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Offline DasBert33  
#1 Posted : 22 September 2020 18:26:06(UTC)
DasBert33


Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,181
Location: Mortsel, Belgium
Hi all,

I recently acquired a Ae 8/14 37591 loco on Ebay. There were some shipping issues, the loco arrived in a totally destroyed OVP and was damaged, but that has now been more or less repaired. (Not that the seller wanted to give a partial refund, so I had to give my first negative feedback on Ebay ever)

Running the loco is rather disappointing, it speeds up downhill and slows down significantly uphill. As if there is no load control. Is this normal for this loco or is the decoder defective? It still has the original parts and high performance motors so that is not the problem. I do not recall having this driving behaviour on my V188 with dual engines?

To fix this I was thinking about replacing the default decoder with a ESU Lokpilot 5. I assume a single decoder can drive the 2 motors, it is rated for 1.5A motor current. What I am not sure of is what to expect from such a setup. Will load control work better than the original decoder, or will the 2 motors screw it up? Do I need to connect the 2 motors in parallel or in series for best perfomance? I am asking here because the conversion will take quite some effort as the original decoder is on a custom pcb. It would be nice to know whether it will be worth the effort.

(I searched for other topics covering decoders for 2 motors but didnt find any)

Thanks for any insight or previous experience,

Bert






Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 22 September 2020 18:52:56(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,143
Location: Paris, France
Hi Bert
I was surprised at your post because I have quite a number of locos with the same motor (Märklin's coffee grinder) which perform decently well, but are noisy.
But then, doing some research I found that this model raised a number of complains because the motors were not synchronized.
Here is an interesting post from a Swiss Enthusiast about solutions: https://www.stayathome.ch/maerklin_ae814.htm

On the other hand, in this forum you will find members who have transformed the 2 motors F7 using a MSD3 and giving good results. In this case, the 2 motors are simply wired in parallel.
I hope this helps
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
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Offline DasBert33  
#3 Posted : 22 September 2020 19:30:48(UTC)
DasBert33


Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,181
Location: Mortsel, Belgium
Thanks for the link. Despite searching I had not found this before.

I can confirm what is described. If you lift one part of the loco, revs go up on that part, and the other has no force. So indeed the loco seems 'weaker' with 2 engines than other locos with one.

Bottom line: one decoder will be OK. 2 decoders is better. no mfx in the latter case. I will need to test, and add a 2nd decoder if I'm not happy with the results.


Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 22 September 2020 19:44:35(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,143
Location: Paris, France
Bert
I think decoders have made huge progress between when this loco,was produced (2009 I think) and now. One mSD3 or mLD3 will do the job.

Two decoders in parallel is an overkill and a waste of money I think
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 22 September 2020 21:24:21(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,143
Location: Paris, France
Hi again
On second thought this may be indicative of motors wired in series (so as to reduce the current).
Without being too technical, when one motor is lifted -if wired in series-it develops a counter-electromotive force (it takes all the decoder voltage in lemon language) so the other motor would be left with no power.
I think I remember some 2 motors Märklin locos where the motors were wired in series. Series is not the best ,parallel is best for the decoder regulation to be effective.
My DB VT 11.5 TEE has 2 of the same motors as yours (but with ball bearings) wired in parallel and it runs very well with brute force.
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline franciscohg  
#6 Posted : 23 September 2020 01:17:15(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,224
Location: Patagonia
Hello
I have upgraded mine with a loksound5 wich drives the 2 engines with no problems.
I have used a 21mtc pcb similar to the one showed in the previous link, also provided by Herr Lüssi.
Very hapoy with the results
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline PeFu  
#7 Posted : 23 September 2020 06:43:39(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 779
I’ve had similar problems, now fixed:

https://www.marklin-user...ew-life-of-a-SBB-Ae-8-14
The Great Krok!
Inspired by Swiss railways SBB/BLS, C and K track, CS2, TrainController Gold V9
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Offline Johnvr  
#8 Posted : 23 September 2020 07:38:43(UTC)
Johnvr

South Africa   
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,201
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Hi all

I have recently done some work on the V188, a diesel loco with two twin motors.

The item was not working when I received it.
The motors would not respond to the decoder, although the horn sound could be switched on/off.

I decided to replace the decoder with a Delta decoder, connecting the two motors in parallel.

Having run the V188 for a while, I noticed how hot the locomotive was to touch afterwards.
Upon opening the loco body, I found the Delta decoder to be extremely hot.
Basically, I concluded that two motors in parallel was drawing too much current for the Delta decoder to manage.

I took the decision to remove one motor from the V188, leaving it with a Delta decoder and a single motor, the twin part being a dummy.
Now the loco runs beautifully again.
Probably not quite as strong as the original V188 was for pulling heavy freight, but good enough with a few wagons behind it.
I think that it was the right decision to make.

RegardsBigGrin
John
Offline hxmiesa  
#9 Posted : 23 September 2020 07:59:13(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,066
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: Johnvr Go to Quoted Post
I took the decision to remove one motor from the V188, leaving it with a Delta decoder and a single motor, the twin part being a dummy.
Now the loco runs beautifully again.
Probably not quite as strong as the original V188 was for pulling heavy freight, but good enough with a few wagons behind it.
I think that it was the right decision to make.

I would have done the same!
But I think that is the LAST option most of the members here would opt for.
I already run 4m long freights up and down the helix with a single loco. It is totally overkill to try to cram in 2 BigGrin

It´s funny how the human mind works; If the loco comes with 2 motors (why? in the first place...), it goddam well HAS to work with 2 motors!!! (or somebody will have to die). Well, there´s no real reason to do it! -except as a typical Märklin-gimmick. (of which there are sooo many...) IMHO, of course...

Trying to simulate double-traction or pushing service; Now THERE´s a challenge worth working on! ThumpUp


Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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Offline DasBert33  
#10 Posted : 23 September 2020 12:18:24(UTC)
DasBert33


Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,181
Location: Mortsel, Belgium
Well ehm, there are some real reasons to go dual engines I think:
- I recently converted my hobby startset ICE1 to 2 engines (4 middle cars now). With just one the ICE always struggled uphill making howling noises, and had a tendency to get wheelslip in some corners. Now it runs very fluently, no struggling anymore. Very much in sync too. I assume a push pull consist with regular cars would work equally well.
- I have 3 LUX modelbau cleaning cars. Up to now only my 2 engine V188 was able to pull them reliably around the layout. Other locos would often get stuck on grades. I hope the Ae 8/14 will be able to do the same after the conversion. (I cannot currently test the V188 and LUX consist, I have borrowed it to my dad for service on his layout)

I have a A-B-A Santa Fe F7 as well, currently with 1 HLA engine. It would probably also benefit from an extra motor, as it too has more tendency than other locos to have bad traction. I am even considering to convert it to 3 or 4 HLA motors one day, just as a motive power gimmick. (what else to do during coronatimes?)

Bert

(You now think my layout has monster grades and all, but that is not the case. I believe all grades are below 3% and the minimum radius is R2)


Offline DasBert33  
#11 Posted : 23 September 2020 17:04:16(UTC)
DasBert33


Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,181
Location: Mortsel, Belgium
Quick question related to the solution suggested above:
Did any of you who ordered the Luessi PCB, also order the LED boards from him? Are they OK? I am asking because I made new LEDboards from breadboard PCB, but there is a lot of lightbleeding into the other light conductors when the rear white LED is on. I am assuming this is because the plastic cover is missing, but maybe I am wrong. Any feedback welcome.
Offline franciscohg  
#12 Posted : 23 September 2020 21:07:14(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,224
Location: Patagonia
Hello, just ordered the pcb. My leds were ok, but the part is available at Marklin online shop.
Regards.

UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline eduard71  
#13 Posted : 23 September 2020 22:41:09(UTC)
eduard71

Chile   
Joined: 27/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 242
Location: Santiago
I have the Ae 8/14 and also the V188 in both cases I have converted them using Marklin MDL/3 decoders. They can handle perfectly well the two motors and now the sounds comming from M[arklin Data base are just amazing.
I will take some photos. And will share here. For the Ae 8/14 there are two ways to do the job, you can replace the original electronic plate and use the solution plate from Lussy (a Swiss shop) it solve the resistor need for leds and converts the loco in a plug a play with any decoder (more expensive solution but gives to you a better estetical view or you can work a little bit more using the 21 pin adapter that comes in the MSD/3 and you solve the led problem using some resistors.



Kind regards

IMG_3479.JPGIMG_3481.JPGIMG_3483.JPGIMG_3482.JPGIMG_3480.JPGIMG_3478.JPG
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Offline franciscohg  
#14 Posted : 23 September 2020 23:03:10(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,224
Location: Patagonia
Hi
Here is a short video of my Ae8/14 with a loksound5.
Regards

UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline Dave Banks  
#15 Posted : 23 September 2020 23:17:26(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,003
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Hello Bert, I had the same think happen to my loco #37591. Posted from Germany to Australia in a big box filled with polystyrene balls. Only problem was the seller never put an elastic band around the loco box & it climbed out en route with disastrous results. No compensation & got a negative feedback. Cost about EUR100.00 to fix. Converted using ESU MFX sound decoder V3.0 & Leussi board #8015 "8 pin" at the time.Now you can get #8015mtc with "21 pins". I did this sound conversion years ago but thought I would share it with you:

[img]UserPostedImage[/img]

[img]UserPostedImage[/img]

[img]UserPostedImage[/img]

I would ask if anyone has perfected an ESU V3.0 MFX loksound for this loco & has saved the file please PM me. I am not totally happy with what I have & could do with a better sound profile.

Thanks Dave...
D.A.Banks
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Offline DasBert33  
#16 Posted : 17 October 2020 17:48:10(UTC)
DasBert33


Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,181
Location: Mortsel, Belgium
Hi all,

Here is an update on my Ae8/14.

It took a while before they were sent, but I received the PCBs with from luessi.ch to change the decoder. I got the 8051mtc version and I also ordered LED boards to replace the original yellow LEDs. One remark, the 8051mtc is actually designed to work together with the original LEDs, not so much with the new LED boards. For the new LED board, if you want to use the red LED you need seperate function outputs for the white LEDs, to be able to disable them. You also need to modify the original PCB (replace some resistors with 0R and remove the diodes). I digitized the loco using a Lokpilot5 MKL. The "MKL" has amplified outputs on AUX3/4 so that they can be used for the LEDs. I connected the front lights to F0 f/r, the single white rear leds to aux3/4 and the red leds to aux1/2. With some function mapping you can then program them as required. The AUX3/4 are not made available on the PCB on seperate pads sadly, so you have to solder to the mtc21 pins.
To note, with the new LEDs there is some light leakage when the single rear LED is on. This can be fixed by cutting a piece of the light conductor, I removed about 1cm in the middle, and the light leakage is gone. You can easily remove it before cutting.
As for motor control, it is much better now, no more speeding up on descents or slowing down on climbs. Currently I am still using the default profile for 5* motors, but I will try to get the behaviour even better. If you have any tips for motor parameters for a Lokpilot 5 driving 2 motors, please put them here.

Bert





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