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Offline franciscohg  
#1 Posted : 15 October 2020 16:34:56(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,224
Location: Patagonia
Hi all
In another group i stumble across some guys who use a booster to protect the command station. They connect the layout to the booster not using the command station to power the layout.
I havent heard of that before, has some logic, but, is really necesary this kind of protection today with almost all stations having galvanic isolation?
Any thoughts?
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 15 October 2020 18:28:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,817
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Galvanic isolation is not the point AIUI. The boosters also need galvanic isolation.

If a short circuit of any kind kills the booster, then it is cheaper to replace a "booster only" device instead of a "controller with booster" device. However you pay more to get started.
External power sources can kill a booster - the internal overload protection of the booster will not detect this.

If the booster is not connected to the overload detection of the controller, then you can still switch turnouts when the track power is off, provided you have a separate booster for turnouts. This can be a big advantage.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline franciscohg  
#3 Posted : 15 October 2020 19:25:17(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,224
Location: Patagonia
Hello Tom
My doubt finally is if a short circuit in the layout can really kill a command station with galvanic isolation.
If so, to feed the layout trough a booster seems not a bad idea at all.
I had a 60214 fried years ago, but was an early unit, with no galvanic isolation
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline clapcott  
#4 Posted : 16 October 2020 02:07:09(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,361
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
My doubt finally is if a short circuit in the layout can really kill a command station with galvanic isolation.

I would not be focusing on a "short" only.

From my experience the thing most likely to kill the output drivers of a 6021, 60212, 60213 (haven't experienced a 60216) is the miswiring of the layout - typically the Yellow accessory power being connected to the Red Track feed.

I , also, back the idea of not using the Controller to do the track work once your layout gets to the stage of needing a bootser.




Peter
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#5 Posted : 16 October 2020 15:33:43(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,366
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Hello Tom
My doubt finally is if a short circuit in the layout can really kill a command station with galvanic isolation.
If so, to feed the layout trough a booster seems not a bad idea at all.
I had a 60214 fried years ago, but was an early unit, with no galvanic isolation
Regards


Galvanic isolation has nothing to do with this, it is purely about destroying the outputs from the control unit with a short circuit (or more likely a low impedance circuit that doesn't cause the overload protection to kick in). The continuous current draw at a level that is causing the drivers to have a lot of voltage across them and therefore dissipate a lot of heat causes them to burn out.

It is easy to get to this stage with a derailment (say on a point) where the combined resistance of the feeder wires and the imperfect connection of the wheels or whatever that is causing the short will limit the current below the overload current that would cut out the output stage, but the output drivers cannot maintain the full output voltage, but in trying to do so will burn out. so as mentioned, some people prefer to use a booster as a sacrificial device to keep the control unit intact.


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bph
Offline rrf  
#6 Posted : 16 October 2020 22:11:34(UTC)
rrf

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 273
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post


<Stuff Deleted>

so as mentioned, some people prefer to use a booster as a sacrificial device to keep the control unit intact.

Hello,

If I decide to make the investment to implement one or more booster sections in an effort to protect my Central Station, can I still use the CS3 to control my M83s, M84s, S88s, signals and breaking modules without losing the benefit provided by feeding all of my tracks and trains with boosters? Or would they require their own booster to protect the CS? Note: I already use external power supplies for all of my blocks of M83s and M84s.

Regards,

Rob
Mackenrode Wende Bahn
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#7 Posted : 16 October 2020 22:45:51(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,462
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
They connect the layout to the booster not using the command station to power the layout.


This is how I've wired my layout - it is feed from two boosters but not the CS2 controller. It's cheaper to replace a booster than it is a controller.

Originally Posted by: rrf Go to Quoted Post
If I decide to make the investment to implement one or more booster sections in an effort to protect my Central Station, can I still use the CS3 to control my M83s, M84s, S88s, signals and breaking modules without losing the benefit provided by feeding all of my tracks and trains with boosters? Or would they require their own booster to protect the CS? Note: I already use external power supplies for all of my blocks of M83s and M84s.


You can connect whatever you like to the CS3's track output as long as you follow the rules around only having one device with no galvanic isolation providing track power - the CS3 does not have galvanic isolation, the CS3+ does (a really daft decision by Marklin IMHO). But doing so kind of negates the reason for not using the controller's track output in the first place.
Offline Henrik Schütz  
#8 Posted : 16 October 2020 23:41:38(UTC)
Henrik Schütz

Sweden   
Joined: 04/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 49
Location: Stockholms Lan, Stockholm
My CS3 has bern back to the factory for one year after it stopped deliver power to the track after a shortcut, every thing else worked.

I will absolutely run it with a booster for feeding the teacks once its repaired
Offline rrf  
#9 Posted : 17 October 2020 00:21:46(UTC)
rrf

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 273
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
You can connect whatever you like to the CS3's track output as long as you follow the rules around only having one device with no galvanic isolation providing track power - the CS3 does not have galvanic isolation, the CS3+ does (a really daft decision by Marklin IMHO). But doing so kind of negates the reason for not using the controller's track output in the first place.

Hello again,

I should have been more precise ... I actually have a CS3+ and so don't have a Link-88 with it's own power supply. My S88s plug directly into the CS3 plus's RJ45 port.

So my question needs to be re-framed: Is there any protective value for my CS3+ if I isolate my M83s, M84s and signals to a booster, in lieu of powering them directly from the Control Station? Since my M83s and M84s all have their own power supplies, the only thing drawing power from the CS3+ should be the S88s and the handful of signals that have built in decoders.

Thanks and sorry for the confusion,

Rob
Mackenrode Wende Bahn
Offline Minok  
#10 Posted : 19 October 2020 20:28:37(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,180
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
That is the approach I'm likely to take:
1) Power all track sections via boosters
2) Use CS digital power to feed decoders (M8x or embedded) and S88 modules.

But I imagine things are also often driven by the needs of the layout. If your layout is physically distributed over a long stretch of distance, it may make more sense to use the CS power output to feed a defined power district for cable running reasons, maybe pick on without switches in it so complex/problematic derails are less likely.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
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Offline rrf  
#11 Posted : 20 October 2020 13:32:20(UTC)
rrf

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 273
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
That is the approach I'm likely to take:
1) Power all track sections via boosters
2) Use CS digital power to feed decoders (M8x or embedded) and S88 modules.

<Stuff Deleted>

Thank you for your response Minok.

As I transition from last RR build season's Tisch Bahn of "Test Ovals" to the first phase(s) of a permeant layout, I will follow everyone's advice and plan for the following:

  • Start with a single Booster to power my track and control my M83s and M84s.
  • Other than the booster, the only components connected to my CS3+ will be the S88s.
  • Each block of M83s and M84s will receive their own power supply.
  • I will provide independent digital feeds for each M83 / M84 block, so that in the future they can be moved to new booster regions.
  • As the layout grows, I will add a terminal and additional boosters as needed.

Since I've built modular layout furniture (in anticipation of room and or house moves), it should not cause a huge amount of pain to add the new power regions. I do have one important question though ... should I keep a common ground ("O" / Brown) across the CS3+ and all of the booster regions? My thought is yes. But I remember reading a recent post suggesting that this is not a good practice for very large layouts.

Thank you everyone for bringing up this very important topic at an extremely timely moment, for my layout's final design.

Regards,
Rob
Mackenrode Wende Bahn
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