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Offline kehdi737w  
#1 Posted : 19 April 2020 23:55:20(UTC)
kehdi737w

Switzerland   
Joined: 19/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 25
Hello everyone,

I hope you are all safe and healthy.

I have an issue with a RE420 ( 26615 ) with 5 pole high efficiency motor. After running for like 5 min when I try to stop at station the loco reaching very slow speed suddenly stops and does not start again unless I push it slightly backwards.

I think this is an issue with sole 5 pole motors because I also have and old dampf loco which shows the same issue from time to time.

The loco in question is almost brand new, well maintained, cleaned and not overoiled.

Anyone experienced the same problems?
Offline Dave Banks  
#2 Posted : 20 April 2020 00:43:28(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,026
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Two things immediately come to mind. Dirty tracks & especially contaminated center rail. Another is the loco being new, it takes a while for the anodizing on the new wheels to wear off & once that has happened you get better contact. Does this occur at a particular spot or is it random any where on the layout?
D.A.Banks
Offline river6109  
#3 Posted : 20 April 2020 03:46:17(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,726
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
OK, first we're talking about a Trix model which is 2 rail and not 3 rail. secondly what type of tracks are you using, and as Dave mentioned how clean is your track.

being 2 rails you only need a dead spot on one side of the track and you're loco will stop., personally I don't think it has anything to do with the 5 pole motor.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline kehdi737w  
#4 Posted : 20 April 2020 08:02:01(UTC)
kehdi737w

Switzerland   
Joined: 19/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 25
Hello,

Many thanks for your inputs. I am using Marklin C track 3 rail.

Track is clean and center rail well. I know this because when the loco stops as mentioned above the sound functions and lights stay, they don’t stop. So this mean energy is going to the loco, ut the motor at VERY low speed regime just stops.

It happens randomly ( depends whey I decide to stop the loco ).
Offline RayF  
#5 Posted : 20 April 2020 10:26:01(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,839
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
OK, first we're talking about a Trix model which is 2 rail and not 3 rail. secondly what type of tracks are you using, and as Dave mentioned how clean is your track.

being 2 rails you only need a dead spot on one side of the track and you're loco will stop., personally I don't think it has anything to do with the 5 pole motor.

John


Hi John, 26615 is a Marklin 3 rail set with a Re4/4 II loco and a train for Circus KNIE. I had to look it up but I can see why the 2XXXX number made you think it was Trix.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline RayF  
#6 Posted : 20 April 2020 10:30:52(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,839
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: kehdi737w Go to Quoted Post
Hello,

Many thanks for your inputs. I am using Marklin C track 3 rail.

Track is clean and center rail well. I know this because when the loco stops as mentioned above the sound functions and lights stay, they don’t stop. So this mean energy is going to the loco, ut the motor at VERY low speed regime just stops.

It happens randomly ( depends whey I decide to stop the loco ).


This is a classic symptom of poor contact on the motor brushes. Check to see whether the brushes might be worn down. If they are OK then it could be the tension on the springs that hold the brushes against the motor commutator.

To check if this is the case, run the loco with the body off. When the motor stalls at low speed prod the brushes with a toothpick or matchstick. If I'm right the motor will start turning.

You can gently bend the springs to get better tension.

Hope this helps.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline kehdi737w  
#7 Posted : 20 April 2020 10:32:40(UTC)
kehdi737w

Switzerland   
Joined: 19/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 25
Hi Ray,

Many thanks I will try that. Let you know
Offline Dave Banks  
#8 Posted : 20 April 2020 10:41:02(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,026
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Ok if the sound is on when the loco refuses to move all of the above we mentioned is out of the window. First & cheapest option is to retract the springs that hold the brushes & disassemble the motor. Is the brush area clean or contaminated? If contaminated you have oiled an area that really does not need oil.I personally never put oil on that end. I only put a dab of oil on the gear end. If dirty clean & resemble making sure brushes have free travel.You mentioned the loco was new so contamination is unlikely but must be checked. If the loco demonstrates this behavior again then we are looking for wires with bad contact or at worst the decoder can have an issue. I feel this is something simple you can sort out. Had this been a C-Sine motor issue it would be an electronic issue. Please keep us informed of your progress. Pictures are welcome & can often solve the riddle.
D.A.Banks
Offline kehdi737w  
#9 Posted : 20 April 2020 10:55:09(UTC)
kehdi737w

Switzerland   
Joined: 19/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 25
Hi Dave,

Yes loco is fairly new ( 5 months ) and almost 50h of running on it. I cleaned the motor at ~ 40h of running. There was no oil on commutator and poles. I had to remove quite a lot of brushes residue however. I guess is normal though as the brushes are worn out with use.

The problem mentioned above started almost after I bought it. After I cleaned the engine at 40h it stopped doing it and started again after 10h. I suspect it is connected to the fact that burshes residue builds up around the commutator.

I will do a small video of the loco behaviour later on and share it here.

Offline Dave Banks  
#10 Posted : 20 April 2020 11:00:32(UTC)
Dave Banks

Australia   
Joined: 08/03/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,026
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
That would be much appreciated. New brushes & a clean up of the commutator would not go astray. Make sure the brushes can freely move on the brass housing & there is no snagging. As I mentioned before no oil on this end. It just leads to a gritty grimy paste. #601460 Motor brush replacement. One other thing not mentioned is the possibility of a wire off / broken on the armature. It will still run but will not start up by itself & it will not run as it should. But I don't believe that is your issue.
D.A.Banks
Offline kehdi737w  
#11 Posted : 20 April 2020 11:12:28(UTC)
kehdi737w

Switzerland   
Joined: 19/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by: Dave Banks Go to Quoted Post
That would be much appreciated. New brushes & a clean up of the commutator would not go astray. Make sure the brushes can freely move on the brass housing & there is no snagging. As I mentioned before no oil on this end. It just leads to a gritty grimy paste. #601460 Motor brush replacement. One other thing not mentioned is the possibility of a wire off / broken on the armature. It will still run but will not start up by itself & it will not run as it should. But I don't believe that is your issue.


All cables look to be attached properly. The problem is not always. Usually after running for long time. Maybe because the motor warms up and something happens that prevents it from turning at very low speed.
Offline klarinettmeister  
#12 Posted : 20 April 2020 11:18:19(UTC)
klarinettmeister

Sweden   
Joined: 13/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 798
Location: Kirseberg
I've been having a similar problem with a Loco. The Loco got really hot and also the decoder.
I found out it had to do with the magnet. The plastic that keeps them together was very loose.

After changing the magnet to a new one I didn't get any more problems. The Loco was brand new.
Offline kehdi737w  
#13 Posted : 20 April 2020 11:33:01(UTC)
kehdi737w

Switzerland   
Joined: 19/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by: klarinettmeister Go to Quoted Post
I've been having a similar problem with a Loco. The Loco got really hot and also the decoder.
I found out it had to do with the magnet. The plastic that keeps them together was very loose.

After changing the magnet to a new one I didn't get any more problems. The Loco was brand new.


Hi, thanks for your siggestion. I will try to change brushes and rotor + magnet if necessary after that.
Offline kehdi737w  
#14 Posted : 20 April 2020 12:29:42(UTC)
kehdi737w

Switzerland   
Joined: 19/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 25
Update:

I changed the brushes and no change, the problems still appeared when running long time and trying to stop.

So I changed magnet, rotor and brushes all together with kit 60941 arrived today by post and so far so good. After running long time it does not show the issue again.

Lets see after more hours of operation if the problems comes back.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kehdi737w
Offline DTaylor91  
#15 Posted : 20 April 2020 16:45:22(UTC)
DTaylor91


Joined: 31/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 414
Location: Kennesaw, GA
Is there a large amount of carbon build up between the contacts of the commutator?
Offline kehdi737w  
#16 Posted : 20 April 2020 20:24:37(UTC)
kehdi737w

Switzerland   
Joined: 19/04/2020(UTC)
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by: DTaylor91 Go to Quoted Post
Is there a large amount of carbon build up between the contacts of the commutator?


There was after 40h from new but when I opened the motor today to replace it after 10h from first motor inspection there was very little build up.

I guess the old rotor commutator had some sort of problem.

So far so good the loco has not shown any sign of the problem with new engine parts.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kehdi737w
Offline JohnjeanB  
#17 Posted : 21 April 2020 17:23:42(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,123
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Normally, the brush dust comes after a long period (not 10 h)
This can be caused by;
- too strong springs on the brushes (compare with other M locos).
- damaged commutator (not flat with grooves) need to restore the surface with 1000 grade abrasive.
- bad brushes (it happened once with Marklin) need to replace.
cheers
Jean
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