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Offline Danlake  
#1 Posted : 02 January 2019 20:27:31(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,551
Sad news from Denmark...

Condolences to all the families that have been impacted.

https://edition.cnn.com/...in-crash-intl/index.html
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#2 Posted : 02 January 2019 20:44:48(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,071
Location: Brisbane, Australia
My wife and I have used that rail link many times when visiting our daughter in Denmark.
That is terrible news, and I hope they find the reasons for the freight being dislodged.
That has always been a fear of mine on both rail and road - freight not secured properly or subject to a sudden mishap.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
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Offline Minok  
#3 Posted : 02 January 2019 22:08:13(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
The current theory is that high winds had knocked on of the truck trailers off of the freight train that was loaded with truck trailers. This load fell onto the tracks, where the passenger train traveling in to opposite direction collided with. That could account for the damage to the remaining trailers on the freight train. High winds were present on this bridge, but not high enough to cause restrictions in traffic speeds or closures. A working theory is apparently that one of the truck trailers was empty, thus making it very light, and when the sideways winds hit it on the bridge it was blown off.

The unfortunate incident will certainly change the way Denmark regulates speeds and cargo over that bridge in the waterways connecting the Baltic Sea to the North Sea - its a very windy place at the best of times. Empty trailers might well be required to NOT have installed, but rather packed away side tarps, to allow winds to blow through rather than pushing the trailers.

Anyone that has driven on highways in high winds knows the feeling when a strong side wind pushes your car or truck sideways suddenly. Large trailers are more exposed due to the large sides that get pushed. If the trailer is empty, it can get blown over by a gust, and on a train that's no different.


Capture.PNG

Capture2.PNG

Capture3.PNG (1,146kb) downloaded 14 time(s).

(images from Tagesschau.de https://www.tagesschau.d...nd/zuguenglueck-103.html )
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline Danlake  
#4 Posted : 02 January 2019 23:41:40(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,551
It must have been a terrifying experience for the survivors on board.

All the fatalities occurred in the left side of quiet compartment while many of those in the right side escaped unharmed, according to Danish news media.

It was very early in the morning and the sun hadn’t risen yet when the accident occurred so survivors talk about how it was very dark and not sure what have happened. Many windows had been blown in and it was a cold gale force wind blowing into the compartment. And they are sitting high above the water on a bridge with a roaring sea underneath...

Survivors attended the wounded for about an hour until emergency service could arrive. And with road traffic closed on bridge (due to wind speed) they where very much alone on the bridge.

Apparently the wind speed was just below the 21 m/s limit where it would have been required to lower the speed limit for freight trains to 80 km/t.

Indeed a very sad day in Danish Railways...

Best Regards
Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#5 Posted : 03 January 2019 03:37:58(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,071
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Unfortunately if the driver survived, it will impact his/her life immeasurably.
Such a horrible tragedy.
Too many lives lost or changed.

One good thing to come from this will be a world-wide examination of how modern wagons are loaded, and what criteria need to be enforced to prevent similar tragedies.

There is a famous case in the late 19th century in the UK where steel plates loaded on a flat car shifted sufficiently to rip-apart an express train on an adjacent track. I cannot find specific information on this, but as a result, strict loading rules were established. Many loads such as timber and plate sections are loaded vertically to this day, and not horizontally.
A similar accident occurred on the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1947, when steel plate loaded in a gondola became dislodged from its mounting and ripped open the 4th car of a passenger train travelling on an adjacent track.
5 persons died and others were injured. While the load was apparently secured correctly, a chain of related circumstances caused the mishap.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
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Offline klarinettmeister  
#6 Posted : 03 January 2019 10:08:13(UTC)
klarinettmeister

Sweden   
Joined: 13/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 775
Location: Kirseberg
This was quite a scary accident. I was on the bridge 2 times at Christmas, first by train and then by car.
I feel sorry for all the involved people.
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Offline Danlake  
#7 Posted : 09 January 2019 07:52:46(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,551
Latest news is that all use of truck trailers (loaded onto flat railwagons) have been banned on the Danish railways from 8th of January until further notice.

The ministry has conducted new tests on the truck trailers and with present design and control measures in place, it appears its possible to load the trailer onto the rail wagon thinking it is secured and locked when in fact its not.

The ban will be cancelled when the rail companies can document (and verified by third party experts) that new control and or design measures have been implemented.

The wind criteria for transiting the bridge has also been lowered.

Will be interesting to see what the rest of industry does in Europe as I believe the truck trailers are quite common?

In this video you can see how they may load the truck trailers. The weak point is the “king pin” on the truck trailer which may not get properly locked in the trailer. A bit shocking that this issue has not been raised before...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RD_Cc59y1eY

Best Regards
Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline Minok  
#8 Posted : 09 January 2019 22:11:48(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
This confluence of events (not fully seated trailer or empty and light trailer + high side winds) just never happened before to cause a problem. I imagine the rest of Europe doesn't have the prevalence of side winds such as this bridge. The interlock at the king pin, which may have come loose during travel under the side wind for all we know) may need to be redesigned such that there is a visible indicator and mechanical locking that validates it is solidly connected and cannot work loose in transit.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#9 Posted : 09 January 2019 23:17:07(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,278
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
This confluence of events (not fully seated trailer or empty and light trailer + high side winds) just never happened before to cause a problem. I imagine the rest of Europe doesn't have the prevalence of side winds such as this bridge. The interlock at the king pin, which may have come loose during travel under the side wind for all we know) may need to be redesigned such that there is a visible indicator and mechanical locking that validates it is solidly connected and cannot work loose in transit.


Many trucks when travelling empty on the roads will leave their slide-a-side open when empty for exactly this reason. In the UK there are regular instances of trucks being caught by high winds and either overturned or blown off the road in high cross winds.
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Offline dominator  
#10 Posted : 09 January 2019 23:37:48(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,159
Location: Kerikeri
The video didn't show anyone visually checking to see if the trailer was secure. We did hear some clicking which suggested a locking system is in place but no proof of it actually working. Truck drivers normally are required to check their couplings etc when hauling trailers on the roads, so I guess with the railways, that responsibility now should be with the train driver. Is it.
Unfortunately you cant rely on computers to do what a man can do.
Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline Minok  
#11 Posted : 09 January 2019 23:50:45(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
The video didn't show anyone visually checking to see if the trailer was secure. We did hear some clicking which suggested a locking system is in place but no proof of it actually working. Truck drivers normally are required to check their couplings etc when hauling trailers on the roads, so I guess with the railways, that responsibility now should be with the train driver. Is it.
Unfortunately you cant rely on computers to do what a man can do.
Dereck


If it was a passenger train there would be much more interconnection, and maybe thats where this needs to go.

For freight trains, isn't it that there are no electrical connections between the cars (ie we cannot use any sensors that would communicate status), just the air hoses, for braking? I suppose one could use the pneumatic air pressure to drive a mechanical indicator flag that could pop up when there is proper pneumatic hookup AND the trailer is properly seated. I can imagine there might be concern that such a more complex system could leak air pressure and thus engage brakes during operation leading to other failures. But at least one then can more quickly validate a seated lock if a reliable system can be designed... vs someone having to crawl in and manually check (which puts a person in a hazardous position around/under the cranes and trailers in loading environments.

This is the way with our world. Once we have an occurrence that we don't want, only then do we most often take counter measures for that particular situation.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline Danlake  
#12 Posted : 24 January 2021 00:07:26(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,551
Latest news from Denmark. Last week all freight wagon was suspended again across the Great Belt Bridge and yesterday the Transport ministry sent a safety flash to all other European rail operators that despite all protocols being followed and the locking mechanism well maintained there may be a design flaw that result in malfunction of the mechanism.

Untill further notice all transport on rail with these types of wagons have been suspended across the Danish network.

There is more updated need on Danish, but this is the latest English coverage I managed to find:

https://www.railfreight....cket-wagons/?gdpr=accept

https://www.trm.dk/nyhed...-mod-laas-paa-lommevogn/
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#13 Posted : 24 January 2021 00:54:36(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,278
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Latest news from Denmark. Last week all freight wagon was suspended again across the Great Belt Bridge and yesterday the Transport ministry sent a safety flash to all other European rail operators that despite all protocols being followed and the locking mechanism well maintained there may be a design flaw that result in malfunction of the mechanism.

Untill further notice all transport on rail with these types of wagons have been suspended across the Danish network.

There is more updated need on Danish, but this is the latest English coverage I managed to find:

https://www.railfreight....cket-wagons/?gdpr=accept

https://www.trm.dk/nyhed...-mod-laas-paa-lommevogn/


I think i would want to see a picture of this wagon with the load out of load gauge. It sounds to me like the winds are doing similar things to what happened to the Tacoma Narrows Bridge (there is a video about a third of the way down the page if you are not familiar with it) and was aerodynamically designed out of the Severn Bridge in the UK.
Offline Minok  
#14 Posted : 24 January 2021 01:17:57(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
That does indeed seem a good direction to go in, as the intermodal design of the pocket wagon, designed to lock on a truck freight trailer, similar to how they are locked on to the truck cab/motor unit, are likely designed to cope with the sort of expected encounters on a railroad line. A bridge that swings up and down vertically may not be within the design envelope of the interconnect. I wonder if such a movement is within the design of the interconnect on the road going truck interface? There there are tires and shock absorbing suspension to accommodate some deflections in road way, which I don't think exist on rail road cars. Could lead to a redesign of the car's pocket interfaces if its addressable at all.

When the new Fehmarnbelt Tunnel under the Baltic sea from Germany to Denmark completes, it may be able to then direct the intermodal cars via that path, if the problem with the Great Belt Bridge cannot be solved.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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Offline Copenhagen  
#15 Posted : 24 January 2021 02:03:46(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 149
Just a small remark: the suspension bridge part of the "Great Belt" bridge is only for motorized vehicles. The trains are in a tunnel under the water. Besides that the suspension bridge is so massive that it doesn't move in strong winds like a light suspension bridge might do. The part of the bridge from the island of Sprogoe to Funen where the trains are up in the open alongside the other traffic is a different kind of bridge. A relatively low, almost straight bridge on concrete pillars.

(You can't have trains on the suspension bridge because the incline is much to steep, to allow the tallest ships to pass under it... having trains on it would probably also be a weight problem).
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