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Offline waterslip  
#1 Posted : 04 December 2020 20:23:30(UTC)
waterslip

Canada   
Joined: 19/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Quebec, Montreal
Hello Community,
I have a Märklin 37780 that I am running on an AC layout using a 6646 transformer. So no digital layout no train address.
The manufacturer clearly indicates it is load-regulated but I don’t notice it maintaining speed when going uphill (Or downhill).
I don’t have extra cars or any additional weight dragging its movement.
Is this normal? Would it be working properly if it was a digital layout ? How can I check if load-regulation propulsion would work?
Thank you,
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 04 December 2020 21:24:54(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,114
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Definitely your model is a FX one with standard motor.
It is not described as a high efficiency motor (HLA HochlLeistungAntrieb) so I believe there is no regulation (because of the simplified Fx decoder.
One aggravating factor may be the use of a transfo to feed the 6021 (but you have no choice with the 6021).

The result is that the rectified voltage fluctuates with the load resulting that even on the best regulated engines there are speed fluctuation coming from input voltage fluctuations.

Clearly on a recent MFX loco, with a switched power supply with CS2, CS3 there is clearly a good regulation at play where no matter the incline up or down, the speed remains the same
Cheers
Jean
Offline waterslip  
#3 Posted : 04 December 2020 21:33:01(UTC)
waterslip

Canada   
Joined: 19/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Quebec, Montreal
Thanks for the reply. I’m sorry I made a mistake in the description; I am using a transformer 6646 (not 6021). Would that be the cause of the issue?
Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 04 December 2020 21:39:10(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,114
Location: Paris, France
No, it would not.
Most (Märklin also) transfo have a voltage that changes with the load, up to 10% or more.
Switched regulated supplies have a DC regulated output (on mine typically 19.2 to 19.4 VDC)
The result is the envelope of the digital signal stays always with the same voltage.
This is a MUST for a regulated propulsion to be effective.
If you take a very well regulated loco but have a fluctuating input voltage to your digital system, the speed will vary.
Cheers
Jean
Offline waterslip  
#5 Posted : 04 December 2020 22:09:21(UTC)
waterslip

Canada   
Joined: 19/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Quebec, Montreal
So what can I do to improve the climb? And how can I check if it’s working?
Offline JohnjeanB  
#6 Posted : 04 December 2020 22:39:08(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,114
Location: Paris, France
IMO you have to change your digital unit (CS2 or CS3 powered by a regulated switching supply such as the 60041, 60045 or 60101 (depending on your country).
It may be OK to use an MS2 with its power supply, but on this one I cannot say for sure.
On my layout I have a CS2 with a 60101 power supply from 2012.
Inclines are no bigger than 3% trains are no longer than 1.7 m and on my layout I never had to speed adjust because of incline (all my locos are MFX with HLA motors.

Jean
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Offline fkowal  
#7 Posted : 05 December 2020 02:29:32(UTC)
fkowal

Canada   
Joined: 01/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 69
Location: Toronto
I did some quick research on German language forums about this issue as I have 37xxx locomotives with fx decoders where load regulation is clearly working on my digital layout. It appears the 37xxx series fx decoder has load regulation when operating in a digital environment only. It is not supported in analog operations. Load regulation in analog operation was added around 2012 in mfx decoders.
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Offline waterslip  
#8 Posted : 05 December 2020 03:35:53(UTC)
waterslip

Canada   
Joined: 19/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Quebec, Montreal
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
IMO you have to change your digital unit (CS2 or CS3 powered by a regulated switching supply such as the 60041, 60045 or 60101 (depending on your country).
It may be OK to use an MS2 with its power supply, but on this one I cannot say for sure.
On my layout I have a CS2 with a 60101 power supply from 2012.
Inclines are no bigger than 3% trains are no longer than 1.7 m and on my layout I never had to speed adjust because of incline (all my locos are MFX with HLA motors.

Jean


Wow Jean I must very impressive layout you got a lot going in a single space.
Offline waterslip  
#9 Posted : 05 December 2020 03:41:53(UTC)
waterslip

Canada   
Joined: 19/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Quebec, Montreal
Thank you for the enlightenment fkowal, I kind of figured because I ran another mfx decoder enhanced train with 64407 mfx decoder and seems well load regulated.
I am planning on upgrading my transformer to a 6021 and going digital. Where about did you read that info i’m interested in looking it up?

Thanks,
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 07 December 2020 11:20:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: waterslip Go to Quoted Post
So what can I do to improve the climb? And how can I check if it’s working?
According to the product DB the train has load regulation. That should also work in analogue operation.

You may have to reduce the maximum speed of the train using the pots because the decoder needs a reserve to get the load regulation working.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline waterslip  
#11 Posted : 07 December 2020 21:31:07(UTC)
waterslip

Canada   
Joined: 19/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Quebec, Montreal

Here's a little short video I took showing the loco in action, as you can see the layout is running analog using a 6646.




Offline JohnjeanB  
#12 Posted : 08 December 2020 15:17:30(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,114
Location: Paris, France
Hi Waterslip

Seeing your video brought me back when I was running analogue Märklin.
It also made me understand I owe you an apology:
  • I have not tested all my digital trains in analogue mode recently so I cannot tell really how they behave with AC. It could very well be that most speed and traction regulation is gone in analogue mode. The excuse is now we all know it is best to avoid ruining a 110$ sound decoder
  • I forgot (but thanks to you now I remember) that in analogue mode, it was really necessary to have sections with elevated voltage for uphill and reduced voltage for downhill.


So apologies and there is a real strong case for going digital
Cheers
Jean
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Offline waterslip  
#13 Posted : 08 December 2020 16:46:55(UTC)
waterslip

Canada   
Joined: 19/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Quebec, Montreal
I will be connecting it soon to a 6021, I will see how it goes and give you an update.
Offline waterslip  
#14 Posted : 10 December 2020 21:35:28(UTC)
waterslip

Canada   
Joined: 19/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 70
Location: Quebec, Montreal
Hello friends,
So I just got my 6021 controller and connected to the layout, ran the loco uphill at minimal speed and it worked perfectly, very smooth uphill climb and well regulated.BigGrin
Thank you fkowal for pointing it out.
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