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Offline HO Collector  
#1 Posted : 09 January 2020 13:28:02(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 118
Location: Just north of London
This discussion https://www.marklin-user...4112-Crumbling-Crocodile made me curious to find out more about the subject,.
After a short Google search I found this, which goes against what I have always belived.
https://www.tapatalk.com...-can-be-done-t70956.html

Ben
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 09 January 2020 13:44:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,661
Location: DE-NW
A quick forum search will find many threads about this topic - just one of them:
https://www.marklin-user...boxcars---Zinkpest-today
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Markus Schild  
#3 Posted : 09 January 2020 13:50:39(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,801
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi Ben,

It's on the internet, it must be true.

No, there is really nothing you can do. Forget moisture and temperature. If a cast is bad, it will get the "pest", a little bit sooner or little bit later. But it will. It ignores the storage, the weather and your prays. It is not preventable. It takes not shorter than four years and not longer than 12-14 years that it will appear.

Regards

Markus
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Offline Michael4  
#4 Posted : 09 January 2020 14:33:33(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 401
Location: England, South Coast
I agree, there is no solution, I have experienced the same problem with old car and boat carburettors and any patching up with resins and re-machining just did not last and the results were hardly presentable anyway.

I emphasise that this was with 'zincpest' and not corrosion/oxidisation/and reaction with other materials due to damp storage conditions.

3352 is my newest loco. I assume that since it hasn't got it it won't now get it?!
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Offline Minok  
#5 Posted : 09 January 2020 21:21:56(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,149
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Go to Quoted Post

No, there is really nothing you can do. Forget moisture and temperature. If a cast is bad, it will get the "pest", a little bit sooner or little bit later. But it will. It ignores the storage, the weather and your prays. It is not preventable. It takes not shorter than four years and not longer than 12-14 years that it will appear.

Regards

Markus


Indeed - if the alloy of the metal is crap, then its crap, and the chemical consequence will inevitably rear their ugly head.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline skeeterbuck  
#6 Posted : 11 January 2020 21:34:01(UTC)
skeeterbuck

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Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 448
Location: Maryland, Baltimore
What I find so frustrating and maddening is that fact that, even a recent as several years ago we're still dealing with this problem. The incident that first came to mind is the American style boxcars that had this issue. It's really sad and inexcusable.
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Offline HO Collector  
#7 Posted : 12 January 2020 14:29:59(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 118
Location: Just north of London
Thanks guys.

Ben
Offline michelvr  
#8 Posted : 12 January 2020 19:13:31(UTC)
michelvr


Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,115
I've never given it much thought but now that my collection is increasing I’m giving this a second consideration! I'm hoping that with the prices we pay today for our model toy train that Märklin will only use the purest ingredients! I've read through the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_pest and it seems that it's mostly a quality control issue. The better control of the ingredients the better outcome and longevity of the casting.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia;

Zinc pest (from German Zinkpest), also known as zinc rot and mazak rot, is a destructive, intercrystalline corrosion process of zinc alloys containing lead impurities. While impurities of the alloy are the primary cause of the problem, environmental conditions such as high humidity (greater than 65%) may accelerate the process.

Since I’m relatively a newbie with collecting Märklin (2012) I have not experienced zinc pest. and I hope I never do because that would be very upsetting!
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Offline Markus Schild  
#9 Posted : 12 January 2020 19:38:44(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,801
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi,

I know that this a remaining error in the German Wikipedia. There are very few really professional analysis of the problem.
I recommend: "Schadensfallanalysen metallischer Bauteile: Eine Sammlung von 31 realen Beispielen aus der Praxis" (Damage analysis of metallic components: A collection of 31 real-world examples from practice) by Prof. Andreas Neidel. The book is partly available on Google Books and also in English.: https://books.google.de/...hadensbilder&f=false

Prof. Neidel excludes any secondary influences on the decomposition of the alloy.

In "Werkstoffkunde" (Materials Science) by Bargel, Hans-Jürgen and Schulze, Günter (a standard reference) the authors come to same conclusion: Temperature and Humidity can be ignored.

Regards

Markus
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Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 13 January 2020 09:22:06(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,661
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post
I'm hoping that with the prices we pay today for our model toy train that Märklin will only use the purest ingredients!
They still have sub-contractors (and sub-contractors of sub-contractors) producing locomotives and other items for them.
So Märklin are a bit detached from the place of manufacture and this limits their quality assurance options.
I guess this is not different from Brawa, ESU, LS Models, and some others.

I think that Roco and Piko do not use sub-contractors to manufacture rolling stock, so they are not that detached from quality assurance. Still I can only hope they are doing a good QA job.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline PhillipL  
#11 Posted : 15 January 2020 02:05:13(UTC)
PhillipL

United States   
Joined: 24/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 114
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: michelvr Go to Quoted Post
I'm hoping that with the prices we pay today for our model toy train that Märklin will only use the purest ingredients!
They still have sub-contractors (and sub-contractors of sub-contractors) producing locomotives and other items for them.
So Märklin are a bit detached from the place of manufacture and this limits their quality assurance options.
I guess this is not different from Brawa, ESU, LS Models, and some others.

I think that Roco and Piko do not use sub-contractors to manufacture rolling stock, so they are not that detached from quality assurance. Still I can only hope they are doing a good QA job.


I don't want to divert away from the topic but I have not had the quality issues with my Marklin purchases that I have had with ROCO items over the last several years. I have had locomotives (brand new) with non-functioning LED headlights, steam locomotives which have drive rods fall off, couplers installed upside down, springs that pop off and thick paint run lines on freight cars. Needless to say, I no longer purchase ROCO items.
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Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 15 January 2020 08:45:33(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,661
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PhillipL Go to Quoted Post
I don't want to divert away from the topic [...]
... but you do. Wink
Roco stopped using Chinese sub-contractors only few years ago.
Several members here wrote that Märklin "Made in China" has fewer quality problems than Märklin "Made in Hungary". Roco also manufacture in several eastern European countries.
Being able to check quality at the place of manufacture does not mean it is carefully done there.
I have a long list of complaints about Märklin including missing parts, damaged parts, parts mounted upside down, missing wires, printing errors and various other problems. And yes, Roco were not much better in the past.

But I do not remember having any problems with Roco items made in Vietnam.

Important is the quality the companies deliver in 2020. Faults from the past surely leave a bad impression and may trigger a partial or complete boycott, but statements like "I no longer buy Piko" or "I no longer buy Roco" do not help me at all without which items in which year had which problems.
If you have a good dealer you can get issues fixed for free. Sometimes.

The topic is Zinkpest and the way how Märklin take responsibility for the Zinkpest items is a shame. Legally items are out of warranty when Zinkpest shows, but buyers expect more than "we do not have spare parts".
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline HO Collector  
#13 Posted : 16 January 2020 21:43:14(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 118
Location: Just north of London
Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

A collection of 31 real-world examples from practice) by Prof. Andreas Neidel. The book is partly available on Google Books and also in English.: https://books.google.de/...hadensbilder&f=false

Prof. Neidel excludes any secondary influences on the decomposition of the alloy.

In "Werkstoffkunde" (Materials Science) by Bargel, Hans-Jürgen and Schulze, Günter (a standard reference) the authors come to same conclusion: Temperature and Humidity can be ignored.

Regards

Markus


Thanks for that Markus. Good to know that atmospheric conditions have no effect. Actually, my models from the late 50's and early 60's are well and healthy.
Do you know if the book was published in English? searched but found only in German.

Thanks
Offline Markus Schild  
#14 Posted : 16 January 2020 21:47:04(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,801
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi,

The book is German and English in one volume. The left column is in English, the right one in German. Just click on the link above.

Regards

Markus
Offline HO Collector  
#15 Posted : 21 January 2020 21:05:29(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 118
Location: Just north of London
Thanks Markus.
I will get a copy.

Ben
Offline Markus Schild  
#16 Posted : 22 January 2020 10:08:06(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,801
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi all.

Another document about the safety of zinc-cast and zinc-quality can be found here. Also with analysis of zinc-pest parts (in German):

https://www.bdguss.de/fi...et_von_Zinkdruckguss.pdf

Regards

Markus
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Offline HO Collector  
#17 Posted : 25 January 2020 17:05:31(UTC)
HO Collector

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 118
Location: Just north of London
Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Go to Quoted Post
Hi all.

Another document about the safety of zinc-cast and zinc-quality can be found here. Also with analysis of zinc-pest parts (in German):

https://www.bdguss.de/fi...et_von_Zinkdruckguss.pdf

Regards

Markus



Thanks again.
Unfortunatly my German is not good enough to understand this language level. The most I can say is "What a wonderful meal, can I have secnds?" Wink
Offline Michael4  
#18 Posted : 27 January 2020 23:38:04(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 401
Location: England, South Coast
As an aside another famous high quality German manufacturer, Leica, produced cameras around year 2000 with top plates cast from zinc rather than the usual brass.

Guess what, they bubble up over time...and this on a camera costing over £1500.00 at the time.
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