is spec'd at 0.5Amp (# per port pair when using a 60821) even though the box itself is rated at 3Amps

On the units I have 60831 and 60832, the time is adjustable from 200 ms up to 5000ms BUT past 0.5 S, the activation is not continuous but drives a solenoid like a machine gun thus reducing the average current on these output. Besides for many of us, durations above 300 mS are rare, 200mS is the CS2 / CS3 norm and can even be reduced to 100mS using Rocrail (In this case the duration is set by the software with a fail-safe duration on the 60832).
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline Mark5  
#42 Posted : 06 May 2022 05:56:24(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,292
Location: Canada
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

If I may,

The wallwart power supplies of the 6636x series started life as
- 66361 = 220-240VAC
- 66365 = 100-120VAC 60Hz ONLY (as per the manual)

since then there has been updates as
- 66360 = 220-240VAC 50-60Hz
- 66367 = 100-120VAC 50-60Hz
(STOP Press, as of the recent 2205 manual release Marklin are telegraphing a 66362 i.e. UK pin out)
https://static.maerklin....5dca5840641651652794.pdf

If you are thinking of trading, then I suggest trading for a 66367 if your house supply is ~110VAC
However the recent items do state 50-60Hz,

Re: ROI, The 663xx may also be utilised with the the 60883 LinkS88

Re: 60822, Personally I do not use them for m83/m84 (the 663xx plugs in directly)


Ok. Good to know Clapcott. Looking at the label directly on the 66361 it says 50-60Hz so I feel ok about using this with a regular "shaver" adapter to the wall plug. (instead of using the step-up or trading them). I will send you the bill if it burns up. Wink

As for the 60822, I see now I could just try a number of trial options directly from the CS3 and as you indicated with the 66361 alone (no 60822) but the literature seems to insist that if I wanted to use the 66361 it was necessary. A bit miffed that it insists on this, as I just ordered one that might not have been necessary. Says on marklin.de "It is possible to have an outside power supply such as the 66361/66365/66367, only in conjunction with 60822." ...why would they insist on this, just to sell more boxes? ... or to err on the side of caution? And if caution, what are the potential problems with it.

Thank you for the feedback, gentlemen.
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline Mark5  
#43 Posted : 06 May 2022 06:12:33(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,292
Location: Canada
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Peter
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
HOWEVER if you are making use of the advanced port functions to drive a port continuously, you need to get your slide rule out.
Each port of the m83 is spec'd at 0.5Amp (# per port pair when using a 60821) even though the box itself is rated at 3Amps

On the units I have 60831 and 60832, the time is adjustable from 200 ms up to 5000ms BUT past 0.5 S, the activation is not continuous but drives a solenoid like a machine gun thus reducing the average current on these output. Besides for many of us, durations above 300 mS are rare, 200mS is the CS2 / CS3 norm and can even be reduced to 100mS using Rocrail (In this case the duration is set by the software with a fail-safe duration on the 60832).
Cheers
Jean


Thank you Jean,
So as current output is reduced are there still possibilities of solenoid burnout like there are in analog?

Other than current reduction to avoid burnout, I am not sure of the need to have such a wide range of use adjustable time from 200ms to 5000ms. ...um.. or wait, was that how you set up your water spout movement by timing them with Rocrail, as I recall reading a while ago? I am sure there numerous great applications, just need to get my fingers dirty and test out a few options.

Also if I wanted to use the old M-track solenoids for switches and signals would I need another one of the many M-boxes to switch from DC back to AC? ... or is it safe to use the m83 just pushing DC to the solenoid to switch it. Or do I not understand the process correctly?

And the circuit for signal lights bulb or LEDs themselves, they would/could/should be powered independently of the m83?

Thank you for all the feedback. It would be a minefield to do this without guidance, since I am not an electrical engineer.
But I am determined to understand how to make my probably overly ambitious plan to work.

Was hoping to use M-track and some C-track in the shadowlands and K-track ballasted in the display areas.
- Mark

Edited by user 06 May 2022 19:19:20(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline Mark5  
#44 Posted : 17 May 2022 02:05:19(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,292
Location: Canada
I'm finding these Youtube videos quite helpful for going over the fundamentals of the CS3
Has anyone else seen these, or found them useful?
Any other suggestions are helpful.

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam... so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
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Offline marklinist5999  
#45 Posted : 17 May 2022 13:45:52(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,659
Location: Michigan, Troy
Model train fun guy!
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Offline Goofy  
#46 Posted : 17 May 2022 21:00:08(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,553
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
To produce ac trafo are matter of cost for the Märklin.
Märklins trafo are expensive.
They buy the transformers from suppliers and sell them with a profit. No problem.
They buy switching-mode power supplies "Made in China" from suppliers.


No electronic are recycle too and of course does Germany do that too.
Not always are made in China.
Made in China are cheap produce but transport cost.
German workers are expensive.
No big deal between.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Goofy  
#47 Posted : 17 May 2022 21:04:23(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,553
There is a lot of video in the Youtube by check at Märklins CS3.
I like it and in this case it´s useful for everbody to learn about CS3.
There is also other digital system that shows in the Youtube how to use them.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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