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Offline ParisTsirchoglou  
#1 Posted : 06 December 2019 09:33:54(UTC)
ParisTsirchoglou

Greece   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece
Hello Friends

I have a plan I want to share with you, hoping that somebody already did what I plan to do (or read about someone who did it).

I want for some time now, to enhance the coal (black plastic representation) on the tender of my steamers. The plan is to use Noch Ballast Glue (in reality diluted transparent white glue) and Noch real coal.

I am fully aware of the potential danger of excess glue going to the electronics under the black plastic coal representation. I have this covered though (my main hobby is Historical Figure Painting, so, I am more than used on the rules of micro painting and diorama construction). Noch Ballast Glue will be used in extemlly low quantities with micro brushes.

I think that real coal on the tender of my steamers will elevate their appearance (and personalize my locos).

If I knew that someone did it … I would feel … safer BigGrin

Any input or photos, will be more than welcome.

With Best Regards to All

Paris
Era I and Era II German and Swiss Steamers and E-Loks. Proud owner of a Challenger (-;
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Offline amartinezv  
#2 Posted : 06 December 2019 17:31:46(UTC)
amartinezv

Spain   
Joined: 25/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 320
Location: Madrid,
Hi,

I did it in the past, I used basically the same method as you, diluted white glue, and real pulverized coal, I think it was from a Spanish brand Aneste, but it will be worth any brand, I gave a layer of white glue over the simulated coal of the tender, I put the real coal, and then with a syringe I poured the glue diluted with water and a few drops of dishwasher on the real coal, and that's it.
I did it in 2 or 3 locomotives, in the first one I liked the result a lot, in the second not so much and I liked it less in the third one, so I didn't do it again.

I show you some photos of one of them, I don't remember if the 2nd or 3rd, the märklin 3684

20191206_152940.jpg

20191206_153158.jpg

20191206_152930.jpg

20191206_153228.jpg

Best regards
Antonio Martínez
marklin, IB, era 3, Train controller
www.raildigital.es/davidruso
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#3 Posted : 06 December 2019 18:20:55(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,103
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: amartinezv Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

I did it in the past, I used basically the same method as you, diluted white glue, and real pulverized coal, I think it was from a Spanish brand Aneste, but it will be worth any brand, I gave a layer of white glue over the simulated coal of the tender, I put the real coal, and then with a syringe I poured the glue diluted with water and a few drops of dishwasher on the real coal, and that's it.
I did it in 2 or 3 locomotives, in the first one I liked the result a lot, in the second not so much and I liked it less in the third one, so I didn't do it again.


Biggest problem there is that PVA (even when watered down) tends to dry with a glossy finish, which is not what you want.

But what is the way out of that? Well I haven't tried this idea, but what happens if you put a layer of cyanoacrylate (instant) glue over the existing 'coal' in the tender than sprinkle the coal on top.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#4 Posted : 08 December 2019 10:43:46(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,663
Location: New Zealand
I put real coal loads into my 1 Gauge hopper cars using the contact glue / watered down pva on top solution. Obviously the coal pieces are a bit bigger than what you'd see in H0 (I used large pieces of coal and smashed them up with a hammer with an old towel over the top to stop the pieces flying), but they don't seem to be too shiny with the watered down glue over the top.

IMG_2495s.jpg
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Offline amartinezv  
#5 Posted : 08 December 2019 12:45:59(UTC)
amartinezv

Spain   
Joined: 25/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 320
Location: Madrid,

Hello

This is a BR 41 märklín 3082 with real coal on tender

20191207_104609.jpg

Best regards
Antonio Martínez
marklin, IB, era 3, Train controller
www.raildigital.es/davidruso
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by amartinezv
Offline ParisTsirchoglou  
#6 Posted : 08 December 2019 20:00:17(UTC)
ParisTsirchoglou

Greece   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece
Dear All.

Thank you very much for your replies and your photos!!!

Did my own testing yesterday on a scrap piece of metal figure base. First I primed with a simple black Vallejo Model Paint. After this dried out, I used Noch Ballast glue to fix some Noch Real Coal. As you all told me, the result was ... shiny!!! (-:
After it all dried out, I paint it all with a coat of Vallejo black. The final result ... nice "real coal texture" but way too black and monochrome. More than that ... I don't want to do all this on my precious steamers...

Next test will be done without the white "shiny" glue. I intend to use matt coat (AK Interactive is a good choice) as a "glue". We will see how it turns out.

Anyway all these tests are planed for next weekend.

Thank again for your feedback.

Regards
Paris
Era I and Era II German and Swiss Steamers and E-Loks. Proud owner of a Challenger (-;
Offline DaleSchultz  
#7 Posted : 08 December 2019 21:46:01(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Interesting topic, but may I ask... why?
Are you striving for greater realism, or is is the fact that coal is used to model coal?

I use black sandblasting material to model HO scale coal (and ash)...
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline PJMärklin  
#8 Posted : 09 December 2019 11:43:14(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,210
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
I put real coal loads into my 1 Gauge hopper cars using the contact glue / watered down pva on top solution. Obviously the coal pieces are a bit bigger than what you'd see in H0 (I used large pieces of coal and smashed them up with a hammer with an old towel over the top to stop the pieces flying), but they don't seem to be too shiny with the watered down glue over the top.


Hello David,

I admire your efforts to model the prototypical material! It looks great.

It has even become media fodder to hold up a real lump of coal in our Australian Parliament (for reasons I will not go into least they become incendiary on this world-wide forum of eclectic opinion !!!OhMyGod ) :


UserPostedImage


I thought the proporionate size of your coal pieces in the hoppers (to-scale) looked much the same relative size as the "coal" I sourced from modelleisenbahn providors shown here in the coaling area of my steam servicing facility, so your hammer-upon-towel method seems to meet international standardsLaugh :


UserPostedImage



The models in gauge one look fantastic.ThumpUp


Regards for a Merry Christmas,



Philip
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Offline Tom Jessop  
#9 Posted : 09 December 2019 21:01:24(UTC)
Tom Jessop

Australia   
Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 800
Location: Newcastle NSW Australia



Coal colour also varies depending on which colliery it is mined at , which seam is being used & which country . I have seen coal from the Hunter Valley in Australia which is supposed to be the best in the world for low ash content & low noxious gas content come out of a colliery washery in various shades of black from hard shiney black [ the best type ] to a dirty grey which is used in power stations on a continuous chain grate . So there is no rhyme or reason as to which black to use or even quality is sometimes used for locomotives .

In New South Wales Aust we have 3 main coal fields which have access to the same seams so you would think the coal would be of equal quality . It isn't , the powers that be on the railway hierarchy declared that the Hunter coal was to be used for certain engines , the Illawarra coal & the Western coal was used to be used for different routes . These different supplies gave better or worst steaming production .
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Offline ParisTsirchoglou  
#10 Posted : 09 December 2019 21:28:58(UTC)
ParisTsirchoglou

Greece   
Joined: 01/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
Interesting topic, but may I ask... why?
Are you striving for greater realism, or is is the fact that coal is used to model coal?

I use black sandblasting material to model HO scale coal (and ash)...


Hello Dale

If all tests will go well and if I feel happy on the results, I might try it ... just for the pleasure of making my steamers more beautiful. I have some era I Bavarian coal wagons with real coal cargo (straight from Marklin). Well .. the difference between these wagons and the tenders with the plastic coal, is obvious.

Anyway, for now I am just experimenting...

Thanks for the feedback Everybody.

Regards

Paris
Era I and Era II German and Swiss Steamers and E-Loks. Proud owner of a Challenger (-;
Offline kiwiAlan  
#11 Posted : 09 December 2019 21:43:10(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,103
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: ParisTsirchoglou Go to Quoted Post
I have some era I Bavarian coal wagons with real coal cargo (straight from Marklin). Well .. the difference between these wagons and the tenders with the plastic coal, is obvious.


The plastic coal doesn't distribute itself around the packaging like the real coal does?

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Offline David Dewar  
#12 Posted : 10 December 2019 12:45:39(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,341
Location: Scotland
I need coal to keep my two home fires going so considering the price of coal if anybody has any spare fax it over. Thanks lol
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#13 Posted : 10 December 2019 18:57:49(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,663
Location: New Zealand
So, Flash Dave wants a lump of coal for Christmas.......? Who's been a naughty boy then?
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Offline river6109  
#14 Posted : 16 December 2019 05:00:42(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,715
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
I need coal to keep my two home fires going so considering the price of coal if anybody has any spare fax it over. Thanks lol

I tried to fax it through but the weather report said I can't send a fax, its to cold in Scotland, I have to wait for a sunny day.

most of my tenders are full of real coal and I have several carriages also carrying real coal., I wished I've seen a suggestion before whereas the modeller used glad wrap in the hopper cars before putting PVA glue into it.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#15 Posted : 16 December 2019 18:08:13(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,115
Location: Paris, France
Hi

Some of Märklin reproduction of coal is poor so like some of you I glued (using white glue and coal-like black crystals to improve it).

On latest metal tenders the coal bunker is plastic and removable, so it is better to remove it before the "operation"
Here the result on my latest steamer

UserPostedImage

Sorry for the poor quality picture. It is extracted from one of my movies

Cheers
Jean
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Offline Jabez  
#16 Posted : 06 March 2020 14:00:10(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 636
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
Interesting topic, but may I ask... why?

Good point.
The scale factor means that finely ground coal does not have the same visual appearance as 4-6 inch lumps of steam coal for loco firing. Shininess, reflectance, angularity etc. Plastic or other substitutes are more reallistic at the small scale.
The coal inserts used to fill loco tenders and some wagons are not very realistic. Sprinkle a few lumps of loose plastic coal over them to greatly improve the look.
Jabez

I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
Offline thing fish  
#17 Posted : 07 March 2020 08:55:48(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 207
Location: istanbul
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
Plastic or other substitutes are more reallistic at the small scale.
The coal inserts used to fill loco tenders and some wagons are not very realistic. Sprinkle a few lumps of loose plastic coal over them to greatly improve the look.


I use active carbon used in water filters, it is the real thing, in proper size and gives much more improved look, you can lay a fine layer over the plastic tender coal. Just prepare white glue + water solution to keep the load rigid. Especially handy if you want coal loaded gondolas.

Alternatively you can use "grid sand" used for stripping old paint off real ships, they are very much like coal (pitch black and shiny) and come in different sizes (coarse to fine).

Talking about gondolas; real fine sand makes perfect load too.

C.

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