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Offline ocram63_uk  
#1 Posted : 02 June 2020 16:03:08(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 342
Location: England, Suffolk
in my previous thread somebody asked why the, possible, ESU decoder in the 39120 loco or other similar loco could not be read from the ECOS. At the time, 2006, Marklin and ESU were still in partnership, after all.

ONE
On the 'Setup 1' tab -> 'Track signals' I left only DCC, RailCom and RailComPlus enabled.
I deleted the loco from the ECOS

With the loco still on the programming track I tried reading / writing a few CVs but all I got was the 'Error' message after every attempt.

TWO
M4 'Track signals' enabled, with and without 'Fast Rebind' option, and mfx recognition kicked in thus loading the loco automatically as expected.

THREE
Motorola 'Track signals' enabled, manually wrote CV1=3 in the Motorola entry section, loaded the loco in one throttle but there is no response. I tried all the possible Motorola 14, 27, 28, Fx-14 protocols

Is this enough to deduce that the decoder is, most likely ?, not an ESU decoder of the open type?
Probably it has been locked by Marklin when installed. Probably with a LokProgrammer the lock could be disabled, if this feature is offered by ESU.

If only M4 works this could be why the decoder's CVs can't be accessed from the ECOS on the programming track even though in 'Advanced' programming options all Drive Settings, Motor Settings and Function mapping can be played with but then it messes up the whole decoder.

I'm now looking into buying a new LokPilot 4 or 5 if these work on an SDS engine and ESU confirms it :-)

Thank you for your patience in follwing me.

Marco







Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 03 June 2020 09:51:47(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,752
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
If only M4 works this could be why the decoder's CVs can't be accessed from the ECOS on the programming track even though in 'Advanced' programming options all Drive Settings, Motor Settings and Function mapping can be played with but then it messes up the whole decoder.
Is your ECoS up-to-date? This should not happen with recent ECoS firmware.

Programming in MM mode should be possible. The ECoS has a tab for MM programming (should work) and a tab for DCC programming (will not work).

If the decoder in your 39120 has a blue circuit board then it is an ESU decoder.
Your loco does not have an SDS. All current ESU decoders should work with SDS and Compact C Sine.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline ocram63_uk  
#3 Posted : 03 June 2020 16:11:16(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 342
Location: England, Suffolk
Hi Tom,
So the 39120 loco has a Compact C Sine motor? Is this the same for all 39xxx engines?
Selecting the tab for Motorla programming accepts the CV1=X entry but the loco still retains the 'mfx' address.
I updated today to v. 1.4.8 but apart changes made to deal with LokPilot 5 decoders there is nothing new
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 03 June 2020 18:04:46(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,752
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
So the 39120 loco has a Compact C Sine motor? Is this the same for all 39xxx engines?
The 39120 started with Compact C Sine in 2006, but later batches had the SDS. I cannot see any difference between the performance of the CCS and the SDS.
The CCS had a bad reputation because of its jerkiness due to the bad driver electrics - "Soft Drive" tried to get away from the bad reputation.

There is nothing that 39xxx locos have in common except that they all have what Märklin calls "high-efficiency propulsion" (which just means DC motor after all).
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline ocram63_uk  
#5 Posted : 04 June 2020 10:05:26(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 342
Location: England, Suffolk
Hi Tom, I did some checks with the various Softrive Sine and C-Sine engine locomotives and their spare part sheets.
I know I'm too pedantic sometimes :-)

My 39120 has a "Softdrive Sine" engine, central motor, like a Roco one, with two/one axles at both ends that drive the motorised bogies as can be seen in these sheets
The "C-Sine" engine is like the old analog engine with copper and carbon brushes as it fits in the same place, this is why it is Compact I believe.

Now will a DCC decoder, ESU to mention one, LokPilot 5 work with this motor type or not ?
The controller board already exists in the loco anyway.

I will try reporgramming the Acceleration / Deceleration and Maximum speed CV in Motorola programming now that I have upgraded the ECOS to the new software version, 4.2.8 and see what happens
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 04 June 2020 10:40:10(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,752
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
My 39120 has a "Softdrive Sine" engine
A loco made 2006 (serial number) cannot have a Softdrive Sinus that was introduced a few years later. Märklin's documentation reflects the latest batches of the 39120, not the first.

The decoder interacts with the motor driver board, not with the motor directly. Any NEM 660 decoder should work, as long as load regulation can be disabled in the decoder. Decoders from ESU, Märklin, or Zimo can be used, probably also other brands.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline ocram63_uk  
#7 Posted : 04 June 2020 11:20:32(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 342
Location: England, Suffolk
Tom, where can I find proper descriptions of these types of motor ?

Only 39XXX and 37XXX use these type of engines ?

Load regulation is what other producers call BEMF ?

Thank you
Offline ocram63_uk  
#8 Posted : 04 June 2020 11:23:00(UTC)
ocram63_uk

United Kingdom   
Joined: 07/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 342
Location: England, Suffolk
Tried re-programming in Motorola mode, so only writing different values in the decoder varriables, the loco's performances degraded badly and I had to reset the decoder to factory settings.
Even with 4.2.8 software version nothign changes.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#9 Posted : 05 June 2020 00:30:48(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,158
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: ocram63_uk Go to Quoted Post
Hi Tom,
So the 39120 loco has a Compact C Sine motor? Is this the same for all 39xxx engines?
Selecting the tab for Motorla programming accepts the CV1=X entry but the loco still retains the 'mfx' address.
I updated today to v. 1.4.8 but apart changes made to deal with LokPilot 5 decoders there is nothing new


CV1 only changes the DCC short address. The mfx address is set by the command station. I don't know what CV controls the MM address.
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